Goal GOAT Poll

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 minute ago, GMRwings1983 said:

What does that mean, though?  Of course players aren't getting significantly taller after they've already entered the NHL. 

Or are you saying taller people enter developmental hockey at later ages?  So for instance, a 12 year old suddenly begins playing hockey because someone told him he'd be a good goalie due to his size.      

I'm not saying any of that or anything close to it

I'm saying taller people are playing the sport now. Why? I haven't the foggiest. Maybe more prime time sports like basketball and football became overly saturated and there's been a trickle-down effect into hockey. That's my best guess. Really, all sports have become bigger and badder with time.

Still, I don't know what your point is. A 6'3 235lb Ovie probably would absolutely rock the 1980s.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

6 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I'm not saying any of that or anything close to it

I'm saying taller people are playing the sport now. Why? I haven't the foggiest. Maybe more prime time sports like basketball and football became overly saturated and there's been a trickle-down effect into hockey. That's my best guess. Really, all sports have become bigger and badder with time.

Still, I don't know what your point is. A 6'3 235lb Ovie probably would absolutely rock the 1980s.

My point is he probably wouldn't be that size.  That's larger than pretty much any forward in the league that time, discounting maybe some enforcers.  Mantha would wreck the 80's too if just traveled back there via time machine and wasn't any smaller.  

Edited March 4, 2020 by GMRwings1983

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

3 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Well, it's closer.  Which is a point you keep ignoring.  You seem to not care about context when it suits you, and not care about numbers when it suits you too.  I'm not sure on what basis you're making your picks other than Richard trophies apparently...

Also, who gives a s*** about Richard trophies?  If Ovechkin score 50 four more times he sets the record.  Who gives a damn if Matthews scores 51 in each of those same seasons?

It's a mindless point you make considering the similarity in their GPG. 

Lots of people care about Richard trophies.  People have no issue pointing out Ovechkin's Richard trophies.  Why can't I do the same for Hull?  Their career finishes are similar relative to their peers in goal scoring titles and high finishes even in seasons where they didn't win the trophy.  I pointed out that during his NHL career, Hull finished top 5 in goals pretty much every season and won numerous Richard trophies during that span.  Boohoo if kipwinger doesn't think trophies are relevant.   

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

13 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

My point is he probably wouldn't be that size.  That's larger than pretty much any forward in the league that time, discounting maybe some enforcers.  Mantha would wreck the 80's too if just traveled back there via time machine and wasn't any smaller.  

Wait, so you're saying an identical Ovie wouldn't grow to be that size in the 80s? Or an Ovie that size wouldn't make it in the NHL in the 80s?

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

42 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Wait, so you're saying an identical Ovie wouldn't grow to be that size in the 80s? Or an Ovie that size wouldn't make it in the NHL in the 80s?

Huh?  
 

I’m saying he wouldn’t even be allowed on the plane. You think Gorbachev allows a 6’3 235 lb guy to defect?

Edited March 5, 2020 by GMRwings1983

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

34 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Huh?  

 

54 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

My point is he probably wouldn't be that size.

Why?

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

2 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

 

Why?

I grew up in Russia during the 80’s.  I can tell you there weren’t too many well fed people around.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

4 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

I grew up in Russia during the 80’s.  I can tell you there weren’t too many well fed people around.

And yet Russia fielded an incredible hockey team in the 1980s. Who's to say Ovechkin isn't picked up by the Red Army early in life?

I assume this also means you don't wanna apply this same narrative to Mantha now?

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

15 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

And yet Russia fielded an incredible hockey team in the 1980s. Who's to say Ovechkin isn't picked up by the Red Army early in life?

I assume this also means you don't wanna apply this same narrative to Mantha now?

Mantha playing for the Red Army?   Come on now.  Tikhonov would bench his lazy ass every other night.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

11 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Mantha playing for the Red Army?   Come on now.  Tikhonov would bench his lazy ass every other night.

Do I have to also assume Mantha would be a cocaine addicted shop wrecker if transported back to the 1980s Canada? And not the soft sensitive boy we know today?

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

41 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Do I have to also assume Mantha would be a cocaine addicted shop wrecker if transported back to the 1980s Canada? And not the soft sensitive boy we know today?

No, he'd probably be closer to 6'3 and would actually know how to throw a punch without hurting his hand.   Power forwards are beta males these days.  

Anyway, how do people feel about Lemieux as the best goal scorer ever?  His name hasn't been mentioned too often so far in this thread.  690 goals scored in 915 games. 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 minute ago, GMRwings1983 said:

No, he'd probably be closer to 6'3 and would actually know how to throw a punch without hurting his hand.   Power forwards are beta males these days. 

Were 80s Canadians biafra cases too?

2 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Anyway, how do people feel about Lemieux as the best goal scorer ever?  His name hasn't been mentioned too often so far in this thread.  690 goals scored in 915 games. 

He's better than Gretsky

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

53 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Were 80s Canadians biafra cases too?

He's better than Gretsky

In goal scoring he is.

[kliq 3,755]

9 hours ago, GMRwings1983 said:

What is this a ******* political debate?  What history of mine are you referring to?  You keep changing this topic to make it more personal for some reason.  I also don't remember all these times I apparently refused to provide a list of rankings.  I can give you my top 10 all time ranking right now if you want.  Crosby would likely be in it.  Ovechkin would be top 20, not top 10 all time.  Lidstrom same as Ovechkin.  That's not a knock on any modern players.  I'm not entirely against modern players in all time ranking.  As far as goals only, I can see Ovechkin ranked anywhere from 3rd to 5th.  I can't put him above Lemieux or Hull just yet but I can see that changing if he keeps his current pace. 

It's not that I don't respect modern players.  It's that many posters like to point out the weakness of prior eras when lauding today's players.  I think we can't be that dismissive of prior eras.        

Gretzky outscored everyone else in the 80's by a wide margin when it comes to goals.  Yes, there were only two seasons where he outscored them by 25+ goals but overall, he was far ahead of Bossy and Goulet for goal leaders in the decade.  I won't repeat those same stats but I posted them earlier.  So his dominance in goals over his peers, in his prime, is significant.  

Bottom line, Ovie scored more goals per game then Gretzky in a era that scoring was harder to do and he won the scoring title 3 more times then Gretzky. I think that speaks for its self. I think my stats were very fair when I broke it down as I tried to show both in an even light. You just showed Gretzky. 

I actually would like to see your list. Who are your top 5 goal scorers of all time?

To be blunt, I dont like it either when people dismiss players of older era's. But I also dont like when its done on the other side of the spectrum. Putting the past on a pedestal while dismissing the present is just as annoying. 

As for the rest, I honestly dont know what you mean by me changing the topic and as for this debate getting personal? I'm not the one who came out of nowhere to tell you that you were "full of it".

 

3 hours ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Anyway, how do people feel about Lemieux as the best goal scorer ever?  His name hasn't been mentioned too often so far in this thread.  690 goals scored in 915 games. 

Greatest goal scorer of all time. If the guy was never diagnosed with leukemia he likely has the all time record.

[krsmith17 7,191]

I think Ovechkin will go down as the best goal scorer of all time, even if he doesn't break Gretzky's record (it will be close). However, bringing up goals per game is a fallacy, since like every player, Gretzky's G/G decreased later in his career. The same will inevitably happen with Ovechkin as well.

Gretzky (Career)
Regular Season G/G: 0.601
Playoffs G/G: 0.587
Overall G/G: 0.599

Ovechkin (Career so far - age 34)
Regular Season G/G: 0.612
Playoffs G/G: 0.508
Overall G/G: 0.601

Gretzky (Career up until age 34)

Regular Season G/G: 0.714
Playoffs G/G: 0.611
Overall G/G: 0.700

Ovechkin may not have the same sort of drop off that Gretzky did (due to injury), but he most certainly will see his numbers take a hit. Also, like has been mentioned, Ovechkin has been extremely durable over his career, but that doesn't mean he's immune to injury. An injury can happen at any time, especially as he ages. It's also likely that he will play into his late 30's, maybe even early 40's, but at some point he might decide to finish his career in the KHL. People are assuming he will remain healthy, and play 80+ games every year for the next 6+ years in the NHL. It's possible, but probably not as likely as some seem to think...

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

10 hours ago, kliq said:

Bottom line, Ovie scored more goals per game then Gretzky in a era that scoring was harder to do and he won the scoring title 3 more times then Gretzky. I think that speaks for its self. I think my stats were very fair when I broke it down as I tried to show both in an even light. You just showed Gretzky. 

I actually would like to see your list. Who are your top 5 goal scorers of all time?

To be blunt, I dont like it either when people dismiss players of older era's. But I also dont like when its done on the other side of the spectrum. Putting the past on a pedestal while dismissing the present is just as annoying. 

As for the rest, I honestly dont know what you mean by me changing the topic and as for this debate getting personal? I'm not the one who came out of nowhere to tell you that you were "full of it".

 

Greatest goal scorer of all time. If the guy was never diagnosed with leukemia he likely has the all time record.

Off the top of my head, if we're just looking at regular season and not the playoffs:

1.  Lemieux

2.  Hull

3.  Ovechkin / Gretzky

5.  Howe

 

6.  Richard

 

A few more dominant seasons for Ovechkin, and I can see him passing Hull.  Richard's playoff resume was amazing but if we ignore the playoffs, it goes down slightly (not much though).  He should be in the discussion here.  I think he's a better overall player than Ovechkin, but just regular season goals, I have to give Ovechkin the nod.    

We've already discussed Ovechkin and Gretzky.  I have no issue with flipping those players around any way you want them.  I know we're supposed to ignore Gretzky's assists, but it's hard doing that when you consider how many goals he scored despite being a pass first guy.  Would Ovechkin still score as many goals if he was less selfish and didn't lead the league in shots every season?  It's a fair point to consider.  How do you define greatest?  Who scored the most goals?  Who had the best shotmaking ability?  Who could score lots of goals despite other areas of his game?  Shooting percentage?    

I'm surprised Howe hasn't been mentioned more.  This is a Red Wings message board last time I checked.  He played when they only had 70 game seasons.  His best years in the 1950's were during an era where there weren't lots of goals scored.  So we have to look at where he finished relative to the competition.  He led the league in goals 5 times and finished runner up 5 times.  Those runner-up finishes were at the hands of Richard, Hull, and Beliveau.  No offense to Ovechkin or Gretzky, but they never had to compete with three of the ten greatest players ever for goal scoring trophies. 

Get this.  Howe led the league in goals in his 17th season!  That's pretty impressive.  He finished as high as 3rd in his 22nd season.  He would be the most durable goal scorer ever.  I can see Ovechkin claiming that title as well if he continues with high finishes in his waning years.  

 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I think Ovechkin will go down as the best goal scorer of all time, even if he doesn't break Gretzky's record (it will be close). However, bringing up goals per game is a fallacy, since like every player, Gretzky's G/G decreased later in his career. The same will inevitably happen with Ovechkin as well.

Gretzky (Career)
Regular Season G/G: 0.601
Playoffs G/G: 0.587
Overall G/G: 0.599

Ovechkin (Career so far - age 34)
Regular Season G/G: 0.612
Playoffs G/G: 0.508
Overall G/G: 0.601

Gretzky (Career up until age 34)

Regular Season G/G: 0.714
Playoffs G/G: 0.611
Overall G/G: 0.700

Ovechkin may not have the same sort of drop off that Gretzky did (due to injury), but he most certainly will see his numbers take a hit. Also, like has been mentioned, Ovechkin has been extremely durable over his career, but that doesn't mean he's immune to injury. An injury can happen at any time, especially as he ages. It's also likely that he will play into his late 30's, maybe even early 40's, but at some point he might decide to finish his career in the KHL. People are assuming he will remain healthy, and play 80+ games every year for the next 6+ years in the NHL. It's possible, but probably not as likely as some seem to think...

Here's what their careers look like visually for goal totals (horiz axis is age):

Here's what it looks like adjusted for gpg pace:

Sorry about the confusing sizing

So regardless of whether you use goal totals or gpg pace the data looks pretty much the same, since both these players played most of their games.

Gretsky and Ovie become even at about age 27, and then Ovie breaks away and takes the lead at around age 32. Furthermore, if you drew a trend line through both players data Gretsky's goal scoring would be on a steady decline through most of his career. Ovie's would be pretty much flat, indicating he's a very consistent goal scorer, defying age (so far).

When you put everything in context of the 80s and post-lockout era, it's hard not to look at Gretky's data plot and think his numbers are very much pumped up by the early 1980s era. In fact, Gretky's numbers come down to earth as early as 1985/86 when he's 25. He will enjoy 6 more seasons of non-dead puck hockey, yet he won't score much more (and even less sometimes) than Ovechkin over that time.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

11 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Off the top of my head, if we're just looking at regular season and not the playoffs:

1.  Lemieux

2.  Hull

3.  Ovechkin / Gretzky

5.  Howe

 

6.  Richard

 

A few more dominant seasons for Ovechkin, and I can see him passing Hull.  Richard's playoff resume was amazing but if we ignore the playoffs, it goes down slightly (not much though).  He should be in the discussion here.  I think he's a better overall player than Ovechkin, but just regular season goals, I have to give Ovechkin the nod.    

We've already discussed Ovechkin and Gretzky.  I have no issue with flipping those players around any way you want them.  I know we're supposed to ignore Gretzky's assists, but it's hard doing that when you consider how many goals he scored despite being a pass first guy.  Would Ovechkin still score as many goals if he was less selfish and didn't lead the league in shots every season?  It's a fair point to consider.  How do you define greatest?  Who scored the most goals?  Who had the best shotmaking ability?  Who could score lots of goals despite other areas of his game?  Shooting percentage?    

I'm surprised Howe hasn't been mentioned more.  This is a Red Wings message board last time I checked.  He played when they only had 70 game seasons.  His best years in the 1950's were during an era where there weren't lots of goals scored.  So we have to look at where he finished relative to the competition.  He led the league in goals 5 times and finished runner up 5 times.  Those runner-up finishes were at the hands of Richard, Hull, and Beliveau.  No offense to Ovechkin or Gretzky, but they never had to compete with three of the ten greatest players ever for goal scoring trophies. 

Get this.  Howe led the league in goals in his 17th season!  That's pretty impressive.  He finished as high as 3rd in his 22nd season.  He would be the most durable goal scorer ever.  I can see Ovechkin claiming that title as well if he continues with high finishes in his waning years.  

 

Ovechkin and Howe actually have a lot of similarities when you think about. Both ridiculously strong for hockey players. Both extremely physical in play. Both goal scoring machines. Both defy age and injury. Both big personalities....

[kliq 3,755]

15 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Off the top of my head, if we're just looking at regular season and not the playoffs:

1.  Lemieux

2.  Hull

3.  Ovechkin / Gretzky

5.  Howe

 

6.  Richard

 

A few more dominant seasons for Ovechkin, and I can see him passing Hull.  Richard's playoff resume was amazing but if we ignore the playoffs, it goes down slightly (not much though).  He should be in the discussion here.  I think he's a better overall player than Ovechkin, but just regular season goals, I have to give Ovechkin the nod.    

We've already discussed Ovechkin and Gretzky.  I have no issue with flipping those players around any way you want them.  I know we're supposed to ignore Gretzky's assists, but it's hard doing that when you consider how many goals he scored despite being a pass first guy.  Would Ovechkin still score as many goals if he was less selfish and didn't lead the league in shots every season?  It's a fair point to consider.  How do you define greatest?  Who scored the most goals?  Who had the best shotmaking ability?  Who could score lots of goals despite other areas of his game?  Shooting percentage?    

I'm surprised Howe hasn't been mentioned more.  This is a Red Wings message board last time I checked.  He played when they only had 70 game seasons.  His best years in the 1950's were during an era where there weren't lots of goals scored.  So we have to look at where he finished relative to the competition.  He led the league in goals 5 times and finished runner up 5 times.  Those runner-up finishes were at the hands of Richard, Hull, and Beliveau.  No offense to Ovechkin or Gretzky, but they never had to compete with three of the ten greatest players ever for goal scoring trophies. 

Get this.  Howe led the league in goals in his 17th season!  That's pretty impressive.  He finished as high as 3rd in his 22nd season.  He would be the most durable goal scorer ever.  I can see Ovechkin claiming that title as well if he continues with high finishes in his waning years.  

 

I have zero issue with anything you are saying here, and to clarify everything I was saying was based on regular season goal scoring. 
 

Best player ever is a much easier debate, because you do bring up great points about Gretzky scoring as many goals that he did despite being a pass first guy. I guess in this debate selfishness plays a factor unfortunately. Now if we’re talking best player, hands down IMO it’s Gretzky and Ovie is not even in the conversation. Too bad Mario didn’t stay healthy during his prime, that could have been a great debate.
 

I guess the issues with lists are that if you’re only ranking top 5 someone will be excluded. I put Bure on mine, but that was based on watching him play, obviously that is a bias as I never saw Howe play. He deserves to be in the convo though. 

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

2 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Ovechkin and Howe actually have a lot of similarities when you think about. Both ridiculously strong for hockey players. Both extremely physical in play. Both goal scoring machines. Both defy age and injury. Both big personalities....

The biggest similarity I see is goal scoring after the age of 30.  Both players showed they're more than capable of still leading the league in goals in the latter part of their career.    

After that, there's not much similarity.  Howe was a much better all around player.  He did have over 1,000 assists in his career.  Ovechkin probably thinks assists are only a basketball stat.  Howe was also better at the defensive side of the ice. 

Ovechkin's overall point finishes have dwindled relative to the competition, because his assist numbers have declined.  He has three top 10 assist finishes in his career, but none since 2011.  That's affected his Art Ross finishes.  He's continued to score goals, but is either not passing as often, or his linemates have become worse goal scorers.    

Edited March 5, 2020 by GMRwings1983

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 minute ago, GMRwings1983 said:

The biggest similarity I see is goal scoring after the age of 30.  Both players showed they're more than capable of still leading the league in goals in the latter part of their career.    

After that, there's not much similarity.  Howe was a much better all around player.  He did have over 1,000 assists in is career.  Ovechkin probably thinks assists are only a basketball stat.  Howe was also better at the defensive side of the ice. 

Ovechkin's overall point finishes have dwindled relative to the competition, because his assist numbers have declined.  He has three top 10 assist finishes in his career, but none since 2011.  That's affected his Art Ross finishes.  He's continued to score goals, but is either not passing as often, or his linemates have become worse goal scorers.    

Ovie's not a playmaker, never has been.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

2 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Here's what their careers look like visually for goal totals (horiz axis is age):

Here's what it looks like adjusted for gpg pace:

Sorry about the confusing sizing

So regardless of whether you use goal totals or gpg pace the data looks pretty much the same, since both these players played most of their games.

Gretsky and Ovie become even at about age 27, and then Ovie breaks away and takes the lead at around age 32. Furthermore, if you drew a trend line through both players data Gretsky's goal scoring would be on a steady decline through most of his career. Ovie's would be pretty much flat, indicating he's a very consistent goal scorer, defying age (so far).

When you put everything in context of the 80s and post-lockout era, it's hard not to look at Gretky's data plot and think his numbers are very much pumped up by the early 1980s era. In fact, Gretky's numbers come down to earth as early as 1985/86 when he's 25. He will enjoy 6 more seasons of non-dead puck hockey, yet he won't score much more (and even less sometimes) than Ovechkin over that time.

I read this chart as Gretzky scoring 21 goals at 90 years old.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

27 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

I read this chart as Gretzky scoring 21 goals at 90 years old.

The independent variable always goes on the X axis. This is 5th grader stuff u blockhead.

[kipwinger 8,522]

22 hours ago, GMRwings1983 said:

It's a mindless point you make considering the similarity in their GPG. 

Lots of people care about Richard trophies.  People have no issue pointing out Ovechkin's Richard trophies.  Why can't I do the same for Hull?  Their career finishes are similar relative to their peers in goal scoring titles and high finishes even in seasons where they didn't win the trophy.  I pointed out that during his NHL career, Hull finished top 5 in goals pretty much every season and won numerous Richard trophies during that span.  Boohoo if kipwinger doesn't think trophies are relevant.   

Who are these people?   We've been talking about this for pages and the only person mentioning trophies is you.

Edited March 5, 2020 by kipwinger

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

2 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Who are these people?   We've been talking about this for pages and the only person mentioning trophies is you.

People who talk about hockey history and compare player accomplishments.  You've never heard anyone compare players and mention how many Hart trophies or Vezinas someone won?  Same with Richard trophies.