Mark Spizzirri's take on the Wings

[TheLegend19 1]

I would be STRONGLY against trading Schneider- the Wings will live or die with their PP in the playoffs, and getting rid of him would be like pulling the plug.

I agree. We can't get rid of Schneider is we're gearing up for a playoff run. I wouldn't be opposed if we didn't re-sign him in the offseason, though.

[Guest ZetterBurger40]

Oh well, but to be honest... I'm sure most of us we'd be happy to see any sort of deal. If it takes Matt, I wouldn't like it personally, but at least its something

Quotes like this make me glad that there is no fan voting for team transactions.

[Guest Crymson]

Quotes like this make me glad that there is no fan voting for team transactions.

No s***. I feel continuously astonished by those on this board who think that any deal would be a good deal.

Okay, let's trade Schneider for Mark Mowers. Whoopety doo.

[timsummers 0]

Nick doesn't have the power shot that Schneider brings to the PP. When there's only 4 men on the ice, they don't have much of a choice whether or not to take away the point. That's up to the Wings to distrubute the puck and force them to move around. Nick is already vidal to our powerplay, why swtich him

Why do you think Scneider is so bad? Playing on the 3rd line... He's getting up in age, but the guy is still producing

Sorry if I was confusing, i'll try to explain a little better. All I meant is that you stated earlier that you wanted to make Lidstrom takeover Schneider's duties on the PP. What I meant to say is Nick already playing a vital role as the other defensemen on the PP. To move him to Schneider role could easily disrupt our PP, especially with Matt having the better shot. Also, you said teams are taking away the point shot on PP (Matt's best spot to shot). I think that's up to our guys to keep passing on the PP and make their 4 move around as much as possible, so that we can still get that shot on point. Idk if that helps, if not, i give up

"I just think Schneider is a defensive liability. Especially playing with Kronwall. I'm just echoing Spizzirri's comments here. I'd feel better having a more reliable defensive defensemen to compliment Kronwall on the 2nd pairing."

Kronwall hasn't played well this year and has shown little improvement. You talk about Schneider being unreliable, but since mid December when Kronwall came back, he hasn't really done much

just becuase his shot is harder doesnt mean that it is better. Lids can get the shots through to the goalie or to homer so he is able to tip them. Lately schneids is better at hitting the defender right in front of him with the puck than the goalie.

[Guest Crymson]

Do you believe that Kronwall the way he has played, deserves the 1st defensive pairing?

While forward lines are generally put together based on skill level--the best players go on the first line, and so on--defensive pairing is not necessarily done the same way. If anything, I think the idea last year was to put our weakest defenseman with our strongest defenseman, hence Lilja and Lidstrom. If Kronwall is currently our weakest d-man--and I feel that he certainly merits this classification--then he should logically pair up with Lidstrom.

Should a case arise when our best defensemen must play together against an especially good line--I recall that Lidstrom was always on the ice against Hull in the playoffs in the old days--then that could be easily done.

[chrisdetroit 189]

Er...the top 4 in last years playoffs wasn't even as he said (Lidstrom, Kronwall, Schneider, Chelios), was it? I seem to remember Lilja being in the top pairing and Chelios in the 3rd pairing. Markov in place of Lilja alone would make the defense better than last year's playoffs. Yes, Calgary and Anaheim probably have a better top-4 than us. Guess what? They have a better top-4 than 27 other teams, too. This guy is crazy if he thinks we need to acquire another top-4 defensemen before the deadline. With what is likely one of the top-3 defense corps in the league, our need for a top-6 winger is much great at the moment.

Finaly somebody is talking sense.

[norrisnick 1]

Do you believe that Kronwall the way he has played, deserves the 1st defensive pairing?

Worked for Sweden at the Olympics. Plus with Nik being a good skater, he could in theory help balance Nick's less than fleet-of-footedness. Then Danny can babysit Schneider on the 2nd pairing.

[Feldmarschall 9]

There's one major concern I'd have with moving Schneider. Williams will get more time on the point. That's pretty scary.

[Lou_Siffer 1]

Ummmmmm----we have the best defense in the league.

EDIT: At the moment, Kronwall sucks ass.

Oh PLEASE!

Better than the Flames and Ducks? Hell no. Those are two off the top of my head.

[norrisnick 1]

There's one major concern I'd have with moving Schneider. Williams will get more time on the point. That's pretty scary.

That's where Babcock's fondness for Willy runs afoul. Last season Hudler ran the AHL's best offense and PP from the point. Also Mikael Samuelsson played the point for Team Sweden at the World Championships. Both are far better passers and have more accurate shots than Willy. Sammy is also bigger, faster, and more defensively aware. Hudler is just better offensively and about on par defensively. But I think Hudler would panic a bit less under pressure, but he'd have a harder time chasing a guy down if he got beat at the blueline.

Then there's Chelios who has been begging for PP time for over a decade.

[HomeNugget 2]

the red wings only average 2.36 goals against a game and andhave 144 total goals against. 2nd and 3rd best in the league. they have the best team plus/minus in the league. i don't think defense is a problem.

edit: they also face the fewest shots.

Edited February 22, 2007 by HomeNugget

[Guest Crymson]

That's where Babcock's fondness for Willy runs afoul. Last season Hudler ran the AHL's best offense and PP from the point. Also Mikael Samuelsson played the point for Team Sweden at the World Championships. Both are far better passers and have more accurate shots than Willy. Sammy is also bigger, faster, and more defensively aware. Hudler is just better offensively and about on par defensively. But I think Hudler would panic a bit less under pressure, but he'd have a harder time chasing a guy down if he got beat at the blueline.

Then there's Chelios who has been begging for PP time for over a decade.

Samuelsson did play the PP before his injury.

[norrisnick 1]

Samuelsson did play the PP before his injury.

Not at the point, which I believe is the main worry about possibly "losing" Schneider.

[Zeke 5]

That's where Babcock's fondness for Willy runs afoul. Last season Hudler ran the AHL's best offense and PP from the point. Also Mikael Samuelsson played the point for Team Sweden at the World Championships. Both are far better passers and have more accurate shots than Willy. Sammy is also bigger, faster, and more defensively aware. Hudler is just better offensively and about on par defensively. But I think Hudler would panic a bit less under pressure, but he'd have a harder time chasing a guy down if he got beat at the blueline.

Then there's Chelios who has been begging for PP time for over a decade.

If Schneids is moved or not re-signed,should we consider aquiring Aucoin from the Blackhawks.I know he's getting 4 mil per year,but I'm sure Schneids will be asking for 3 to 4 next year. I believe Aucoin is better defensively,but what about as a long term investment?

Will he be worth the $ in Detroit vs Schneids next year?

[sibiriak 84]

If Schneids is moved or not re-signed,should we consider aquiring Aucoin from the Blackhawks.I know he's getting 4 mil per year,but I'm sure Schneids will be asking for 3 to 4 next year. I believe Aucoin is better defensively,but what about as a long term investment?

Will he be worth the $ in Detroit vs Schneids next year?

You must not have seen the way Aucoin embarassed himself against the Wings yesterday. Bad timing for your trade idea.

[HenrikRules40 14]

You must not have seen the way Aucoin embarassed himself against the Wings yesterday. Bad timing for your trade idea.

Ah you beat me to it! Even Aucoin didn't want to be on his team yesterday. But he did get props from one guy! Zata said that his pass to him for the empty netter was better than Datsyuk's pass

[Mudvayneowns91 0]

While forward lines are generally put together based on skill level--the best players go on the first line, and so on--defensive pairing is not necessarily done the same way. If anything, I think the idea last year was to put our weakest defenseman with our strongest defenseman, hence Lilja and Lidstrom. If Kronwall is currently our weakest d-man--and I feel that he certainly merits this classification--then he should logically pair up with Lidstrom.

Should a case arise when our best defensemen must play together against an especially good line--I recall that Lidstrom was always on the ice against Hull in the playoffs in the old days--then that could be easily done.

Where do you see Cheli in those pairings?

Also, I'm not sure if we'd be interested but.... Montreal has been mentioned to be hearing offers on Souray. Awesome offensive stats, 20 goals/ 30 assists. Although, one thing that jumped out at me was that he's a - 15 player on the plus/minus. I don't know enough about his defense of game or how good Montreal is as a whole to make a judgement

Edited February 23, 2007 by Mudvayneowns91

[Guest Crymson]

Where do you see Cheli in those pairings?

Also, I'm not sure if we'd be interested but.... Montreal has been mentioned to be hearing offers on Souray. Awesome offensive stats, 20 goals/ 30 assists. Although, one thing that jumped out at me was that he's a - 15 player on the plus/minus. I don't know enough about his defense of game or how good Montreal is as a whole to make a judgement

We have been over this too many times to count. Souray is even further on the fringes than is Schneider--he is better offensively, and worse defensively. If you want somebody who will strengthen the defense, then Souray is NOT the answer. Worse, he'll command a premium price next season. Not worth it.

FYI, Schneider had those offensive stats last year. It can be anyone on any given year.

Edited February 23, 2007 by Crymson

[Hank 0]

I wonder if I saw the same game as you did. I thought that the Datsyuk's SH breakaway goal was the turning point, and the GW was scored by Zetterberg from a very nice pass from Datsyuk. And Datsyuk was named the 1st star very deservedly.

Pavel may or may not score a lot in the next playoffs, but this Wednesdey's game was not a good example of him sucking and Zetterberg having to carry the team.

Big surprise. Datsyuk's dad is back to defend his son again.

You're right though, Datsyuk did have a great SH goal to break it open.

But you're fooling yourself if you think Datsyuk is an effective player if they take Zetterberg away from him. And that was my whole point. Neutralise Zetterberg (which is exactly what every team will do) and Detroit's offense drys up. Not one other person on this team can score goals like Zetterberg or produce offense on their own like him. I know that he started off poorly like everyone else when he didn't have Dats on his line, but even then his goal totals were almost the same as last year. Only his assists were off. Datsyuk on the other hand was on pace for 12 goals and 50 points. He's proven time and time again that he is an ineffective offensive weapen when he has nobody to pass to. And that's because he's a one dimensional offensive threat.

Again, for the wings to be effective in the playoffs they need a scoring winger for Lang. Because teams will shadow Zetts, which means they take away two players when they do so, so we'll need Lang and his winger to provide the offense when this happens.

I'm also one of the few that seems to like Schneider. I think his defense is underated and he makes great 1st passes out of the zone.

And Chelios is no longer really a physical dman. At his age he can't be like he was when with Montreal and Chicago. But he's still very sound in his own end. I just hope they don't do that weak dman paired with a strong dman crap. It's the reason we lost last year. All the teams knew that if you forechecked the good dman he would be forced to pass to the weak dman (eg. Lidstrom to Leijla). Leijla coughed up the puck time and time again. I hope he doesn't see any ice time in the playoffs. Same with JW.

Edited February 23, 2007 by Hank

[bringback91 2]

Big surprise. Datsyuk's dad is back to defend his son again.

You're right though, Datsyuk did have a great SH goal to break it open.

But you're fooling yourself if you think Datsyuk is an effective player if they take Zetterberg away from him. And that was my whole point. Neutralise Zetterberg (which is exactly what every team will do) and Detroit's offense drys up. Not one other person on this team can score goals like Zetterberg or produce offense on their own like him. I know that he started off poorly like everyone else when he didn't have Dats on his line, but even then his goal totals were almost the same as last year. Only his assists were off. Datsyuk on the other hand was on pace for 12 goals and 50 points. He's proven time and time again that he is an uneffective offensive weapen when he has nobody to pass to. And that's because he's a one dimensional offensive threat.

Again, for the wings to be effective in the playoffs they need a scoring winger for Lang. Because teams will shadow Zetts, which means they take away two players when they do so, so we'll need Lang and his winger to provide the offense when this happens.

Big surprise your head is so far up Z's ass you can't pull it out to notice anyone else on the team. Your dislike of Dats is well documented, so give it a freaking rest already. You dont have to put it in every post in every thread.

[Hank 0]

Big surprise your head is so far up Z's ass you can't pull it out to notice anyone else on the team. Your dislike of Dats is well documented, so give it a freaking rest already. You dont have to put it in every post in every thread.

Yes I can. It's a free board.

And tell me where I'm wrong? Z's not even close to being my favourite wing but I have the brains to see the makeup of this team.

Tell me how this team would do if you took Z out of the equation.

[bringback91 2]

Yes I can. It's a free board.

And tell me where I'm wrong? Z's not even close to being my favourite wing but I have the brains to see the makeup of this team.

Tell me how this team would do if you took Z out of the equation.

Oh, I know you can, that's why I said you don't have to. WE ALL ALREADY KNOW. Your whole "holier than thou" attitiude about Z is wrong. Read his own personal quotes and see whom he gives credit too. The team would look s***ty without Z, s***ty without pavel too, as witnessed with the few games he was out earlier. Tell me this, if Dats is so replaceable and not needed, than why is he the overwhelming favorite for playoff whipping boy. If Z's not your favorite player, I'd hate to see how are about your actual "favorite".

[Hank 0]

Oh, I know you can, that's why I said you don't have to. WE ALL ALREADY KNOW. Your whole "holier than thou" attitiude about Z is wrong. Read his own personal quotes and see whom he gives credit too. The team would look s***ty without Z, s***ty without pavel too, as witnessed with the few games he was out earlier. Tell me this, if Dats is so replaceable and not needed, than why is he the overwhelming favorite for playoff whipping boy. If Z's not your favorite player, I'd hate to see how are about your actual "favorite".

First off, which NHL player ever gives credit to himself? Crosby's the best offensive player in the league and he heeps praise on everyone but himself. So I guess that means he's not the best player on his team eh?

Secondly, Pavels the teams favourite playoff whipping boy because he hasn't scored a playoff goal in 26 straight games. There's no science behind it. Chevaldae used to be the fans playoff whipping boy years back. Why was that? It certainly wasn't because he was irreplaceable. It's because he sucked in the playoffs. Simple as that. Stop reading into things.

It's obvious Datsyuk's your favourite player and like many others you're willing to make up one excuse after another for his playoff failings. Again, there is no science to it. There's no conspiracy or bad luck involved. The guy simply doesn't have the 'stuff' for postseason hockey and he never will.

[bringback91 2]

First off, which NHL player ever gives credit to himself? Crosby's the best offensive player in the league and he heeps praise on everyone but himself. So I guess that means he's not the best player on his team eh?

Secondly, Pavels the teams favourite playoff whipping boy because he hasn't scored a playoff goal in 26 straight games. There's no science behind it. Chevaldae used to be the fans playoff whipping boy years back. Why was that? It certainly wasn't because he was irreplaceable. It's because he sucked in the playoffs. Simple as that. Stop reading into things.

It's obvious Datsyuk's your favourite player and like many others you're willing to make up one excuse after another for his playoff failings. Again, there is no science to it. There's no conspiracy or bad luck involved. The guy simply doesn't have the 'stuff' for postseason hockey and he never will.

Well, if you think these guys think that they can actually get it done all by themselves and really don't owe any credit to there linemates, but only do to be p.c., then you know even less than I thought you did.

So than back to why? If he's veiwed as a non essential part to Red Wing success, than what does it matter if he even skates? They don't need him they got Z, right? Your one man show theory shoots itself right in the ass, due to the fact Z had a great series, and they still lost. Stop reading into things? Sorry I don't just jump on every bandwagon that rolls on by, I like to educate myself on the topic at hand and draw my own conclusions. Without spitting out the same jibber jabber.

Nope, actually Sergei is my "favorite" player and there's some others up there too. When did I "make up" an excuse for anything? Now who's reading into things? That's great Scouty Mcgee, but I'll leave the visions of players future success to the pros. No offense or anything.

[Hank 0]

Well, if you think these guys think that they can actually get it done all by themselves and really don't owe any credit to there linemates, but only do to be p.c., then you know even less than I thought you did.

So than back to why? If he's veiwed as a non essential part to Red Wing success, than what does it matter if he even skates? They don't need him they got Z, right? Your one man show theory shoots itself right in the ass, due to the fact Z had a great series, and they still lost. Stop reading into things? Sorry I don't just jump on every bandwagon that rolls on by, I like to educate myself on the topic at hand and draw my own conclusions. Without spitting out the same jibber jabber.

Nope, actually Sergei is my "favorite" player and there's some others up there too. When did I "make up" an excuse for anything? Now who's reading into things? That's great Scouty Mcgee, but I'll leave the visions of players future success to the pros. No offense or anything.

Where did I ever say that one man can do it alone? In fact, my whole original post was about how we needed more offensive depth to take the heat off the top line. Of course no man can do it alone. But some players have shown to do way more with way less. Steve Yzerman made Gerard Gallant a 40 goal scorer. And on many nights, Yzerman won games all by himself. Zetts will never be in that class but he has more intangibles to do that than Dats. Dats only passes and because of that he's dependant on his linemates to score goals. Z has more ability to create offense with nobody than Dats. That was simply my point.

And what 'jibber jabber'? All I've done is spout out the truth. Datsyuk is not a good playoff player and we can do it without him. In fact, we have to do it in spite of him. We all know he isn't going to do anything in the playoffs so they should have dealt him for someone that can. You're return argument will be "if that were true Holland would have dealt him" but that doesn't hold water. This is the same man that gave Leijla and Williams extentions. Holland has issues with letting core guys he inherited walk. He's scared.

If anything, you're the one that keeps spouting off jibber-jabber. I've supplied proof and opinions grounded in facts that backup my argument entirely. You keep coming back with hateful insults because your feelings seem to be hurt over a player you adore. You've yet to disprove anything that I've written on the subject and yet you still feel the need to retort with insults telling me I'm wrong with nothing more than doubletalk and swearing.

Again, I'll spell it out for you since it doesn't appear to be clear:

P.Datsyuk playoff stats - 42GP, 3G, 12A, 15Pts (.35 Points-per-game, .07 goals-per-game.)

Last playoff goal, May 31st, 2002. Nearly 5 calendar years ago.

That does all the talking needed for me.

The whole point to this thread is that Mark Spizzirri believes we need more defense to go deep in the playoffs. I argued that defense is not our problem since we're a one line team with two great offensive players - one of which turns into a lame duck when April rolls around. So obviously we need a true scoring winger for Lang to balance the attack.

Again, tell me where my assessment is wrong?

Am I the only one here that sees this obvious need? Or are there others here who feel that having 1 line is going to win us the Cup? Or are there others that really believe that Datsyuk is going to break out and be that playoff force he wants to be paid like?