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seenitall

Wings muscle?

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Probert, and Kocur mentioned in their book 'The Bruise Bros' that they did their best to protect the stars - however every so often a cheap shot was taken against one of the skilled guys...If they couldn't take care of it that game - there was always the next game where they could finish their business...Many opponents had to keep their head on a swivel when Probie/Joey were on the ice, and that to some extent created some space for others.

Indeed, times have changed a lot since those days, but the principle remains the same. I dont think it is a coicidence that enforcers are highly regarded teammates.

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I agree but it doesn't need to be a goon. Guys like lapointe and shanahan were the best. Guys who can do a little everything and but also have the toughness to hit and fight when needed. We've seen glimpses from like Smith and Ericsson but not enough.

Guys who use their body, can share, score, hit and sometimes fights are what we need. Unfortunately they're hard to find especially since wed rather keep our undersized pass first players over guys that we NEED.

Just another reason I'd like to see Mitchell Callahan on the team next year. And I really hope McKee progresses far enough to at least make this team as a forward if his D isn't up to snuff. Nothing like a giant animal on your 4th line.

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Indeed, times have changed a lot since those days, but the principle remains the same. I dont think it is a coicidence that enforcers are highly regarded teammates.

No, it's not a coincidence at all. They're great team mates. I don't think anyone would deny that. And, as we all know, some of today's most notable enforcers are actually Ivy Leaguers, so it's not like they're all big dumb animals.

But, at the same time, being a great team mate isn't everything. Well, it sort of is everything. But you could argue that catering to that wouldn't be too far removed from what Holland is often accused of being, which is overly sentimental and loyal and all that, to the point where it's actually detrimental to the team's ability to win games and, ultimately, Cups. Do we need a guy? Maybe. But let's not go overboard. We're not "getting run" every game of every season.

I do like my Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Westgarth idea, though. I'll proudly own that. But that's about as far as I'll wade into the NEED MOAR FIGHTERS pool.

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We have no muscle and this is by design. Our toughest guys might be....Bert?...Big E? ..Abby? I don't know why the disbelief or questions. A lot of fans frequently beat the "call up the young guys from Grand Rapids!!" drum and these are all young, skill, mostly Euro players. Kenny and our staff want it this way. The players we acquire via trade are not tough guys at all (except for Tootoo who we quickly found no use for). They are okay with getting pushed around after the whistle. They are okay with a player getting hammered and with no answer back or retaliation.

You see....we are sort of stuck in a quasi time vacuum. Kenny and his staff (IMO) are still stuck on this old notion that USED to work magic for us. That notion is this: play hard, little if any chirping after the whistle. No sticks up. No emotional retaliation penalties. Take your lumps. Take the penalty and...accomplish two huge objectives....frustrate the hell out of the opposing team and make them pay on the power play. Worked like a charm! Gosh, I remember how Homer (Lids, Stevie, even Dallas Drake) used to drive the opposing players absolutley NUTS because he wouldn't retaliate. Malts and Draps, same thing. A little bit of chirping, but never any physical retaliation. It would fester and teams would get so frustrated they would take penalties and end up in the box. Then, we would capitalize with a really potent power play. We Win.

It's way different now. We don't frustrate teams like we used to. We don't have a power play that teams fear. People are mentioning Mac, Joey, Bob, Martin, Shanny...I get it. But except for Shanny, we threw out the need for Joey, Martin, Mac type of player when Scotty came aboard. Scotty wanted this type of player...but didn't NEED one. This carried on with Dave Lewis and then Babs. Kill them with skill. We don't have the offensive skill top to bottom to kill like we used to.

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i would love to see this team with more grit. guys that finish checks and play a harder style. thats why i think tootoo deserves to be on this roster.

but unfortunately, all we get to talk about this year is how we need more fighters to protect our stars. i think dabura hit it on the head perfectly. having tough players on your team does NOT prevent cheap shots. it just gives fans some sense of payback to make us feel better. teams that play tough still get injured. teams that play tough still have dirty plays against. it sucks that datsyuk took that elbow from cowen, it really does. but would having mcgrattan on our team have stopped it? doubt it. it was an in the moment, stick out a body part to get a piece of a guy type move. heck, boston is the poster child for tough teams and yet neal did IMO one of the dirtiest things all season by kneeing marchand. neal doesnt care. he wont have to fight anyone. or if he does it will be some hugfest like all the other crappy fights in the nhl these days.

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We have no muscle and this is by design. Our toughest guys might be....Bert?...Big E? ..Abby? I don't know why the disbelief or questions. A lot of fans frequently beat the "call up the young guys from Grand Rapids!!" drum and these are all young, skill, mostly Euro players. Kenny and our staff want it this way. The players we acquire via trade are not tough guys at all (except for Tootoo who we quickly found no use for). They are okay with getting pushed around after the whistle. They are okay with a player getting hammered and with no answer back or retaliation.

You haven't watched this GR team much have you? They fight.........a lot. Seriously, all you fight fans need to make an effort to watch more of their games, they are exactly the type of team you would love to watch. They played Milwaukee twice this weekend and there were tons of scraps. There was even a moment when an enforcer "policed" the ice exactly like you guys said they do! Pretty funny actually watching an Admiral trying to start ****, then Tootoo skates over and this guy suddenly remembers he needs to be somewhere else :lol:

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Are three enforcers needed? Hardly would I love a fourth line like the one mentioned? You bet ! I'm a big believer in sending a clear and loud message out to this division, conference and league wide! Yes, this team used to get away with skill and why was that? Well a bunch of Hockey Hall of Famers and some rough diamonds were found (Pasha + Z), allowing younger players to learn from the best. Having the PP as an enforcer when your offense is loaded with talent and gets support from a top 3 alltime defender + Holmer blocking the sun infront of the net is easy, but the reality IS

The 2013 edition is a different one, the PP sucks, the overall skill has dimished greatly and other teams don't fear the PP anymore, so why not rough them up? There won't b e a retailation, deadly PP - like I used to be - or anything like that. Crying for Shanahan to help out and ban that ******* Cowen, is not going to do anything...Having someone to take care of business and either going after Cowen or one of their star players is going to sent out a big clear message.

The former mentioned players would raise this team from a pushover without a deadly PP into one of the toughest. Would they prevent cheapshots? No, but sure as hell these guys would fight eveeryone and also go after their skilled guys and every team has some sort of non fighting skilled top players. Ellbow? Pasha fine Orr is coming to you Cowen, Neal wants to help? Too bad he has to deal with Westgarth that leaves Peluso to either fight Kassasian OR take advantages with one of their star players. Mind you, I like and respect Spezza, Karlson and Ryan but fair game is fair game.

Players have been quoted over and over again, stating how they are all playing taller and bigger, with guys like Boogard, McGrattan in the lineup it is nice to know that someone has your back.

if Kenny doesn't want someone to protect the skilled players, maybe the best owner in all of sports should bring in someone that will. Look at Toronto Boston, Rangers and Flyers took advantage of them, they then went out signed Orr, Mclaren, Frazer are now one of the toughest teams in the league. Even the big bad Bruins are thinking twice before going after Kessel.

Even Alain Vigenault who is known for his offense over everything approach has called Dylan McIlrath because the Rangers were pushovers and he wanted to bring in more grit.

Edited by frankgrimes

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Then Holland is remembering wrong. We started to win Cups when guys like Shanny were added, McCarty and Lapointe matured, Kocur was on the Grind Line with Draper and Maltby (that was the original version), all of which were tough pesky players and most would drop the gloves when needed. we scored a lot of goals and raked up record number of wins and points prior to 97. but we didn't win until the team had the right balance of skill and toughness. This formula worked in 97, 98, and 02. 08 was were our organization began drifting to the all skill side and we haven't won a cup since, nor are we going to for a few more years. heck even our skill is as good as it was 5 years ago.

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What I loved about the change from 1995-96 to 1996-97 wasn't simply the toughness. It was the fact that we had all our other bases covered before we invested in toughness. We could score with the best of them. We could defend with the best of them. Goaltending was always being questioned, but it wasn't a serious issue with the lineup we had. We went for toughness that season, 1996-97, because it was pretty much our only weakness. And even then, when we did go for toughness, we didn't just desperately grab the first four bruisers who came to mind. We traded for a dynamic first-line power-forward in Brendan Shanahan and brought back a familiar, reliable friend in Joey Kocur. We were smart about it.

Today, we can't score, we can't defend, and our #1 goalie is somewhat on-and-off. While it's true that we're not a tough team, I'd much rather we address our glaring problems up front and on the back end before saying we need to trade for Colton Orr and Brian McGratton. We need more scoring depth and an actual top four. If we have that and we're still getting shut down by even the basement teams of the league, then maybe we should look to the past, specifically 1996-97. But, as things currently stand, we're just a mess of a hockey team on all fronts, even when we're healthy (see: shootout losses, thousands of blown leads).

(Again, though, I'm not saying we don't need to get tougher. I'm just talking about priorities, i.e. What are our most pressing concerns?)

Edited by Dabura
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What I loved about the change from 1995-96 to 1996-97 wasn't simply the toughness. It was the fact that we had all our other bases covered before we invested in toughness. We could score with the best of them. We could defend with the best of them. Goaltending was always being questioned, but it wasn't a serious issue with the lineup we had. We went for toughness that season, 1996-97, because it was pretty much our only weakness. And even then, when we did go for toughness, we didn't just desperately grab the first four bruisers who came to mind. We traded for a dynamic first-line power-forward in Brendan Shanahan and broought back a familiar, reliable friend in Joey Kocur. We were smart about it.

Today, we can't score, we can't defend, and our #1 goalie is somewhat on-and-off. While it's true that we're not a tough team, I'd much rather we address our glaring problems up front and on the back end before saying we need to focus on getting tougher. We need more scoring depth and an actual top four. If we have that and we're still getting shut down by even the basement teams of the league, then maybe we should look to the past, specifically 1996-97. But, as things currently stand, we're just a mess of a hockey team on all fronts, even when we're healthy (see: shootout losses, thousands of blown leads).

Look at the coming UFA class even experts are saying that Vanek will go to Minne or sign with a Stanley Cup Contender (= NOT this team), Phaneuf is close to re-signing so the class is extremely thin.

it is easier to adress the need for toughness/grit than to adress the top 6 and defense problems.

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BTW, Franzen has another concussion and is already out for tomorrows game. That is his 3rd or 4th that I seem to remember in the NHL. These only get worse the more you have. easier to get concussions as well.....

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You haven't watched this GR team much have you? They fight.........a lot. Seriously, all you fight fans need to make an effort to watch more of their games, they are exactly the type of team you would love to watch. They played Milwaukee twice this weekend and there were tons of scraps. There was even a moment when an enforcer "policed" the ice exactly like you guys said they do! Pretty funny actually watching an Admiral trying to start ****, then Tootoo skates over and this guy suddenly remembers he needs to be somewhere else :lol:

Getting cheeky with Milwaukee is a far stretch from being able to protect and "keep the flies" off at the NHL level. Like really...B Smith used to drop the gloves all the time in GR....why doesn't he do this now? I thought he was so tough?? It's cause the reality is that AHL tough and NHL tough are two different universes apart.

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Evans and Grant are tough customers. Thanks for posting! I like the line of Ferraro/Sheahan/Tootoo also. I wouldnt mind seeing something like that on the Red Wings one day. A nice grindline.

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Kocur was on the Grind Line with Draper and Maltby (that was the original version), all of which were tough pesky players and most would drop the gloves when needed.

Joey-Yes. No doubt. The other two you mention - No. Umm....Drapes and Maltby were notorious for NOT dropping the gloves!! It was their magic spell over opponents. They would talk so much $h#^, glove wash guys in the face, low jabs after the whistle with their sticks, but they rarely dropped the gloves. I heard an interview with Doug Brown and he joked that no one actually knows if Maltby can actually fight. If Drapes were a "fighter", don't you think it would have been him and NOT Darren to settle the score with Claude?

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Getting cheeky with Milwaukee is a far stretch from being able to protect and "keep the flies" off at the NHL level. Like really...B Smith used to drop the gloves all the time in GR....why doesn't he do this now? I thought he was so tough?? It's cause the reality is that AHL tough and NHL tough are two different universes apart.

Smith dropped the gloves with Neil which proves he got the balls. Main reason for not dropping them more often in the NHL is because he would get an earfull from his coach about being short a defenseman. Not that he is a fighter by any means, but I dont see your point. Guys that are NHL proven "tough" can be had at any time for the right price. Edited by RyanBarnes!

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I still feel Tootoo has a lot to offer (25-30pts) He has an offensiive upside which allegedly is why we picked him up along wiith keeping flies off.

Never really given a chance. Wish everyones enegry levels were primed liked Toots each shift.

Sure he occassionly gets a little crazy BUT thats exactly what you want...it was mentioned earlier that Mac used to have guys looking over their shoulder. 22 does the same thing, not an enforcer or goon, but a ball of chaos that makes opponets play diffrently when hes on the ice.

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I still feel Tootoo has a lot to offer (25-30pts) He has an offensiive upside which allegedly is why we picked him up along wiith keeping flies off.

Never really given a chance. Wish everyones enegry levels were primed liked Toots each shift.

Sure he occassionly gets a little crazy BUT thats exactly what you want...it was mentioned earlier that Mac used to have guys looking over their shoulder. 22 does the same thing, not an enforcer or goon, but a ball of chaos that makes opponets play diffrently when hes on the ice.

I'd like to see what he could do on the third or second line, just as an experiment.

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Smith dropped the gloves with Neil which proves he got the balls. Main reason for not dropping them more often in the NHL is because he would get an earfull from his coach about being short a defenseman. Not that he is a fighter by any means, but I dont see your point. Guys that are NHL proven "tough" can be had at any time for the right price.

If you watch that fight with Neil...Smith wanted nothing to do with him. It took Neil a good 35 seconds to agitate and slash Smith and force him into dropping the gloves (I don't blame Smith at all...Neil is a big time heavy weight). So my point is that you can have players who you can say "Yeah, that guy can fight...he fought Neil ONCE!"....which is basically saying that he can defend himself if he needs to. That's a far cry from having players who WANT to fight. We don't have guys that want to fight. Who thrive and get a kick out of pounding someone. So, people can say "this guy or that guy can fight", "these young kids are tough, have you seen the AHL fight they were in last week!". Doesn't mean a dam thing when they get on the ice with NHL caliber tough guys who will flat out hurt them.

To my original point, Kenny and this staff don't see a need for guys that want to fight. They'd fill that spot with skill and let guys fend for themselves on the ice. Without a potent power play, and an offense that struggles to score, this is a dangerous assumption.

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it is easier to adress the need for toughness/grit than to adress the top 6 and defense problems.

Yes, it is. And hey, I'm the guy who's saying we should sign Ott and Westgarth this summer, and that Babs needs to preach a tougher brand of hockey to his troops.

But the real priority should be addressing what's really killing us, which is goals, for and against. Every fan of every team will say this, but here it is anyway, because it's true: we need a top-four defenseman and/or a top-six winger. If our goal (pun) here is to win the Cup, we need some high-end help.

Also, I'm still not sold on the Vanek-to-Minny thing. Like I've said, it makes sense, but it's all just speculation. As far as I know, Vanek hasn't said anything about it. As far as I know, no one close to him or the organization has said anything about it. It all started with a local Minnesota guy (a reporter or pundit or something, I don't know exactly) saying, "Well, this would make sense." And now everyone takes it as a given that it's happening. It probably will happen. But let me pretend there's a chance he might come here. Don't take my hope away!

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Getting cheeky with Milwaukee is a far stretch from being able to protect and "keep the flies" off at the NHL level. Like really...B Smith used to drop the gloves all the time in GR....why doesn't he do this now? I thought he was so tough?? It's cause the reality is that AHL tough and NHL tough are two different universes apart.

I think in large part its because Babcock doesn't want him to fight so much. A couple of years ago he got in a fight against Chicago and Babcock publicly threw him under the bus for leaving the team a D short. Smith is trying to become a legit top-4 player, but he's still on pace for 6 fights this season.

Criticising him for not wanting to fight Neil is daft. Neil is a legit enforcer, and Smith was in his first game back after a dislocated shoulder......sustained in a fight. Newly healed part time fighter vs 10 year enforcer?

And if Holland is so against fighters, why did he just draft The Nephtuzzi in the 2nd round?

Edited by Nev
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And if Holland is so against fighters, why did he just draft The Nephtuzzi in the 2nd round?

I can't say. Good question. But a better question that I think addresses the relevance of Hollands player philosophy above unexplained 2nd round draft picks....Can you name the last fighter that saw regular minutes/role with the Wings. Tootoo did not see regular minutes and was essentially given little chance to play any role? McCarty? Shanny? An old Kocur? Wow...that was a long, long time ago. Long time.

Edited by Learn2LuvIt

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The wings are one of the few teams without any players who are "mean". Hockey is a sport where hatred and animosity grow especially in the playoffs however there is no one on the wings who is truly a mean player. Tootoo is guys like lucic clarkson Matt Martin pronger etc are. They engage after the whistle they hit to hurt they cross check you in front etc. I am a believe in an enforcer but at the very least I think the wings need more guys who can be nasty

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Ericsson "went" after McL right after his hit on Kronwall... and after that game he was out with the shoulder injury...

He has no balls and this team is really missing some muscles.

I don't expect Kenny to trade for the size and muscles... he will "adressed" it during the summer with FA's and in september, we will have the same team without BALLS... Good luck with staying healthy

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