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#21 betterREDthandead

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 12:24 PM

QUOTE(haroldsnepsts @ March 13, 2007 - 06:52AM) View Post

Because of his injuries, this is Kronwall's first full season with the team. Think about that. It seems like he's been around a while, but this is seriously the first time he's ever played more than 30 games at the NHL level in one season.

This is pretty much the reason I'm trying to bite my tongue on Kronwall. Even though he's been considered a regular since 2003, he's actually got 40 fewer games of NHL experience than a fellow by the name of Sidney P. Crosby. So I'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. But his penchant for being out of position is practically Lilja-esque at times, and when he has the puck, he just doesn't concentrate and it leads to silly giveaways.
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#22 Mors

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 12:29 PM

QUOTE(Heaton @ March 13, 2007 - 01:22PM) View Post

Schneider is dragging down Kronwall by being his partner, Lebda has a partner who is the best American player to play in the NHL ever.

I'm not sitting here and saying Kronwall has been fantastic this year, because he hasn't, but to say, after 1 year that Kronwall is not smart enough to play in the NHL? It's really hard to take you seriously.



How can anyone take you seriously? Schneider is dragging Kronwall down?

I think Scheider's defensive lapses are REALLY getting blown out of proportion at this point in all of these threads, but to place the blame for Kronwall's suck ass play as of late on Schneider is just ridiculous.

#23 eva unit zero

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 12:33 PM

QUOTE(Mors @ March 13, 2007 - 01:29PM) View Post


How can anyone take you seriously? Schneider is dragging Kronwall down?

I think Scheider's defensive lapses are REALLY getting blown out of proportion at this point in all of these threads, but to place the blame for Kronwall's suck ass play as of late on Schneider is just ridiculous.


Like the 'Cleary stopped scoring because Lang sucks' rather than 'Lang's back gave out having to carry Cleary for months' thing.

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#24 Heaton

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 12:35 PM

QUOTE(Mors @ March 13, 2007 - 01:29PM) View Post

How can anyone take you seriously? Schneider is dragging Kronwall down?

I think Scheider's defensive lapses are REALLY getting blown out of proportion at this point in all of these threads, but to place the blame for Kronwall's suck ass play as of late on Schneider is just ridiculous.


So Schneider's poor defensive play is blown out of proportion but Kronwall's isn't?

QUOTE(eva unit zero @ March 13, 2007 - 01:33PM) View Post

Like the 'Cleary stopped scoring because Lang sucks' rather than 'Lang's back gave out having to carry Cleary for months' thing.


Ignoring figure of speeches, the entire line died off, Lang was a big part of it.
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#25 Kp-Wings

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 12:42 PM

QUOTE(Heaton @ March 13, 2007 - 12:22PM) View Post

Lebda also has the luxury of playing against the opponents 3rd and 4th line more.

Look, I'm not going to convince you of anything, but the best indication of how good Kronwall can be is going back and looking at the games when Schneider was out. Schneider is dragging down Kronwall by being his partner, Lebda has a partner who is the best American player to play in the NHL ever.

I'm not sitting here and saying Kronwall has been fantastic this year, because he hasn't, but to say, after 1 year that Kronwall is not smart enough to play in the NHL? It's really hard to take you seriously.

When Kronwall first game up he was fantastic, when Kronwall came back from his injury last year he was playing very well, and into the playoffs he played VERY well. This is an off year, obviously, but his first year playing 20+ minutes every night. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

Kronwall has arguably been the worst defenseman on the team right now. Come on, you don't see his constant givaways and never staying in position? And this all supposed to be Schneiders fault? Wow, I thought I heard it all.

I have NEVER see Kronwall play fantastic. When has he ever played even mildly good?

OH WAIT HE HITS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

His hits, when he actually is able to line somebody up, are so few and far between that if this is his good quality then he really sucks. This year he had the big hit on Lupul. Last year it was on Jay McClemant of St. Louis. One huge hit a year doesn't make him a good defenseman. He has a few other ok hits from time to time, but that is really overshadowed by constant givaways and mental breakdowns.

And don't even think about throwing the cliche "Well he's always injured and this is first season" line because I don't want to here it. Jesse Wallin, when he still played here, was injured as much as Kronwall. Did we give him the amount of chances that we're giving Kronwall now? No. So what makes Kronwall any different? Tell me, what?

Kronwall is 26, and hasn't shown dick. How much more leverage do we give him?

#26 TimeBinder

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 12:58 PM

I would like to see kronner put with a different partner - put him with a more defensive minded partner, Markov, Cheli maybe that would help. Like it has been said bad turnovers REPEATEDLY, bad positioning etc. it has already been said. I will give him some time but not the pedestal. Move Lebda up - he has shown improvement. Why does he play so much better on the world stage than the NHL? Different pairing, ice surface ??? The AHL is the AHL - minor leagues- don't mean squat up here - just ask Calder. Why doesn't the coaching staff seem to do anything apparent or if they are it isn't working demote him light a fire.
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#27 Hank

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 01:47 PM

QUOTE(Zion @ March 13, 2007 - 08:01AM) View Post

Agreed, and he's still young and injury-prone... needs some more time.


Agreed. Generally, dmen take a lot longer to develop than forwards. Look at Rusy Klesla. Here's a former top pick who looked like he was a giant bust. But this year he really came on the scene and it looks like he could be one of the best defensemen in the leauge for the next decade. Even Pronger was horrible to begin with. Give Kronwall time.
You also have to take into consideration that Schneider has been eating a lot of PP time (where most points come for dmen). Next season #23 won't be around and you'll see Kroner take that next step.
I don't know if he'll be HOF material but I think it's realistic to think he can be a 50+ point defender who has the ability to change a game with a big hit and can move the puck out of his zone with the best of them.

#28 CloudConnected

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 01:54 PM

We haven't seen anything out of Kronwall because he doesn't have the opportunity to rush the puck when he's paired with Schneider. He's the guy who hangs back in the pair, and lets Schneider go up the ice and take chances. When Kronwall becomes our #2 powerplay guy and hooks up with a partner like Markov or maybe even Quincey next year, he'll be able to show what he can do.

That said, his play lately hasn't been great at all. He's been awful at times. But hanging the bust tag on him at this point is way too soon. He's oozes talent, he's just got to put it together.

#29 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 02:02 PM

QUOTE(Kp-Wings @ March 13, 2007 - 10:42AM) View Post

Kronwall has arguably been the worst defenseman on the team right now. Come on, you don't see his constant givaways and never staying in position? And this all supposed to be Schneiders fault? Wow, I thought I heard it all.

I have NEVER see Kronwall play fantastic. When has he ever played even mildly good?

OH WAIT HE HITS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

His hits, when he actually is able to line somebody up, are so few and far between that if this is his good quality then he really sucks. This year he had the big hit on Lupul. Last year it was on Jay McClemant of St. Louis. One huge hit a year doesn't make him a good defenseman. He has a few other ok hits from time to time, but that is really overshadowed by constant givaways and mental breakdowns.

And don't even think about throwing the cliche "Well he's always injured and this is first season" line because I don't want to here it. Jesse Wallin, when he still played here, was injured as much as Kronwall. Did we give him the amount of chances that we're giving Kronwall now? No. So what makes Kronwall any different? Tell me, what?

Kronwall is 26, and hasn't shown dick. How much more leverage do we give him?

If you haven't seen anything from Kronwall then maybe you haven't been watching.

As I said, his decision making isn't what it needs to be, but even aside from the hitting, at least once every game I've seen, he shows flashes of the talent that has the Red Wings so high on him.

Even in the loss to Boston, the Wings were able to run a set play and get a great scoring chance in spite of the Bruins playing the trap, because of Kronwall's mobility and passing from his own end.

This is his first full season on the Wings. (I don't understand why that's not a valid argument with you, considering it's the truth) I'm not ready to give up on him yet.

My major concern with Kronwall is all the freak injuries he's had already in his short career. If that continues, he may never be able to put it all together.

Edited by haroldsnepsts, 13 March 2007 - 02:02 PM.


#30 SoupGuru

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 02:02 PM

QUOTE(CloudConnected @ March 13, 2007 - 11:54AM) View Post

He's oozes talent...


What talent? What exactly are Kronwall's talents?

I'm sorry to single you out because this is really a question for all those people that come in here making general statements like that. "He's definitely a top 4 defenseman." "He's way better than XYZ." "He's got all sorts of talent." As if this talent is so glaringly obvious that we all see it too.

But I don't. Will someone please detail to me exactly what Kronwall's talents are?

#31 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 02:07 PM

QUOTE(SoupGuru @ March 13, 2007 - 12:02PM) View Post

What talent? What exactly are Kronwall's talents?

I'm sorry to single you out because this is really a question for all those people that come in here making general statements like that. "He's definitely a top 4 defenseman." "He's way better than XYZ." "He's got all sorts of talent." As if this talent is so glaringly obvious that we all see it too.

But I don't. Will someone please detail to me exactly what Kronwall's talents are?

I would say they are his mobility, puck movement, good offensive skills, and good hitting for such a small guy.

If I were to criticize Kronwall for anything, it would be trying to do too much--trying to make the big hit or the big play when he should be making the simple outlet pass or hanging back in coverage. He needs to pay more attention to how Lidstrom picks his spots.


#32 toby91_ca

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 02:15 PM

QUOTE(Hank @ March 13, 2007 - 01:47PM) View Post

Agreed. Generally, dmen take a lot longer to develop than forwards. Look at Rusy Klesla. Here's a former top pick who looked like he was a giant bust. But this year he really came on the scene and it looks like he could be one of the best defensemen in the leauge for the next decade. Even Pronger was horrible to begin with. Give Kronwall time.

Wait a minute though. If you are comparing his development to someone like Pronger (I know you are not making that direct comparison, but let's pretend), when Pronger was Kronwall's age, didn't he already have a Hart, Norris and 2 plus/minus awards under his belt?

There should come a point in time where he is no longer a young guy that we just need to give him time to see how he develops. I am not saying that is now, I know he has barely played a full season in the NHL (actually hasn't yet). To be honest, at 26 years old now, the fact that this is his first full season in the NHL is a bit of a concern to me.

I am definately not trying to knock him or write him off, but I am certainly not yet sold on him being a star in the future. He certainly is not worth his contract right now and obviously management is banking on the contract being a bargain in the long run, we'll have to wait and see how things go.

#33 sliverck

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 02:20 PM

There shouldn't be any excuses for the way Kronwall is playing. He is/was a very talented player and his numbers should be way better. In 2004 he played 20 games with the Wings and had 1 goal, 1 assist. In 2006 he played in 27 games and had 1 goal, 8 assists. And in 2007 so far he has played in 59 games and has 1 goal and 19 assists. I'm starting to see a pattern, and it's not looking good. Also I agree with the mask issue, he has had that thing on forever, take it off already. I have been way, way more impressed with Lebda this year than Kronwall.

#34 Heaton

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 02:35 PM

Kronwall has to keep the mask on until the doctors tell him to take it off.
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#35 Crymson

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 02:52 PM

QUOTE(GuloGulo @ March 13, 2007 - 06:28AM) View Post

I agree that the contract isn't justified by his play this season.
He's not playing 3M hockey.

But then, that's perhaps a reason contracts should be kept from the public in the future. A lot of whining about players is related to their compensation.
IF we didn't know Lang cost ~4M, would we rag so much about him? If we didn't know Chelios was making league minimum, would we have as much patience?

This isn't a huge deal with the current Red Wings, but reading other fan boards really makes you think... think about Theodore for instance. If nobody knew his contract, would anybody really care about him losing his starting job?

A tad OT, I know.


Kronwall does not, currently, make $3m per year.

#36 GuloGulo

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 02:57 PM

QUOTE(Crymson @ March 13, 2007 - 08:52PM) View Post

Kronwall does not, currently, make $3m per year.


True. I intentionally neglected that fact, because his _future_ contract numbers seems to be a point of concern to a lot of posters.


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#37 Kp-Wings

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 03:14 PM

QUOTE(haroldsnepsts @ March 13, 2007 - 02:02PM) View Post

This is his first full season on the Wings. (I don't understand why that's not a valid argument with you, considering it's the truth) I'm not ready to give up on him yet.

Why should it be a valid argument? Again, I go back to Wallin as an example. He had injury problems, and wasn't very good in his first season here. So why did we not cut any slack for him but we do for Kronwall?

Granted, Wallin only played 32 games, but it's still the same situation. Why cut Kronwall slack? Because of what he did in the AHL and in international tournaments? Those are different leagues all together.

I also want to say this: somebody needs to do something about Kronwalls horrendous play, especially over the last few games. I suggest benching him. He deserves it.

#38 GuloGulo

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 03:18 PM

QUOTE(Kp-Wings @ March 13, 2007 - 09:14PM) View Post

I also want to say this: somebody needs to do something about Kronwalls horrendous play, especially over the last few games. I suggest benching him. He deserves it.


That is one approach.
The other approach is to hope he can play himself out of the funk.

Nobody here's saying he cannot be benched. Anyone can be benched. Call Babs and have him do it.
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#39 Kp-Wings

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 03:22 PM

QUOTE(GuloGulo @ March 13, 2007 - 03:18PM) View Post

Nobody here's saying he cannot be benched. Anyone can be benched. Call Babs and have him do it.

You have his number?

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#40 sliverck

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 03:27 PM

He's had 59 games to play himself out of this funk. According to his previous statistics he should have at least 2 goals by now. He is just not performing to his talent level. Or at least to his perceived talent level. I would still rather have him in the lineup than Lilja. I think his full cage is going to turn into a Maltby thing. Remember he had to wear the visor because of his eye injury. That was like a decade ago.





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