2021 Off-Season (Too Soon?)

[krsmith17 7,191]

16 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

Bad contract for Tampa as they have to get rid of money. Would be a lovely contract for Detroit, having a capable, cup winning center in the lineup. 

I don't know about "lovely contract" or "capable center"... We would have to be heavily compensated (1st round pick, plus) to take on two more years at $5M per for Johnson. And make no mistake, Johnson isn't really a capable top six center anymore. He's playing on the 4th line on a stacked Lightning team. Ideally he would slot in on our 3rd line. I just put him on our 2nd line to appease the anti-Veleno crowd. If we were to acquire Johnson, Veleno would most definitely pass him on the depth chart before that contract ends.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,019]

6 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I don't know about "lovely contract" or "capable center"... We would have to be heavily compensated (1st round pick, plus) to take on two more years at $5M per for Johnson. And make no mistake, Johnson isn't really a capable top six center anymore. He's playing on the 4th line on a stacked Lightning team. Ideally he would slot in on our 3rd line. I just put him on our 2nd line to appease the anti-Veleno crowd. If we were to acquire Johnson, Veleno would most definitely pass him on the depth chart before that contract ends.

No one's anti-Veleno. I assume most think he needs more than a mitt full of NHL games before you get appointed 2C. Even on this team. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

14 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

No one's anti-Veleno. I assume most think he needs more than a mitt full of NHL games before you get appointed 2C. Even on this team. 

I think you may be a little bit anti-Veleno... No?

By the way, I agree with marc in that we should probably go after another middle six center, so that Veleno isn't expected to immediately be our 2C. I do think he looked more than capable in his short stint though, and I do think he can potentially overtake that spot at some point next season. Unless of course, Yzerman significantly upgrades in that area, which I don't see happening...

[The 91 of Ryans 3,019]

8 minutes ago, BarkBurgerman said:

Why are we down on Veleno now?

Kid is only 21 and looked good in his first stint. Sure he didn't score a lot but he's also focused on the defensive side of the puck right now. The anti-veleno crowd just needs to be more patient. He's only 21.

I heard he wants to leave for Montreal. 

[The 91 of Ryans 3,019]

19 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I think you may be a little bit anti-Veleno... No?

Absolutely not. Kid looked great in the limited games he played last year. They should get good value for him as a 30th OA pick. 

 

[The 91 of Ryans 3,019]

Just now, BarkBurgerman said:

Well that's a bit odd considering his favorite team is the Caps

Yeah. Buuut his agent is some dude. 

[marcaractac 3,963]

17 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I don't know about "lovely contract" or "capable center"... We would have to be heavily compensated (1st round pick, plus) to take on two more years at $5M per for Johnson. And make no mistake, Johnson isn't really a capable top six center anymore. He's playing on the 4th line on a stacked Lightning team. Ideally he would slot in on our 3rd line. I just put him on our 2nd line to appease the anti-Veleno crowd. If we were to acquire Johnson, Veleno would most definitely pass him on the depth chart before that contract ends.

I mean yes, the entire point of taking the contract is to get an asset from it. That goes without saying. I'd have no issues with 3 years of Johnson at 5 mil per what so ever. His decrease in production is more to do with Tampa's depth chart than anything. He is very much a capable middle 6 center who I am betting can still score at a 0.5 ppg pace. His fourth line position is a reflection of how strong a roster Tampa has then how capable he is. Their center depth is insane. 

If we got Johnson, I'd have no concern about Veleno passing him on the depth chart in time. My concern would be not having a better center in the system for that role.  

[krsmith17 7,191]

16 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

I mean yes, the entire point of taking the contract is to get an asset from it. That goes without saying. I'd have no issues with 3 years of Johnson at 5 mil per what so ever. His decrease in production is more to do with Tampa's depth chart than anything. He is very much a capable middle 6 center who I am betting can still score at a 0.5 ppg pace. His fourth line position is a reflection of how strong a roster Tampa has then how capable he is. Their center depth is insane. 

Jesus. Three more years? For some reason I was thinking it was just two. I'm not sure I'd take on that contract, as I highly doubt Tampa would be willing to pay the high ask. The starting point would have to be a 1st round pick and a top prospect (Foote / Alnefelt).

I think on this team, given middle six minutes, Johnson would be a 30-40 point center.

24 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

If we got Johnson, I'd have no concern about Veleno passing him on the depth chart in time. My concern would be not having a better center in the system for that role.  

If everything goes right for Veleno, I can see him becoming a Cirelli level 2C.

[marcaractac 3,963]

53 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

If everything goes right for Veleno, I can see him becoming a Cirelli level 2C.

I'd rather see Yzerman obtain a Point-level center.

[krsmith17 7,191]

28 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

I'd rather see Yzerman obtain a Point-level center.

Well, sure... I'd also rather a top 10 center than a top 50 center... Where should Yzerman obtain this top 10 center?

[LeftWinger 5,153]

In Holland-type fashion, he also hands out a FULL NMC. Oh well, I knew he wasn't going to be signed here, but it was fun to dream!

[The 91 of Ryans 3,019]

41 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Well, sure... I'd also rather a top 10 center than a top 50 center... Where should Yzerman obtain this top 10 center?

Well there's no tree you can go to and pick one. According to Holland. 

[Scott R Lucidi 675]

37 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

In Holland-type fashion, he also hands out a FULL NMC. Oh well, I knew he wasn't going to be signed here, but it was fun to dream!

Surprised Edmonton cant make any progress with the talent they have.

[marcaractac 3,963]

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

Well, sure... I'd also rather a top 10 center than a top 50 center... Where should Yzerman obtain this top 10 center?

There is this thing called the draft

[LeftWinger 5,153]

Also looks like Toronto is going with The vets. Albeit at cheap deals, they are going to eat away at that $10M in cap pretty quickly. Simmonds re-signed a 2 year deal worth $1.8M. 

I still think they lose all of Hyman, Bogosian and Andersson.. at least. I'm a fan of Hyman, and honestly wouldn't be against Andersson coming here either.

[krsmith17 7,191]

45 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Well there's no tree you can go to and pick one. According to Holland. 

And he wasn't wrong. Acquiring a Point-level player isn't easy. I think Raymond could become that player (except on the wing). 

9 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

There is this thing called the draft

Sure, but even through the draft, you're likely not getting a Point-level center without a top 3-5 pick and a bit of luck in the selection and development.

I just think it was kind of odd (stating the obvious) to say that you would rather a Point-level center than a Veleno(or Cirelli)-level center...

[marcaractac 3,963]

13 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

And he wasn't wrong. Acquiring a Point-level player isn't easy. I think Raymond could become that player (except on the wing). 

Sure, but even through the draft, you're likely not getting a Point-level center without a top 3-5 pick and a bit of luck in the selection and development.

I just think it was kind of odd (stating the obvious) to say that you would rather a Point-level center than a Veleno(or Cirelli)-level center...

I don't see what is odd about thinking we need something better than Veleno as a complement to Larkin as a top 6 center. If we already had a top 10 center? Sure, Veleno would likely be fine. I just don't think a Larkin/Veleno combo down the middle is enough to cut it. 

It also hasn't been uncommon in recent years to see quality centers available in the 6-12 range. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

14 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

I don't see what is odd about thinking we need something better than Veleno as a complement to Larkin as a top 6 center. If we already had a top 10 center? Sure, Veleno would likely be fine. I just don't think a Larkin/Veleno combo down the middle is enough to cut it. 

It also hasn't been uncommon in recent years to see quality centers available in the 6-12 range. 

I simply said that if everything goes right, I can see Veleno becoming a Cirelli-level center. Your response was, you'd rather see Yzerman obtain a Point-level center. The comment just didn't make much sense to me...

I don't think we "need" better center depth than Larkin-Veleno-Rasmussen, but it sure wouldn't hurt. What we "need" is continued growth and development from those three guys. Obviously anyone would want a better center slotted on top, bumping all three down a line, but it's not likely unless we get extremely lucky in the draft, or draft lottery (Wright).

Quality centers in the 6-12 range, sure. But top 10 centers in the league at that range, highly unlikely. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

10 minutes ago, BarkBurgerman said:

Straight up. Larkin is a solid shutdown 2C... but I don't ever see Ras or Veleno being true 1C's that push Larkin down to the 2C spot he would thrive in.

Raymond either needs to go back to playing center, or we gotta find a better C in one of these drafts soonish

I think you can build a forward core with good, not great centers, as long as they're surrounded by elite wingers.

In saying that, I definitely wouldn't be opposed to trying Raymond at center. He has all the tools, and like I mentioned previously, reminds me of Point in a lot of ways.

[marcaractac 3,963]

12 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I simply said that if everything goes right, I can see Veleno becoming a Cirelli-level center. Your response was, you'd rather see Yzerman obtain a Point-level center. The comment just didn't make much sense to me...

I don't think we "need" better center depth than Larkin-Veleno-Rasmussen, but it sure wouldn't hurt. What we "need" is continued growth and development from those three guys. Obviously anyone would want a better center slotted on top, bumping all three down a line, but it's not likely unless we get extremely lucky in the draft, or draft lottery (Wright).

Quality centers in the 6-12 range, sure. But top 10 centers in the league at that range, highly unlikely. 

You said you think Veleno would push Johnson out of the 2C role in time if we acquired him. I more or less said I hope we can do better than that as a 2C if we wanna be legit, perennial contenders. Do not see what doesn't make sense here.

We need continued growth and development from what we do have AND the addition of a legitimate top 6 center. You're stuck in this idea that I'm saying we need a top 10 center here, because I used Point as an example. When in fact, I'm saying a Veleno/Cirelli type of 2C is fine if you have a guy like Point as your 1C. Larkin is not that, nor ever will be (nor is he expected to be). We simply need a better 2C than Veleno/Cirelli if Larkin is the top guy. If this still doesn't make sense to you, let's just leave it be.  

[krsmith17 7,191]

27 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

You said you think Veleno would push Johnson out of the 2C role in time if we acquired him. I more or less said I hope we can do better than that as a 2C if we wanna be legit, perennial contenders. Do not see what doesn't make sense here.

We need continued growth and development from what we do have AND the addition of a legitimate top 6 center. You're stuck in this idea that I'm saying we need a top 10 center here, because I used Point as an example. When in fact, I'm saying a Veleno/Cirelli type of 2C is fine if you have a guy like Point as your 1C. Larkin is not that, nor ever will be (nor is he expected to be). We simply need a better 2C than Veleno/Cirelli if Larkin is the top guy. If this still doesn't make sense to you, let's just leave it be.  

After the explanation it makes sense, but based on what I said and your response, it didn't. It's like me saying that I think Johansson can be a Kronwall-level player, and you saying you'd prefer Lidstrom... Anyway, it doesn't matter.

Again, I don't think that's necessarily a "need". It's a want. Every team wants better players. Team's have won it all without elite centers, and team's with elite centers get bounced in the 1st round every year. There are many ways to build a team. Of course Yzerman would love to add an elite center, as well as an(other) elite defenseman and goalie, but it just isn't that easy. Unless we get lucky in the draft / draft lottery, it's going to be tough to find a center to slot above Larkin.

[krsmith17 7,191]

9 minutes ago, BarkBurgerman said:

I don't wholly disagree. But that's really banking on the fact that our wingers are elite. Vrana/Bertuzzi/Fabbri aren't. Zadina has a ways to go. Raymond and Berggren still have the news out on them.

But yeah you could role Larkin/Veleno/Ras down the middle if your wingers are Patrick Kane and Nikita Kucherov.

I think Zadina could get there. Maybe not elite, but a legitimate top winger in the league. Raymond definitely has the potential to be elite. If you have two top end wingers, and a bunch of other really good wingers, I think you can win with Larkin-Veleno-Ras down the middle. This core that Yzerman is building is still extremely young. They have a ton of room to grow.

Of course we'd like to add another bonified top center, but I don't see one available at 6 in this year's draft, and depending on what happens in next year's draft lottery, we may not get one then either.

[marcaractac 3,963]

19 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

After the explanation it makes sense, but based on what I said and your response, it didn't. It's like me saying that I think Johansson can be a Kronwall-level player, and you saying you'd prefer Lidstrom... Anyway, it doesn't matter.

Again, I don't think that's necessarily a "need". It's a want. Every team wants better players. Team's have won it all without elite centers, and team's with elite centers get bounced in the 1st round every year. There are many ways to build a team. Of course Yzerman would love to add an elite center, as well as an(other) elite defenseman and goalie, but it just isn't that easy. Unless we get lucky in the draft / draft lottery, it's going to be tough to find a center to slot above Larkin.

Fair enough. It's allergy season and I haven't been sleeping, in my defense haha.

While teams have won without elite centers, it's always the teams with them that keep making deep playoff runs. While getting a high end 1C is unlikely, I don't think it is unlikely to find a really good play making center that can give us a 1A 1B scenario. If we aren;t gonna have that elite top center in the league, we need really good depth down the middle. I think finding a Susuki/Necas type would be lovely. Then we can have Ras on the wing which I feel he is far more effective as. 

Ras would be great to have to fill in down the middle when need be, but I like the idea of having him on the wing and forechecking and causing havoc in front of the net. If we have the depth to have Veleno as the 3C over Ras, the team would be much better off for it, as we'd get more scoring out of the third line in that case. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

14 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

While teams have won without elite centers, it's always the teams with them that keep making deep playoff runs. While getting a high end 1C is unlikely, I don't think it is unlikely to find a really good play making center that can give us a 1A 1B scenario. If we aren;t gonna have that elite top center in the league, we need really good depth down the middle. I think finding a Susuki/Necas type would be lovely. Then we can have Ras on the wing which I feel he is far more effective as. 

Yeah, Necas over Rasmussen would have been really nice right about now...

16 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

Ras would be great to have to fill in down the middle when need be, but I like the idea of having him on the wing and forechecking and causing havoc in front of the net. If we have the depth to have Veleno as the 3C over Ras, the team would be much better off for it, as we'd get more scoring out of the third line in that case. 

Completely agree.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,019]

17 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Yeah, Necas over Rasmussen would have been really nice right about now...

Completely agree.

Yeah. Let's build a team entirely of soft skilled players. 

Someone hasn't been watching the playoffs for the last 30 years..........