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seenitall

Wings muscle?

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If you watch that fight with Neil...Smith wanted nothing to do with him. It took Neil a good 35 seconds to agitate and slash Smith and force him into dropping the gloves (I don't blame Smith at all...Neil is a big time heavy weight). So my point is that you can have players who you can say "Yeah, that guy can fight...he fought Neil ONCE!"....which is basically saying that he can defend himself if he needs to. That's a far cry from having players who WANT to fight. We don't have guys that want to fight. Who thrive and get a kick out of pounding someone. So, people can say "this guy or that guy can fight", "these young kids are tough, have you seen the AHL fight they were in last week!". Doesn't mean a dam thing when they get on the ice with NHL caliber tough guys who will flat out hurt them.

To my original point, Kenny and this staff don't see a need for guys that want to fight. They'd fill that spot with skill and let guys fend for themselves on the ice. Without a potent power play, and an offense that struggles to score, this is a dangerous assumption.

the point was Smith got the balls. Most Red Wings do not. That's a problem for Kenny to deal with. There are options.

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If you watch that fight with Neil...Smith wanted nothing to do with him. It took Neil a good 35 seconds to agitate and slash Smith and force him into dropping the gloves (I don't blame Smith at all...Neil is a big time heavy weight). So my point is that you can have players who you can say "Yeah, that guy can fight...he fought Neil ONCE!"....which is basically saying that he can defend himself if he needs to. That's a far cry from having players who WANT to fight. We don't have guys that want to fight. Who thrive and get a kick out of pounding someone. So, people can say "this guy or that guy can fight", "these young kids are tough, have you seen the AHL fight they were in last week!". Doesn't mean a dam thing when they get on the ice with NHL caliber tough guys who will flat out hurt them.

To my original point, Kenny and this staff don't see a need for guys that want to fight. They'd fill that spot with skill and let guys fend for themselves on the ice. Without a potent power play, and an offense that struggles to score, this is a dangerous assumption.

the point was Smith got the balls. Most Red Wings do not. That's a problem for Kenny to deal with. There are options.

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I dont think we lack muscle, I think we lack heart/fire. After hitting Dats or Abby like that a guy like McCarty would have gone bezerk. Not saying that puts points on the board but I do think it really brings the team together and says hey lets beat these MOTHER *******

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Yes, it is. And hey, I'm the guy who's saying we should sign Ott and Westgarth this summer, and that Babs needs to preach a tougher brand of hockey to his troops.

But the real priority should be addressing what's really killing us, which is goals, for and against. Every fan of every team will say this, but here it is anyway, because it's true: we need a top-four defenseman and/or a top-six winger. If our goal (pun) here is to win the Cup, we need some high-end help.

Also, I'm still not sold on the Vanek-to-Minny thing. Like I've said, it makes sense, but it's all just speculation. As far as I know, Vanek hasn't said anything about it. As far as I know, no one close to him or the organization has said anything about it. It all started with a local Minnesota guy (a reporter or pundit or something, I don't know exactly) saying, "Well, this would make sense." And now everyone takes it as a given that it's happening. It probably will happen. But let me pretend there's a chance he might come here. Don't take my hope away!

Look I'm not disagreeing with you I'm just trying to avoid another "Suter/Parise" situation. Players that really could help this team just aren't available I know it sucks and we are not used to it, but that is the sad reality. The point I'm trying to make is, why not have some "fun" during the rebuild/tool years and add tough guys? Most people will agree that this team isn't a Stanley Cup Roster (even if healthy). Believe me I sure hope you are right and maybe he is going to come here all I'm saying is don't your hopes up too high, because of the Suter situation. I really hope! Kenny has a plan B this time, if he doesn't get the UFA players he wants.

The thing about Neil is, he is a very underrated heavyweight fighter, the guy can throw and hang in with the best of them hell he even won against Orr, it just happens that he is a pretty decent fourth liner too so people think of him more like an agitator. I'm still impressed with the amount of balls Smith showed in accepting his challenge but the point is, he shouldn't have to be the one who is fighting Neil. After the Ottawa game a guy like Dmac or Kocur would have gone absolutely bonkers hitting and punching everything that moves, this is the kind of fire and teambuilding a team needs.

Is it really fair to ask a 38 old Bertuzzi to do it all? I don't think so and it's not like the current fourth line does provide anything, they aren't scoring goals aren't physical nor are they fighting so if I) could Kenny one thing this would be it. What does this fourth line bring? I've never been a fan of the Tootoo signing and probably never will be, but the guy has been used in the worst possible way either Kenny really believes in this PP is our enforcer crap (*cough* without the perfect human and Homer *cough*)relaly? Or Babcock has been missusing him.

In an ideal situation this off-season would see Kenny signing Phaneuf and Vanek, add Westgarth + Mcgratton/Orr but the chance of that to happen is very slim, so I'm trying not to dream big.

Personally I really don't know which task is the more difficult one, improving the top 6 or adding a #1 defender...but improving the overall grit/toughness/muscle is for sure doable.

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Look I'm not disagreeing with you I'm just trying to avoid another "Suter/Parise" situation. Players that really could help this team just aren't available I know it sucks and we are not used to it, but that is the sad reality. The point I'm trying to make is, why not have some "fun" during the rebuild/tool years and add tough guys?

See, I don't really buy that there's absolutely nothing we can do aside from adding tough guys.

There seems to be this weird notion spreading in hockey forums that a lack of obvious possibilities means nothing can happen. There's always a deal to be made. Theoretically, any player can be had at any time, for the right price. Just because Darren Dreger isn't saying, "Certainly this is a possibility," doesn't mean there's nothing there. It just means Holland might have to get creative and maybe step out of his ultra-plush comfort zone and bend or break a golden, sacred rule of his to get the job done. I mean, had we not traded for Shanahan, people today would look back and say, "So, you think we should've traded for a premier power-forward? Give me a list of premier power-forwards who were available at the time and could've been had for a reasonable price. Shanahan? Are you serious?"

As for fun...I'd rather be winning with slightly soft hockey than losing with extra-tough hockey.

My big thing - and I realize I'm really beating a dead horse here - is that we only have so much time left with Datsyuk and Zetterberg, and "so much" isn't so much. We've already wasted how many years of their careers, and now we're going to bring back the '80s? I want to see us go all in (within reason) for one more run at the Cup. Easier said than done, I know. But I just feel like adding tough guys for the fun factor is sort of throwing in the towel on the quest for that one last Cup. Add those guys with whatever spare change and parts we have left over after having snagged a big-name player or two. Unless there really is absolutely nothing else we can do, and adding tough guys (over, say, a Griffin, or two, or three) is something that's really going to help us.

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Sorry, frank, I guess that was maybe a little overly negative. I think we're both on pretty much the same page. I just think tough guys should be "the final touch" on top of a roster that really has its act together. And I don't think a roster that really has its act together is necessarily unattainable, even if we keep striking out in free agency.

I'll add more in a little bit.

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So, you think we should've traded for a premier power-forward? Give me a list of premier power-forwards who were available at the time and could've been had for a reasonable price. Shanahan? Are you serious?"

To be fair it was well known that Shanny wanted out of Hartford. I can still remember a fan in the stands wearing a Shanahan jersey and a giant diaper in protest at his attitude.

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I dont think we lack muscle, I think we lack heart/fire. After hitting Dats or Abby like that a guy like McCarty would have gone bezerk. Not saying that puts points on the board but I do think it really brings the team together and says hey lets beat these MOTHER *******

Hey,but heart is still a muscle :lol:

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I just feel that certain things call for a response of some type.

Malkin intigating against Z, Weber smash Z, Dats gets an elbow, assholes going after Nyquist, and always mauling our goalies.

And there is nobody on the bench to stand up for them. Or who is WILLING to!!!

Goons and tough guys dont deter or scare anyone BUT they hold people accountable.

I hate Boston but they are a team who sticks up for each other. If you do some dumbahit against them you immediatly are looking around cuz you know the entire brigade is coming at you.

This entire video is such a wonderful thing to watch. Probert throwing warning shots at people then that sugar sweet sucker punch to Maguire while he's alread down on the ice.

Thats all I want. Do this when someobody f***s with your stars your teammates.

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I dont think we lack muscle, I think we lack heart/fire. After hitting Dats or Abby like that a guy like McCarty would have gone bezerk. Not saying that puts points on the board but I do think it really brings the team together and says hey lets beat these MOTHER *******

Yeah, I totally agree. But having guys who don't know how to fight going bezerk and getting beat up all the time would get a little silly after a while. Kind of...right? Like..."I'm going to go super crazy bezerk!!!!!" and then...BAM!!...they're down on the ice bleeding. Heroic but a little silly after the first few players are taken to the hospital.

Think back to 2009. Andreas Lilja trying to stand up to Shea Weber. Weber pummeled him. Like 5 seconds and he was done. BAM! Lilja was out for a year with a concussion!! It was kind of silly.

Edited by Learn2LuvIt

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In an ideal situation this off-season would see Kenny signing Phaneuf and Vanek, add Westgarth + Mcgratton/Orr but the chance of that to happen is very slim, so I'm trying not to dream big.

I can dig it.

I'm not a big Phaneuf fan, and my impression is that Toronto is where he and The Cuthbert truly want to be. But I do feel he'd do well in a situation where he's not the #1 or #2 guy on the back end. I'd much rather have Girardi, but everyone knows that.

Vanek is a no-brainer, in terms of sheer desirability, though he can be a lot like Franzen (in a bad sense), and I don't know how he'd handle being part of an ensemble cast. And he's going to cost a fortune.

I really do like both Orr and Westgarth, though I'd only want, at most, one enforcer. Westgarth is set to be a UFA, which is the main reason why I keep naming him and not, say, Orr. And, again, I just think (or want to believe) Westgarth could be an awesome fit with the Euro Twins. All that third guy really has to do is retrieve pucks out of the corner, dish them to Z or D, and park his ass in front of the goalie.

Personally I really don't know which task is the more difficult one, improving the top 6 or adding a #1 defender...but improving the overall grit/toughness/muscle is for sure doable.

I can respect that last bit (toughness being doable). Because it's true. And I'm absolutely 100% in favor of this team getting tougher overall. I'd just want them to be smart about it. I'd want it to be something that makes a lot of sense for the team, that would be done to make us more competitive and help us win more games and ultimately another Cup. Something, um, "organic"?

As for the first part - I'd say that, in general, adding a #1 defender is definitely the more daunting, difficult task. We should feel very fortunate to have a guy as good as Kronwall is. If there's an issue with him, it's that he's forced to be The Undisputed Guy on our blue line. It's him, two guys who are solid but not as good as him, and a whole lot of nothing beyond that. It's a pretty good top three, that's it. Which might be ok if we could score 3-4 goals a game, but, as we all know, today's Red Wings suck at scoring. There is so much riding on DeKeyser continuing to amaze (and not continuing to get injured) and Smith making very big strides in a short span of time, and Ericsson being as good as he can be without any kind of relapse. And so the other three guys really have to pull their weight. The situation worries me, even with the likes of XO and Sproul coming up.

Y'know, I've been saying we need a high-end defenseman, but, given what I just said (that great defensemen are, generally, very hard to come by, and an average top four might be good enough if offense isn't an issue), maybe it would make more sense to "front load" the roster, i.e. load up on offensive weapons. Maybe that would complement the more intense and aggressive style of hockey that Babs would be preaching in my fantasy version of things. Just a thought.

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Yeah Vanek is easily going to be the most thought after UFA this year, he is going to get paid the only question remaining is on which team. The guy is a clutch scorer, sometimes streaky but other than that I think he would be a real nice addition on a line with Pasha or Z.

Phaneuf could be the QB on the PP something really really needed but like you said I doubt, he will leave his current team. Agreed, a highend defenseman is needed and kenny could have offersheeted one of them, with an ever rising cap paying Pietrangelo 8x8 wouldh ave been a nice offersheet there is no way the St. Louis Blues who are hurting for money would have matched that. I think, Girardi would be a solid choicce nothing impressive but...solid.

I like the idea of playing Westgarth on Pashas line, the guy would create a lot of space and keep other teams honest.Personally, I wouldn't be against taking a chance at Tyler Myers if he gets bought out this summer.

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