Detroit Lions Offseasn Thread

[Heaton 1]

What the f*** is the difference? Kitna, Harrington, Manning, Brady; it doesn't matter whos name is on the back, as long as the Lions logo is on the front no QB will be successful here with the Fords owning the team, Millen running it and a lame duck coach 'coaching' it.

[Guest ZetterBurger40]

What the f*** is the difference? Kitna, Harrington, Manning, Brady; it doesn't matter whos name is on the back, as long as the Lions logo is on the front no QB will be successful here with the Fords owning the team, Millen running it and a lame duck coach 'coaching' it.

This is true. Notice the trends with the Detroit Lions franchise: Ford refuses to fire Millen for the sake of his own ego, Marinelli refuses to bench Kitna for the sake of his, and NOW we have ANOTHER Marinelli on the staff when the first one can't even do his job!? This team is a circus freakshow.

[betterREDthandead 58]

I never said that Kitna never had a starting job, I said that he could never hold one. Second, you're right, his career does follow a progression- from bad to worse. "Better than the usual bad-team qb"? The guy is 34 years old and holds the record of 31-49 as a starting quarterback in the National Football league- TRUST ME, the Lions did not find a diamond in the rough by signing him, which is exactly why he would be riding the pine for any respectable franchise or possibly back in NFL Europe where he belongs. You're right, there are many other holes that need to be filled before the Lions will be a successful franchise, which I don't think they ever will be, but quarterback is the key slot that most successful teams build around- after last night's debacle, I'm second guessing my desire to draft Quinn, but that doesn't mean that I think Kitna is the way to go. This organization is notrorious for bad moves (and non-moves)- As Lions fans, we neglect the fact that free-agency even exists due to our team's inactivity in the area; why can't Ford/Millen sign a capable QB that knows how to win? Probably a combination of the fact that they aren't smart enough, and that NOBODY EXCEPT FOR KITNA wants to come here. BTW, I would rather have Aaron Brooks.

Martz's offense is garbage too. High risk/high reward??!!! I haven't seen any reward yet! There is no such thing as a running game in Mikey's scheme, and we don't have the talent at WR/QB to bomb the ball down the field after every snap. There is one thing that Martz had in STL that he doesn't have here...actually, two things...TALENT and DISCIPLINE. Bottom line is that Kitna is a "veteran"...I prefer the term "old" qb in his case, that should know when to throw and when not to throw the ball. The amount of turnovers that he committed this year was absolutely absurd- not only the INT's, but the 4th quarter INT's when the Lions were in a position to POSSIBLY come back, and the fumbles, fumbles, and more fumbles. You will NEVER win with a qb like Kitna, especially with this team.

Like I said, there is a reason that he's playing in Detroit, and its not because they thought he was the right fit.

Specifically what you said is that Kitna "has never held a starting job in his NFL career" which is basically the same thing as "has never been a starting QB in his NFL career."

Kitna's no diamond in the rough, but he can hold on to the QB job til we actually start upgrading the talent elsewhere on the team. You'd rather have Aaron Brooks?? He's not even in the top 30 for passer rating. 3 TDs against 8 picks. He was replaced by Andrew Walter who threw 3 TDs against 13 picks. Kitna was 17th in passer rating this year, which is nothing to write home about, but it's better than the following supposedly studly quarterbacks: Eli Manning, Matt Hasselbeck, Michael Vick, Ben Roethlisberger, Alex Smith, Matt Leinart, Rex Grossman, Brett Favre.....and Joey Harrington. No reward to Martz's risk-reward system? How about the fact that Kitna (you know, the Kitna you think sucks) was able to throw for over 4,000 yards, 21 TDs, and lead the league in completions? Either Martz's system sucks, or Kitna sucks....probably neither, but certainly not both.

No, you won't win with Kitna as the QB. But he's not the cause of the 3-13 record, either. Out of the 11 starters on offense, he's like 9th on the priority for replacing.

Rather have Aaron Brooks. Feh. Your evaluation of quarterbacks needs serious work.

[Guest ZetterBurger40]

Specifically what you said is that Kitna "has never held a starting job in his NFL career" which is basically the same thing as "has never been a starting QB in his NFL career."

Kitna's no diamond in the rough, but he can hold on to the QB job til we actually start upgrading the talent elsewhere on the team. You'd rather have Aaron Brooks?? He's not even in the top 30 for passer rating. 3 TDs against 8 picks. He was replaced by Andrew Walter who threw 3 TDs against 13 picks. Kitna was 17th in passer rating this year, which is nothing to write home about, but it's better than the following supposedly studly quarterbacks: Eli Manning, Matt Hasselbeck, Michael Vick, Ben Roethlisberger, Alex Smith, Matt Leinart, Rex Grossman, Brett Favre.....and Joey Harrington. No reward to Martz's risk-reward system? How about the fact that Kitna (you know, the Kitna you think sucks) was able to throw for over 4,000 yards, 21 TDs, and lead the league in completions? Either Martz's system sucks, or Kitna sucks....probably neither, but certainly not both.

No, you won't win with Kitna as the QB. But he's not the cause of the 3-13 record, either. Out of the 11 starters on offense, he's like 9th on the priority for replacing.

Rather have Aaron Brooks. Feh. Your evaluation of quarterbacks needs serious work.

You're right, specifically what I said is "Kitna has never held a starting job in his NFL career", as opposed to "Kitna has never had a starting job in his NFL career", or also "Kitna has never been a starter in the NFL". On to other things:

Wow. What a seriously skewed comparison of these two bad QBs. You're taking Aaron Brooks' stats from a team that is the only team in the NFL that is worse than our disgustingly bad Lions? An equally horrible team that does not inflate the pass yds stat by utilizing a completely unsuccessful Mike Martz offense? Kitna is no better than Brooks- in fact, if that's the stat that you want to fixate on (since its the only one that Kitna is remotely successful in), Brooks has thrown for more yds in the seasons that he's started than Kitna has- take his EIGHT games this year out of the equation, I don't think you counted him in Jonny Ballgame's "starting" totals, so lets not count them for good ol' Aaron either.

You're right, Kitna did throw for over 4,000 yards this year, but so would any other quarterback placed into a system that revolved around going to the air. You don't think that Smith/Leinart/etc could put up "Kitna numbers" in this system? That is absurd- if Kitna can do it, anyone can do it. Detroit ran the ball fewer than any other team in the league, are you going to argue that Kitna would have thrown for 6,000 if they were able to deceive the opposing defense with play action more often? Come on. I'm not claiming that Brooks is good, but he is better than Kitna- that is irrelevant, however; The fact is that Kitna is a 34 year old gypsy of a QB- he's bounced from team to team for a reason- nobody else wanted him as a starter, so he ended up in football hell because of it- any of the QB's that you listed could have put up big passing yardage numbers in this offense, and I'd venture to say that quite a few of those QBs would have ended the season a tad better than 3-13; without all of the game-killing 4th quarter turnovers too.

[The_Cub 0]

Way to keep the good times rolling Mr. Ford!!! This organization has been a joke my entire life. Thanks for not giving up the dream.

I only watched a couple games this season. Kitna appeared to be running for his life most of the time. My solution. Draft fastest guy available put him at QB and go for comedy gold Benny Hill style. I mean could it really be less entertaining than when they actually attempt to play football?

They could draft a one legged player and fools would still go to the games. So why should Ford Senile fire Millen? The team makes tons of cash. There is no incentive to win.

[betterREDthandead 58]

Wow. What a seriously skewed comparison of these two bad QBs. You're taking Aaron Brooks' stats from a team that is the only team in the NFL that is worse than our disgustingly bad Lions? An equally horrible team that does not inflate the pass yds stat by utilizing a completely unsuccessful Mike Martz offense? Kitna is no better than Brooks- in fact, if that's the stat that you want to fixate on (since its the only one that Kitna is remotely successful in), Brooks has thrown for more yds in the seasons that he's started than Kitna has- take his EIGHT games this year out of the equation, I don't think you counted him in Jonny Ballgame's "starting" totals, so lets not count them for good ol' Aaron either.

You're right, Kitna did throw for over 4,000 yards this year, but so would any other quarterback placed into a system that revolved around going to the air. You don't think that Smith/Leinart/etc could put up "Kitna numbers" in this system? That is absurd- if Kitna can do it, anyone can do it. Detroit ran the ball fewer than any other team in the league, are you going to argue that Kitna would have thrown for 6,000 if they were able to deceive the opposing defense with play action more often? Come on. I'm not claiming that Brooks is good, but he is better than Kitna- that is irrelevant, however; The fact is that Kitna is a 34 year old gypsy of a QB- he's bounced from team to team for a reason- nobody else wanted him as a starter, so he ended up in football hell because of it- any of the QB's that you listed could have put up big passing yardage numbers in this offense, and I'd venture to say that quite a few of those QBs would have ended the season a tad better than 3-13; without all of the game-killing 4th quarter turnovers too.

Well, which is it, the system or the quarterback? If the system is unsuccessful, and Kitna's as bad as you say, how on earth did he end up with such gaudy-looking stats?

The reason we ran the ball less than anyone has nothing to do with the system. Marshall Faulk got more than his share of carries under the Martz offense. We don't run the ball because we can't run the ball. That's a product of the offensive line personnel, not the system. Do you honestly think Blaine Saipaia and Rex Tucker are the answers for the line? We also abandoned the run because we were always playing from behind. 28th in the league and 30th in the league in yards given up and points given up, respectively.

Sure, maybe some of those pretty good QBs might have ended up better than 3-13. Why, they might have been 4-12 or 5-11. BFD. Give us the offensive line that those QBs have, and we might actually be 9-7.

[Heaton 1]

We don't run the ball because we can't run the ball.

Aha, but at the same time we don't even try to run to run the ball. Last in the league in attempts, last in the league in attempts on 1st down. The philosophy of throwing so much with a QB who doesn't make good decisions is just a recipe for disaster.

[mannysBETTER3434 1]

I'm reading on a lot of Lions forums talking about trading down and drafting Alan Branch from U-M. If I'm Alan Branch and read this I'm heading back to Ann Arbor for another year!

Edited January 6, 2007 by mannysBETTER3434

[Guest ZetterBurger40]

Well, which is it, the system or the quarterback? If the system is unsuccessful, and Kitna's as bad as you say, how on earth did he end up with such gaudy-looking stats?

The reason we ran the ball less than anyone has nothing to do with the system. Marshall Faulk got more than his share of carries under the Martz offense. We don't run the ball because we can't run the ball. That's a product of the offensive line personnel, not the system. Do you honestly think Blaine Saipaia and Rex Tucker are the answers for the line? We also abandoned the run because we were always playing from behind. 28th in the league and 30th in the league in yards given up and points given up, respectively.

Sure, maybe some of those pretty good QBs might have ended up better than 3-13. Why, they might have been 4-12 or 5-11. BFD. Give us the offensive line that those QBs have, and we might actually be 9-7.

Kitna's stats aren't gaudy- he has a big passing yardage total, that's it. His INT's, fumbles, and ability to commit a drive killing turnover far outweigh big passing ydg numbers when your record is 3-13. 21 TD, 22 INT, and 11 Fumbles is gaudy for sure, but in a bad way.

It would be a BFD if one of those other QBs went 4-12 or 5-11 here, either is an improvement from 3-13, and at this point, that is what we need. Although we as Lions fans love these high draft picks, in the NFL you need to win ballgames; 5-11 would be a step in the right direction- we'd still suck, but not 3-13 suck.

I don't disagree that our offensive line blows. Our defensive line blows too- just like our secondary and our qb.

Edited January 6, 2007 by ZetterBurger40

[timothy1997 0]

I'm reading on a lot of Lions forums talking about trading down and drafting Alan Branch from U-M. If I'm Alan Branch and read this I'm heading back to Ann Arbor for another year!

That depends. If you want to play a lot on the field, then the Lions are your team. You know the offense will run the "3 and out" to perfection, keeping the defense on the field for a long period of time while Michigan will run ball control, keeping their defense off the field.

[mannysBETTER3434 1]

That depends. If you want to play a lot on the field, then the Lions are your team. You know the offense will run the "3 and out" to perfection, keeping the defense on the field for a long period of time while Michigan will run ball control, keeping their defense off the field.

Very true...

[timothy1997 0]

Lions eyeing Quinn

Not a good sign. I don't see where by drafting Quinn at 2 would help the Lions in anyway. Draft Thomas. Draft Johnson. Just don't draft Quinn.

[Lou_Siffer 1]

If I had to bet right now, I'd say the Lions will be trading down once, possibly even twice if possible down to the 10-13 range and taking CB Leon Hall. Best case scenario is Arizona offers them a 2nd to move up to #2 to get their guy Thomas, then someone else makes an offer for the #5 since this is still too high for Hall. This makes alot of sense i think. They signed Travis Fisher but theres no way they can think he addresses the need there....they still have a gaping hole. If they had gotten a legit #1 CB then i'd say maybe roll the dice with a Stanley Wilson or Keith Smith for your #2 and hope for the best. But not with Travis Fisher as your best corner. Hall is the most logical direction at this point. The Calvin Johnson/Brady Quinn stuff is all a smoke screen.

[Lou_Siffer 1]

Here's my current projection:

1) Oakland -WR Calvin Johnson (Moss will be dealt prior to draft is my thinking here..)

2) Arizona - OT Joe Thomas (acquired from Det for 2nd rd pick)

3) Cleveland - QB Brady Quinn

4) Tampa Bay - DE Jamaal Anderson

5) Buffalo - RB Adrian Peterson (acquired from Det for 2nd rd pick +, in an effort to leapfrog Houston)

6)Washington - DE Gaines Adams

7) Minnesota - QB Jamarcus Russell (Daunte clone?)

8)Atlanta - S Laron Landry

9)Miami - DT Alan Branch

10) Houston -OT Levi Brown

11) San Francisco - LB Patrick Willis

12) Detroit - CB Leon Hall

I know its not this easy but if this were to happen the Lions would have 3 second round picks, and address a big need with their first pick. They could then have the ability to move up via trade into the first for their second selection...or package a couple of their newly acquired later 5th rd picks with their 3rd to move up into the late 2nd round (which would give them 4 second rounders!)

Edited March 24, 2007 by Lou_Siffer

[mannysBETTER3434 1]

Here's my current projection:

1) Oakland -WR Calvin Johnson (Moss will be dealt prior to draft is my thinking here..)

2) Arizona - OT Joe Thomas (acquired from Det for 2nd rd pick)

3) Cleveland - QB Brady Quinn

4) Tampa Bay - DE Jamaal Anderson

5) Buffalo - RB Adrian Peterson (acquired from Det for 2nd rd pick +, in an effort to leapfrog Houston)

6)Washington - DE Gaines Adams

7) Minnesota - QB Jamarcus Russell (Daunte clone?)

8)Atlanta - S Laron Landry

9)Miami - DT Alan Branch

10) Houston -OT Levi Brown

11) San Francisco - LB Patrick Willis

12) Detroit - CB Leon Hall

I know its not this easy but if this were to happen the Lions would have 3 second round picks, and address a big need with their first pick. They could then have the ability to move up via trade into the first for their second selection...or package a couple of their newly acquired later 5th rd picks with their 3rd to move up into the late 2nd round (which would give them 4 second rounders!)

I don't think Hall will be a Lion....I hope not. I think Hall will wind up in Houston or Miami. I think OAK has no chance but to take Russel.

[Lou_Siffer 1]

I don't think Hall will be a Lion....I hope not. I think Hall will wind up in Houston or Miami. I think OAK has no chance but to take Russel.

On the contrary, if theyre forced to trade Moss i think they have no choice but to take Calvin Johnson. If they make amends with Moss then yeah...theyll take Russell.

[timothy1997 0]

While I want the Lions to go after a QB in the draft, I don't want them to waste their top pick on a QB. Second round or later is a different story.

Trent Edwards or Drew Stanton are alright for me in the 2nd round.

While I would love to see the Lions draft Drew, I think they are better off with Trent Edwards. Stanton tries to force the play too many times and we certain don't need a QB who throws a lot of interceptions. His athletic ability tho is the reason to draft him. Amazing talent.

Trent Edwards after watching footage of him, seems to be a better QB prospect. He has passing abilities that rank right up their with the top 2 players. The only knock on him is injuries and inconsistencies in games.

Could even be a late round steal in the draft.

What does everyone else think? The Lions need a QB and to me as long as they don't draft Russell or Quinn, I am fine with whomever is left.

[mannysBETTER3434 1]

I was thinking the same thing on Edwards. I would love to get him with our first 2nd rounder. I like Edwards over Stanton too, because with our O-line Drew will be running all over which means: 1)- better chance of getting hurt. 2) Forcing too many throws like you just said. I'll take Stanton or Edwards before Quinn though....

[Airborn 0]

I've haven't seen enough of Edwards to judge who's the better prospect, but I will say that I really like Stanton. This coming from a UM fan.

I think Stanton was hampered by bad coaching and teammates who didn't care as much as he did. The guy has the heart of a lion (no pun intended), he's mobile, and has good arm strength and accuracy. Maybe his decision making wasn't always the best, but I think that came mostly from the situation he was put in.

If this guy played for an elite program like UM or (gulp) Ohio State, he'd be a top 15 pick IMO.

[BlakChamber 8]

No no no no no...I do not want Drew Stanton anywhere near the Lions.

I'm a big fan of Stanton and want him to have a long and successful NFL career. The surest way NOT to achieve that is to play QB for the Lions.

[timothy1997 0]

good to see most of are thinking on the same page about Stanton. I mean, I loved the guy at MSU...but I just dont think he fits this system. The Lions have tried too many times in the past to draft a QB and then build a system around him. The problem has been that the Lions dont have a o-line in which to begin the system. The play is done when the ball is snapped. Draft Joe Thomas from Wisconsin. Get a few more Defensive lineman and sneak in a QB like Edwards in round 2 or 3.

[mannysBETTER3434 1]

Everyone thinks we will draft Gaines Adams...not a bad pick, but we need a O-line! Draft Joe Thomas with our first pick, and take a D-linemen in round 2...D-line is loaded with talent this year, and there will be guys like Lamaar Woodley still in round 2.

Then next year we can draft Broham, Henne, or Brennen when we finally got a offensive line

Edited April 17, 2007 by mannysBETTER3434

[Airborn 0]

I like Adams as the pick,. From reading reports, he seems to be the guy they like, only they're afraid #2 is too early for him. I say screw that. If he's they guy you like, either take him at #2 or trade down and take him later. Sure they'll probably get hammered by "draft experts" if they take him at 2, but who cares.

The Tampa 2 needs a good pass rush to be successful, and he should definitely provide that. The scouting reports compare him to Julius Peppers, only smaller. In fact, if he were a couple inches taller, he'd be rated way higher than Thomas.

I also think he'd have a good chance of success on the Lions, because there's no way teams could double team him with Rogers in the middle.

[mannysBETTER3434 1]

I was listening to sports radio, and they put out a rumor about the Lions. I can't see this rumor happening, but I thought I would share it.

Lions trade thier No. 2 pick to TB for Simion Rice, and TB's 4th overall pick. With the 4th pick we can still draft Gaines Adams.

[timothy1997 0]

I was listening to sports radio, and they put out a rumor about the Lions. I can't see this rumor happening, but I thought I would share it.

Lions trade thier No. 2 pick to TB for Simion Rice, and TB's 4th overall pick. With the 4th pick we can still draft Gaines Adams.

I would love that move if the Lions can pull it off. I think Peterson and Quinn are the only players I DON'T want the Lions to draft.