Goal GOAT Poll

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

1 minute ago, kliq said:

The argument is not "who had the greatest single goal scoring season of all time", if it was no question that Gretzky's 81/82 or 83/84 seasons are at the top, but that is not the question. The question is who is the greatest goal scorer of all time. Now I already said that I pick Lemieux #1 (which now I am second guessing after all the stats I pulled), but your biggest source of contention appears to be me putting Ovie above Gretzky, you want me to explain my logic, here it is:

Goals Per Game 
Ovie - 0.612,
Gretzky - 0.601.
Ovie in his career scored more goals per game then Gretzky.

League Averages
During Gretzky's career the mean for GPG in a season was 3.50.
During Ovie's career it was/is 2.85.

Despite Ovie playing in an era where goal scoring was down 0.65 GPG, Ovie still managed to outscore Gretzky per game.

Leading the league in scoring
Gretzky led the league in goals 5 times in his career
Ovie has led the league in goals 8 times and counting.

Against, I admit Gretzky had a two seasons where he dominated (81/82 & 83/84) those are the two best goal scoring season of all time, but as far as who was the stronger goal scoring threat throughout their career, its not even close. 8 Richard trophies is pretty damn impressive and IMO puts Ovie above Gretzky.

In Response to your "The fact is, Ovechkin in his best years never dominated his peers in goal scoring like Gretzky did." Comment
Sure, Ovie never outscored his peers by "25 or 30 goals", but come on thats a silly thing to say in this era and you know it. Its not possible to do that when the best goal scorer in the world is scoring in the 50's. Do you really expect #2 to be in the 20's? More goals being scored opens the league up to these types of numbers. Its similar to what the NFL is seeing now with TD's and Passing Yards. The only thing you can look at is percentages, here they are as I did a deep dive:

Lets look at each season each respective player won the goal scoring title and how close #2 was:

81-82 - Gretzky scored 92 - #2 scored 64 --- 44% better then #2
82-83 - Gretzky scored 71 - #2 scored 66 ---  8% better then #2
83-84 - Gretzky scored 87 - #2 scored 56 ----55% better then #2
84-85 - Gretzky scored 73 - #2 scored 71 ---  3% better then #2
86-87 - Gretzky scored 62 - #2 scored 58 ---- 7% better then #2

07-08 - Ovie scored 65 - #2 scored 52 --- 25% better then #2
08-09 - Ovie scored 56 - #2 scored 46 --- 22% better then #2
12-13 - Ovie scored 32 - #2 scored 29 --- 10% better then #2
13-14 - Ovie scored 51 - #2 scored 43 --- 19% better then #2
14-15 - Ovie scored 53 - #2 scored 43 --- 23% better then #2
15-16 - Ovie scored 50 - #2 scored 46 ---  9% better then #2
17-18 - Ovie scored 49 - #2 scored 44 --- 11% better then #2
18-19 - Ovie scored 51 - #2 scored 50 ---  1% better then #2

Ovie actually outscored his competition in the years he won the rocket by double digits 6 times. Gretzky did it twice. This dominance you speak of only happened twice, by reading your post you would think he did this every year. Again, no doubt that '81-82 & '83-84 are the best single seasons a player has ever had in terms of scoring goals, but Ovie has dominated for a MUCH longer duration the Gretzky winning scoring titles for over 11 years. Gretzky did most of his damage in a much shorter period of time as it was all in 6 seasons. 

Other Factors

Gretzky in the early part of his career ONLY played against the best North American players in the world. Ovie throughout his career has played against the very best the entire world has had to offer, not half. Ovie outperformed Gretzky statistically against stronger competition.  

If you remove every non North American player ever (for conversation sake pretending Ovie was a NA player), I think Ovie does start to score at the level Gretzky did, just like when the rest of the world came into the NHL, Gretzky's dominance diminished.

Whats even more impressive, Ovie is winning scoring titles in his 30's, Gretzky never won a single title after he was 26.

Both are great, I'm not trying to tear Gretzky down. We're comparing the best of the best here. But statistically all indicators point towards Ovie being the better goal scorer. Gretzky just had the best single season ever which is appearing to cloud peoples judgement.  

I will say this though, after reviewing Gretzky's stats so closely, I do switch him and Bure.

But ya, I'm full of it.

Gretzky has more goals. 

[kliq 3,755]

1 minute ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Gretzky has more goals. 

When/If Ovie breaks the record will you change your stance?

Edited March 4, 2020 by kliq

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

14 minutes ago, kliq said:

The argument is not "who had the greatest single goal scoring season of all time", if it was no question that Gretzky's 81/82 or 83/84 seasons are at the top, but that is not the question. The question is who is the greatest goal scorer of all time. Now I already said that I pick Lemieux #1 (which now I am second guessing after all the stats I pulled), but your biggest source of contention appears to be me putting Ovie above Gretzky, you want me to explain my logic, here it is:

Goals Per Game 
Ovie - 0.612,
Gretzky - 0.601.
Ovie in his career scored more goals per game then Gretzky.

League Averages
During Gretzky's career the mean for GPG in a season was 3.50.
During Ovie's career it was/is 2.85.

Despite Ovie playing in an era where goal scoring was down 0.65 GPG, Ovie still managed to outscore Gretzky per game.

Leading the league in scoring
Gretzky led the league in goals 5 times in his career
Ovie has led the league in goals 8 times and counting.

Against, I admit Gretzky had a two seasons where he dominated (81/82 & 83/84) those are the two best goal scoring season of all time, but as far as who was the stronger goal scoring threat throughout their career, its not even close. 8 Richard trophies is pretty damn impressive and IMO puts Ovie above Gretzky.

In Response to your "The fact is, Ovechkin in his best years never dominated his peers in goal scoring like Gretzky did." Comment
Sure, Ovie never outscored his peers by "25 or 30 goals", but come on thats a silly thing to say in this era and you know it. Its not possible to do that when the best goal scorer in the world is scoring in the 50's. Do you really expect #2 to be in the 20's? More goals being scored opens the league up to these types of numbers. Its similar to what the NFL is seeing now with TD's and Passing Yards. The only thing you can look at is percentages, here they are as I did a deep dive:

Lets look at each season each respective player won the goal scoring title and how close #2 was:

81-82 - Gretzky scored 92 - #2 scored 64 --- 44% better then #2
82-83 - Gretzky scored 71 - #2 scored 66 ---  8% better then #2
83-84 - Gretzky scored 87 - #2 scored 56 ----55% better then #2
84-85 - Gretzky scored 73 - #2 scored 71 ---  3% better then #2
86-87 - Gretzky scored 62 - #2 scored 58 ---- 7% better then #2

07-08 - Ovie scored 65 - #2 scored 52 --- 25% better then #2
08-09 - Ovie scored 56 - #2 scored 46 --- 22% better then #2
12-13 - Ovie scored 32 - #2 scored 29 --- 10% better then #2
13-14 - Ovie scored 51 - #2 scored 43 --- 19% better then #2
14-15 - Ovie scored 53 - #2 scored 43 --- 23% better then #2
15-16 - Ovie scored 50 - #2 scored 46 ---  9% better then #2
17-18 - Ovie scored 49 - #2 scored 44 --- 11% better then #2
18-19 - Ovie scored 51 - #2 scored 50 ---  1% better then #2

Ovie actually outscored his competition in the years he won the rocket by double digits 6 times. Gretzky did it twice. This dominance you speak of only happened twice, by reading your post you would think he did this every year. Again, no doubt that '81-82 & '83-84 are the best single seasons a player has ever had in terms of scoring goals, but Ovie has dominated for a MUCH longer duration the Gretzky winning scoring titles for over 11 years. Gretzky did most of his damage in a much shorter period of time as it was all in 6 seasons. 

Other Factors

Gretzky in the early part of his career ONLY played against the best North American players in the world. Ovie throughout his career has played against the very best the entire world has had to offer, not half. Ovie outperformed Gretzky statistically against stronger competition.  

If you remove every non North American player ever (for conversation sake pretending Ovie was a NA player), I think Ovie does start to score at the level Gretzky did, just like when the rest of the world came into the NHL, Gretzky's dominance diminished.

Whats even more impressive, Ovie is winning scoring titles in his 30's, Gretzky never won a single title after he was 26.

Both are great, I'm not trying to tear Gretzky down. We're comparing the best of the best here. But statistically all indicators point towards Ovie being the better goal scorer. Gretzky just had the best single season ever which is appearing to cloud peoples judgement.  

I will say this though, after reviewing Gretzky's stats so closely, I do switch him and Bure.

But ya, I'm full of it.

Well, you asked for it.  You said that 1982 was the easiest season to score ever.  Yet I pointed out that only two players besides Gretzky even scored 60 goals that year.  If it was such an easy season to score, presumably other great goal scorers from that year should have hit 70+ goals. 

Gretzky's numbers diminished in the 90's after that prick Gary Suter injured him.  He was never quite the same.  That said, he still led the NHL in points during the 90's.  So even with European influx, we're still talking about the best point scorer of the decade.  The European influx has nothing to do with Gretzky's goal totals diminishing.  Otherwise, we'd have to explain why he led the league in points in the 90's but not goals.  Did European players somehow stop him from goals but not assists?  

And where do you get Gretzky only playing against half the world's best?  In the 80's, outside of the Soviet Union, countries like Sweden, Finland, and the Czech Republic weren't quite as strong with NHL quality players as they later became.  It certainly wasn't half the world's best players that Gretzky was dominating.  Another fallacy about 1980's hockey.  And as I pointed out, Gretzky still led the NHL in points in the 90's.  

 

 

Edited March 4, 2020 by GMRwings1983

[kliq 3,755]

1 minute ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Well, you asked for it.  You said that 1982 was the easiest season to score ever.  Yet I pointed out that only two players besides Gretzky even scored 60 goals that year.  If it was such an easy season to score, presumably other great goal scorers from that year should have hit 70+ goals. 

I'm pointing out facts, statistically it was the easiest season to score ever. No other NHL season ever has the average GPG been above 4. 
I also said like 3 times that the 81-82 season was the best ever season by a player, I'm not taking away from Gretzky. 

Look I get it, your mind is made up and it doesnt matter what stats or proof anyone shows. My guess is that you won't even consider Ovie being a better goal scorer the Gretzky. Sorry man, but I proved you wrong. 

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

1 minute ago, kliq said:

I'm pointing out facts, statistically it was the easiest season to score ever. No other NHL season ever has the average GPG been above 4. 
I also said like 3 times that the 81-82 season was the best ever season by a player, I'm not taking away from Gretzky. 

Look I get it, your mind is made up and it doesnt matter what stats or proof anyone shows. My guess is that you won't even consider Ovie being a better goal scorer the Gretzky. Sorry man, but I proved you wrong. 

LOL.  Whatever makes you feel better.  You've proven nothing other than sweeping statements I normally hear about different eras of hockey as compared to today's era.

[kliq 3,755]

1 minute ago, GMRwings1983 said:

LOL.  Whatever makes you feel better.  You've proven nothing other than sweeping statements I normally hear about different eras of hockey as compared to today's era.

BS and you know it. Why dont you actually make a point. I broke down their stats season by season, and shocker, you countered with nothing because you have nothing to counter with.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

1 minute ago, kliq said:

BS and you know it. Why dont you actually make a point. I broke down their stats season by season, and shocker, you countered with nothing because you have nothing to counter with.

Huh?  Why are you arguing with yourself.  If you read through my posts, I never ranked either player.  If you want to rank Ovechkin as a better goal scorer, that's your opinion.  An argument can certainly be made.  I don't care.     

People started diminishing Gretzky's accomplishments during the 1980's, Bobby Hull's era and the goalies in it, etc.  Ovechkin would score 100 goals in the 1980's, etc.  I responded with what I think about player sizes during Hull's era vs. today and what I think about the 1980's in general and Gretzky's peers.

You said you couldn't judge Gretzky's totals based on the era he was in.  I told you what I think about that.  There's nothing wrong with Gretzky's era and no reason why it cannot be judged fairly.

  

[kliq 3,755]

2 hours ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Huh?  Why are you arguing with yourself. 

If you read through my posts, I never ranked either player.  If you want to rank Ovechkin as a better goal scorer, that's your opinion.  An argument can certainly be made.  I don't care.     

People started diminishing Gretzky's accomplishments during the 1980's, Bobby Hull's era and the goalies in it, etc.  Ovechkin would score 100 goals in the 1980's, etc.  I responded with what I think about player sizes during Hull's era vs. today and what I think about the 1980's in general and Gretzky's peers.

You said you couldn't judge Gretzky's totals based on the era he was in.  I told you what I think about that.  There's nothing wrong with Gretzky's era and no reason why it cannot be judged fairly.

  

Bold 1: You do remember that you quoted me to tell me that I was full of it, right? Not the other way around. But ok, sure you dont care.

Bold 2: Again BS, stop back peddling. Maybe you didnt put a number next to their names, but its pretty clear by your quote below who you rank higher. Sorry the facts that the majority are presenting in this thread are pissing you off.  

Quote

 

The fact is, Ovechkin in his best years never dominated his peers in goal scoring like Gretzky did.  He never finished with 25 or 30 more goals than the next player.  All the people bringing up the high scoring in the 80's have no reply to that.  We're supposed to believe that Ovechkin would score 100 goals, while the next highest guy not counting Gretzky would have 60.  When has Ovechkin ever shown that kind of statistical gap versus his peers?  

You guys are full of it.  

 

 

Edited March 4, 2020 by kliq

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

39 minutes ago, kliq said:

When/If Ovie breaks the record will you change your stance?

You betcha. With a caveat. If Gretzky only cared about goals, I think his record would be unbreakable. He'd have like 1200.  Instead, he sort of just fuked around with scoring and ended up with 894 goals while mostly trying to dish out 2000 helpers. Ovi has like 4 assists. Plus he's probs totes juicin'. 

Edited March 4, 2020 by The 91 of Ryans

[kliq 3,755]

7 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

You betcha. With a caveat. If Gretzky only cared about goals, I think his record would be unbreakable. He'd have like 1200.  Instead, he sort of just fuked around with scoring and ended up with 894 goals while mostly trying to dish out 2000 helpers. Ovi has like 4 assists. Plus he's probs totes juicin'. 

Look, if the conversation is best player ever, IMO there is no debate. Gretzky would be the all time points leader if he literally scored 0 goals. Guy is the G.O.A.T, no question.

[kipwinger 8,522]

4 hours ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Hull was only 5’10 and if you see photos of him, you’ll see he was built like a tank.  Same with Howe.  That is small compared to today’s players.  Ovechkin wouldn’t be 6’3 235 lbs back then.  He also wouldn’t be using a composite stick.  
 

 

Your "devil's advocate" Schick is getting old.  I've seen you rail against "big goalies with big pads" for years.   

[chaps80 1,591]

Gordie, cause he could do everything. Richard was tough too, but screw the Habs.

[kliq 3,755]

2 hours ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Gretzky's numbers diminished in the 90's after that prick Gary Suter injured him.  He was never quite the same.  That said, he still led the NHL in points during the 90's.  So even with European influx, we're still talking about the best point scorer of the decade. 

The European influx has nothing to do with Gretzky's goal totals diminishing.  Otherwise, we'd have to explain why he led the league in points in the 90's but not goals.  Did European players somehow stop him from goals but not assists?  

And where do you get Gretzky only playing against half the world's best?  In the 80's, outside of the Soviet Union, countries like Sweden, Finland, and the Czech Republic weren't quite as strong with NHL quality players as they later became.  It certainly wasn't half the world's best players that Gretzky was dominating.  Another fallacy about 1980's hockey.  And as I pointed out, Gretzky still led the NHL in points in the 90's.  

Bold 1: We're not talking about points, this is strictly a debate about goal scoring. I never at any point during this conversation said that Gretzky wasn't the greatest player of all time, or that he wasn't the best overall scorer (ie. Points). 

Bold 2: BS, you add in better goalies, better D, and better forwards as opponents and you are not going to be as dominant.
Why did he lead the league in points? He was the best player in the world, you're either completely ignoring context, or you don't understand what I am saying. We were discussing Gretzky's absolute dominance in the early 80's, and I made the point that when you are not playing against the best in the world, the separation between you and the rest of the pack will be larger. Also, points will be inflated if you are going to be facing inferior goaltending and lesser caliber D-men. 

Bold 3: Ok, you are taking me literally. I don't mean that exactly 50% of the best players were playing oversees. In the 80's which is what I am talking about (not 90's), the best Soviet players who were considered power houses at the time were not playing in the NHL, and the influx of other European talent was not what it is now. 

Enough with the strawman's already, I am not saying that Gretzky was not good, how many times do I have to say he is the greatest player of all time? 
I am dissecting his goal scoring ability compared to Ovechkin's, and when you are comparing guys at that level, all these factors matter. Anything that favours Ovie you just dismiss, and for whatever reason you get so defensive about the 80's.

A lot of posts for someone who doesn't care.

[chaps80 1,591]

1 hour ago, kipwinger said:

Your "devil's advocate" Schick is getting old.  I've seen you rail against "big goalies with big pads" for years.   

Only goalie i had a beef with on that was Giguere. f*** that guy looked ridiculous.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

8 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Your "devil's advocate" Schick is getting old.  I've seen you rail against "big goalies with big pads" for years.   

Says anyone to anyone on LGWs dot com

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

8 hours ago, kliq said:

Bold 1: We're not talking about points, this is strictly a debate about goal scoring. I never at any point during this conversation said that Gretzky wasn't the greatest player of all time, or that he wasn't the best overall scorer (ie. Points). 

Bold 2: BS, you add in better goalies, better D, and better forwards as opponents and you are not going to be as dominant.
Why did he lead the league in points? He was the best player in the world, you're either completely ignoring context, or you don't understand what I am saying. We were discussing Gretzky's absolute dominance in the early 80's, and I made the point that when you are not playing against the best in the world, the separation between you and the rest of the pack will be larger. Also, points will be inflated if you are going to be facing inferior goaltending and lesser caliber D-men. 

Bold 3: Ok, you are taking me literally. I don't mean that exactly 50% of the best players were playing oversees. In the 80's which is what I am talking about (not 90's), the best Soviet players who were considered power houses at the time were not playing in the NHL, and the influx of other European talent was not what it is now. 

Enough with the strawman's already, I am not saying that Gretzky was not good, how many times do I have to say he is the greatest player of all time? 
I am dissecting his goal scoring ability compared to Ovechkin's, and when you are comparing guys at that level, all these factors matter. Anything that favours Ovie you just dismiss, and for whatever reason you get so defensive about the 80's.

A lot of posts for someone who doesn't care.

I can play the bolded game too.  

Bold 1:  I understand you're talking about goal scoring.  You can certainly make a good argument that Ovechkin is a better goal scorer over his career than Gretzky, even though his peak and dominance isn't as high.  Why did I bring up points and not just goals?  Simply because Gretzky still led the league in points in the 90's, despite the expansion of European players.  Why wouldn't he still lead the league in goals, during the 80's, when he was younger and better, even if the best European players (Soviets) were playing in the NHL in the 80's?  I'm pretty sure Soviets playing in the NHL wouldn't have changed Gretzky's goal numbers in the 80's.  He did very well in International competitions.  If you're suggesting his goal scoring in the 90's went down because of more European players, I don't agree.  There were other reasons.  

Bold 2:  This is simply false.  I can see how goalies are better schooled nowadays, but outside of Tretiak, Gretzky was playing against the best goalies of his era.  You can't just transport Ben Bishop with his giant pads into the 80's, as he would instantly become the best goalie in the world.  Even Jimmy Howard would look good playing back then.  Conversely, Grant Fuhr or Billy Smith transported via time machine would struggle in today's era.  This doesn't mean Gretzky didn't face any good goalies or that goaltending sucked in the 80's.  This is not the way to compare different eras.  He dominated who he had to play against.  Ovechkin is playing against giant goalies who are well schooled and wear lots of pads, but he's also bigger, stronger, and uses better hockey equipment.  Gretzky, Kurri, and Bossy didn't use the kind of sticks players use today.  

I don't see how the forwards or defensemen are better today.  The best defensemen of the 80's are Bourque, Potvin, Coffey, Robinson , Chelios, MacInnis, Stevens, Langway.  Fetisov would be the big omission who didn't play in the league during his prime.  Are you going to tell me that Ovechkin's era has seen a higher caliber of defensemen when it comes to all-time ranking?  I doubt it.  Do I need to name all the great forwards of the 80's besides Gretzky?  Yes, there were some NHL omissions like Makarov, Larionov, and many other Soviets, but on the whole the 80's didn't lack great forwards in the NHL.  That era is loaded will Hall of Fame forwards, even if you eliminate accumulators like Andreychuk, Gartner, and a few others.             

Bold 3:  I covered this already.  This is not a knock on Gretzky's era, minus the Soviet players.  Sweden, Finland, and many other countries weren't loaded with stars back then as compared to today.  We're not talking hundreds of players being held back from playing in the league.  I'm not being presumptuous when I say Gretzky would still dominate that decade regardless of who came to the NHL from the Soviet Union, Sweden, Finland, Czechoslovakia, etc.  Yes, there are more players now from other countries, more diversity, etc.  If that is going to be held against Gretzky's era, you can do so with any era pre-Gretzky.  Maybe Crosby is better than Howe because he's playing against more European players from different countries? 

Neither Wayne nor Gordie should be blamed for world hockey not being as developed during their era.  This isn't like Fedor not fighting in the UFC during his prime or Jack Dempsey refusing to fight black fighters.     

Bold 4:  OK, you didn't have a bold 4, but you mentioned something in another post I wanted to touch upon.  You said that it's silly to expect anyone today to outscore the competition by 25 goals.  It's certainly hard to envision it, but that doesn't mean it's impossible.  Before Orr or Gretzky came along, many would say it's impossible to envision a defenseman outscoring forwards by a wide margin, or a forward to score close to 200 points every year, while nobody else was close to 150.  Same thing with Gretzky's best goal scoring seasons. 

Imagine if today a player came along with Gretzky or Mario like greatness (so someone better than Crosby, Ovechkin, or McDavid). Is it impossible that guy could score 160 points every year while the next highest would be approaching 120 or 115?  Nobody is going to score 90 goals in today's era, but is it impossible that such a player could score 70+ goals for many consecutive seasons while the next highest is in the low 50's? 

You can call it "silly" until someone does it.  Gretzky, Orr, and Lemieux did it in hockey.  Babe Ruth and Wilt Chamberlain had many seasons in their sports where they were lapping the field in PPG or home runs.    

9 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Your "devil's advocate" Schick is getting old.  I've seen you rail against "big goalies with big pads" for years.   

And what's wrong with that?  Goalies nowadays do wear too much equipment.  But it's also true that skaters have better equipment and are bigger and stronger than they were in the 80's, let alone during Hull's era.  That's why you cannot just transport 5'10 Bobby Hull, with his wooden stick and no helmet to today's era.  Just like you cannot transport Ovechkin via time machine into an era where he'd be one of the biggest players in the NHL and would have a composite stick and a helmet.  

Time machine transportation is not how to compare players.  If you judge those two players based on their peers, you'd see a similar dominance if we're just looking at goal scoring.  

Hull had five 50 goal seasons.  In two of those seasons, he didn't even play 70 games.  He obviously didn't play 80 games in any of those five seasons.  He also won three Art Ross trophies, and was runner up three more times, so he wasn't just being a one-sided offensive player.  He was scoring goals while doing other things.    

Hull won the Richard trophy 7 times.  He finished runner up twice.  Between 1960 and 1972, he had twelve top 5 finishes in goals.  Just one season where he finished 6th during that span.  That's pretty damn dominant. 

Then he went to play in another league.  If he doesn't go to another league, Ovechkin is likely chasing him for all-time leader in goals.  

If you're going to diminish Hull's accomplishments because of the era (or because you don't like him personally) you can also pick apart other eras similarly.  Players should only be judged by their era and their peers.  And before you go there, there wasn't a lot of NHL ready talent in Europe during Hull's time.  He played against the best professionals there were.  

1 hour ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Says anyone to anyone on LGWs dot com

As if kipwinger isn't annoying enough, he now has an avatar we all want to punch.   

Edited March 4, 2020 by GMRwings1983

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

57 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

I can play the bolded game too.  

Bold 1:  I understand you're talking about goal scoring.  You can certainly make a good argument that Ovechkin is a better goal scorer over his career than Gretzky, even though his peak and dominance isn't as high.  Why did I bring up points and not just goals?  Simply because Gretzky still led the league in points in the 90's, despite the expansion of European players.  Why wouldn't he still lead the league in goals, during the 80's, when he was younger and better, even if the best European players (Soviets) were playing in the NHL in the 80's?  I'm pretty sure Soviets playing in the NHL wouldn't have changed Gretzky's goal numbers in the 80's.  He did very well in International competitions.  If you're suggesting his goal scoring in the 90's went down because of more European players, I don't agree.  There were other reasons.  

Bold 2:  This is simply false.  I can see how goalies are better schooled nowadays, but outside of Tretiak, Gretzky was playing against the best goalies of his era.  You can't just transport Ben Bishop with his giant pads into the 80's, as he would instantly become the best goalie in the world.  Even Jimmy Howard would look good playing back then.  Conversely, Grant Fuhr or Billy Smith transported via time machine would struggle in today's era.  This doesn't mean Gretzky didn't face any good goalies or that goaltending sucked in the 80's.  This is not the way to compare different eras.  He dominated who he had to play against.  Ovechkin is playing against giant goalies who are well schooled and wear lots of pads, but he's also bigger, stronger, and uses better hockey equipment.  Gretzky, Kurri, and Bossy didn't use the kind of sticks players use today.  

I don't see how the forwards or defensemen are better today.  The best defensemen of the 80's are Bourque, Potvin, Coffey, Robinson , Chelios, MacInnis, Stevens, Langway.  Fetisov would be the big omission who didn't play in the league during his prime.  Are you going to tell me that Ovechkin's era has seen a higher caliber of defensemen when it comes to all-time ranking?  I doubt it.  Do I need to name all the great forwards of the 80's besides Gretzky?  Yes, there were some NHL omissions like Makarov, Larionov, and many other Soviets, but on the whole the 80's didn't lack great forwards in the NHL.  That era is loaded will Hall of Fame forwards, even if you eliminate accumulators like Andreychuk, Gartner, and a few others.             

Bold 3:  I covered this already.  This is not a knock on Gretzky's era, minus the Soviet players.  Sweden, Finland, and many other countries weren't loaded with stars back then as compared to today.  We're not talking hundreds of players being held back from playing in the league.  I'm not being presumptuous when I say Gretzky would still dominate that decade regardless of who came to the NHL from the Soviet Union, Sweden, Finland, Czechoslovakia, etc.  Yes, there are more players now from other countries, more diversity, etc.  If that is going to be held against Gretzky's era, you can do so with any era pre-Gretzky.  Maybe Crosby is better than Howe because he's playing against more European players from different countries? 

Neither Wayne nor Gordie should be blamed for world hockey not being as developed during their era.  This isn't like Fedor not fighting in the UFC during his prime or Jack Dempsey refusing to fight black fighters.     

Bold 4:  OK, you didn't have a bold 4, but you mentioned something in another post I wanted to touch upon.  You said that it's silly to expect anyone today to outscore the competition by 25 goals.  It's certainly hard to envision it, but that doesn't mean it's impossible.  Before Orr or Gretzky came along, many would say it's impossible to envision a defenseman outscoring forwards by a wide margin, or a forward to score close to 200 points every year, while nobody else was close to 150.  Same thing with Gretzky's best goal scoring seasons. 

Imagine if today a player came along with Gretzky or Mario like greatness (so someone better than Crosby, Ovechkin, or McDavid). Is it impossible that guy could score 160 points every year while the next highest would be approaching 120 or 115?  Nobody is going to score 90 goals in today's era, but is it impossible that such a player could score 70+ goals for many consecutive seasons while the next highest is in the low 50's? 

You can call it "silly" until someone does it.  Gretzky, Orr, and Lemieux did it in hockey.  Babe Ruth and Wilt Chamberlain had many seasons in their sports where they were lapping the field in PPG or home runs.    

And what's wrong with that?  Goalies nowadays do wear too much equipment.  But it's also true that skaters have better equipment and are bigger and stronger than they were in the 80's, let alone during Hull's era.  That's why you cannot just transport 5'10 Bobby Hull, with his wooden stick and no helmet to today's era.  Just like you cannot transport Ovechkin via time machine into an era where he'd be one of the biggest players in the NHL and would have a composite stick and a helmet.  

Time machine transportation is not how to compare players.  If you judge those two players based on their peers, you'd see a similar dominance if we're just looking at goal scoring.  

Hull had five 50 goal seasons.  In two of those seasons, he didn't even play 70 games.  He obviously didn't play 80 games in any of those five seasons.  He also won three Art Ross trophies, and was runner up three more times, so he wasn't just being a one-sided offensive player.  He was scoring goals while doing other things.    

Hull won the Richard trophy 7 times.  He finished runner up twice.  Between 1960 and 1972, he had twelve top 5 finishes in goals.  Just one season where he finished 6th during that span.  That's pretty damn dominant. 

Then he went to play in another league.  If he doesn't go to another league, Ovechkin is likely chasing him for all-time leader in goals.  

If you're going to diminish Hull's accomplishments because of the era (or because you don't like him personally) you can also pick apart other eras similarly.  Players should only be judged by their era and their peers.  And before you go there, there wasn't a lot of NHL ready talent in Europe during Hull's time.  He played against the best professionals there were.  

As if kipwinger isn't annoying enough, he now has an avatar we all want to punch.   

All you're doing is dragging everything into the weeds.

Ovie scores more goals per game than Gretsky, and he does it in a lower scoring league. Everything else is long-winded BS.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

16 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

All you're doing is dragging everything into the weeds.

Ovie scores more goals per game than Gretsky, and he does it in a lower scoring league. Everything else is long-winded BS.

By 0.01. It's basically a tie. Then you have to default to, ya know, the actual number of goals scored. Only here on LGWs would someone actually have to go into the weeds to try and drive home an obvious point. Jesus. 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

2 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

By 0.01. It's basically a tie. Then you have to default to, ya know, the actual number of goals scored. Only here on LGWs would someone actually have to go into the weeds to try and drive home an obvious point. Jesus. 

He's probably juicin
Wood sticks
Butterfly style
Euros coming over

It's all a wash.

If it's basically a tie then we default to era scoring. Gretsky did the vast majority of his goal scoring in a league that was 3.5 to almost 5 goals per game. Ovie is doing that same scoring in a league that is 2.5 to 3.5 a game. Clear advantage to the Russian.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

27 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

All you're doing is dragging everything into the weeds.

Ovie scores more goals per game than Gretsky, and he does it in a lower scoring league. Everything else is long-winded BS.

Based on that, Mike Bossy was a better goal scorer than Gretzky.  Also, Cy Denneny and Cecil Dye are better goal scorers than Ovechkin.  Bure has a better GPG than Ovechkin, in spite of playing with linemates that were subpar compared to a Backstrom or Kuznetsov.  GPG by itself is lazy.  

Edited March 4, 2020 by GMRwings1983

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

2 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

He's probably juicin
Wood sticks
Butterfly style
Euros coming over

It's all a wash.

If it's basically a tie then we default to era scoring. Gretsky did the vast majority of his goal scoring in a league that was 3.5 to almost 5 goals per game. Ovie is doing that same scoring in a league that is 2.5 to 3.5 a game. Clear advantage to the Russian.

Let's CRLs chose default so he can win argument and finally stfu for now. 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

4 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Based on that, Mike Bossy was a better goal scorer than Gretzky.  Also, Cy Denneny and Cecil Dye are better goal scorers than Ovechkin.  Bure has a better GPG than Ovechkin, besides playing with linemates that were subpar compared to a Backstrom or Kuznetsov.  GPG by itself is lazy.  

Red Herrings.

I'm clearly talking specifically Gretsky and the man poised to break his record.

If we wanna talk Bossy and Bure, sure we can, but they have nothing to do with the former two in the current context

Edited March 4, 2020 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

4 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

He's probably juicin
Wood sticks
Butterfly style
Euros coming over

It's all a wash.

If it's basically a tie then we default to era scoring. Gretsky did the vast majority of his goal scoring in a league that was 3.5 to almost 5 goals per game. Ovie is doing that same scoring in a league that is 2.5 to 3.5 a game. Clear advantage to the Russian.

Gretzky scored 626 goals in the 80's.  The next highest is Kurri, with 474, followed by Goulet, with 438.  What does it matter how many GPG the 1980's had when one player outscored his peers by a wide margin?  

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

Just now, GMRwings1983 said:

Gretzky scored 626 goals in the 80's.  The next highest is Kurri, with 474, followed by Goulet, with 438.  What does it matter how many GPG the 1980's had when one player outscored his peers by a wide margin?  

Is this a serious question?

 

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

9 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Is this a serious question?

 

No, I was ******* kidding.  Yes, it's a serious question.  How many goals do you think Ovechkin would score in the 80's?  How about Hull?  None of us have any idea.  We can only compare how that player scored compared to his peers and make guesses as to the rest.  Gretzky widely outscored his peers in goals during the 80's.  Ovechkin has done the same in his career.  To suggest that Ovechkin would score 1,000 goals easily in Gretzky's era is stupid because it only takes into account GPG as compared to eras.  Players change over time.  They get bigger, stronger, better equipment, etc.  

Anthony Mantha would score 60 goals every season if he suddenly got transported to the 1980's, with no other adjustments.  Doesn't work that way.  You need to think harder on this.  

Edited March 4, 2020 by GMRwings1983