Martin Brodeur Vs. Patrick Roy

[wingslogo19 281]

No I am not.

I really gotta run so I'll just say it quickly.

Hasek: 6 Vezinas in 8 years Roy: Roy 3 in 18

Hasek: 2 Hart trophies (in a row) Roy: 0

Hasek: 2 Pearson Trophies (in a row) Roy: 0

Hasek lead the league in save % for 6 straight years and was tied for first once and was 2nd last year at age 41.

Hasek holds the top 5 saving %-s of the WHOLE decade. (all with 0.930 and over which by the way other then Hasek has only been done 3 times)

Roy's career season in save % (0.925) is only 0.001 higher then Hasek's career AVERAGE!

Dont start talking about cups because that is a team accomplishment and so is wins.

Flush away the 12 SO by marty

Edited March 16, 2007 by wingslogo19

[kovatsyuk 0]

Flush away the 12 SO by marty

Hasek had one year where he had 13 SO. But SO dont mean jack since its also reflective of a team.

If you face 15 shots you have much more chance of stopping all of em then if you face 40 shots.

[WhiteLightning91 105]

Hasek had one year where he had 13 SO. But SO dont mean jack since its also reflective of a team.

If you face 15 shots you have much more chance of stopping all of em then if you face 40 shots.

Brodeur is on pace to face the most shots he has in his career this season and is still going to break the record for SO's.

Explain that one...

[kovatsyuk 0]

Brodeur is on pace to face the most shots he has in his career this season and is still going to break the record for SO's.

Explain that one...

Only because Broduer is on pace to playing like 80 games this year lol.

He still faces like 26 shots per game.

I remember a time where Hasek used to face 34-35 shots per game.

[Vincanni 1]

A couple of points to argue for both being some of the best goaltenders ever. Patrick Roy while likely to have most of his records and numbers smashed by Brodeur is a playoff god. Shrugging aside his last playoff game his playoff accolades are tops in the NHL. 3 conn smythes is an amazing feat.

Brodeur meanwhile has done something Roy will never be bale to do and that's succeed in post-lockout NHL with pad size restrictions. Look at what it did to Jose Theodore's numbers, just to name one example. Also Brodeur is having arguably his best season this year with a less than impressive team, so it's unfair to soley base his stats on the teams he played for, and it's not like Roy ever had a really bad team i front of him that he entirely carried the way Marty's doing this year.

So ultimately I don't think one can pick a definite winner between the two and until Brodeur retires I'm not even going to bother. Not sure how many typoes are ladent through out this post but I'm dead tired, about ready to go to bed and not going to bother checking

[Guest pornstar]

I attribute Brodeur's success ENTIRELY to New Jersey's defensive system.

you can say that any goalie that has played for detroit.

[Anomalously 0]

Nobody pointed this out: why did Brodeur's GAA go up ever-so-slightly when he was put "on pace" for Roy's number of games? Shouldn't it stay the same?

[stevie for president 42]

Sorry if this has been said, i havent read all the posts, but..

Patrick Roy won the conn smyth trophy 3 times out of 4. the only year he didnt win it, Sakic was a mad man and scored 34 points in 22 playoff games. I judge goalies in 2 categories, Wins in general, and Wins in big games. Brodeur will retire with more wins than patrick roy could ever dream of having barring any injuries, but Patrick Roy 2 more stanely cups, 3 more conn smyths, and about 60 more playoff wins. I'd have to give that nod to Roy, as hard as it is to do such a thing.

[T-Ruff 47]

Brodeur is hands down greater than Roy, partly due to the fact that he is going to break the shutouts and wins record....possible by a lot.....

As far as Hasek vs Roy/Brodeur.... the argument becomes more or less a contrast of opinion because of their difference in style and team skill.... my opinion would be Hasek, but I'm sure Brodeur will change that by the time his prestigious career comes to a close....

[redwinger4747 6]

I'm watching the New Jersey vs. Carolina game tonight and am still amazed everytime I watch Brodeur play. The guy is phenomenal.

Since you can't really compare people from different era's, I thought it would make sense just to take the best two goalies from this era.

Brodeur's Stats:

Games Played - 879

Wins - 487

Losses - 258

Ties - 119

GAA - 2.20

SV % - 0.913

Shut Outs - 92

Roy's Stats:

Games Played - 1029

Wins - 551

Losses - 315

Ties - 131

GAA - 2.54

SV % - 0.910

Shut Outs - 66

Brodeur's Stats Adjusted To Amount of Games Roy Has Played::

Games Played - 1029

Wins - 570

Losses - 369

Ties - 119

GAA - 2.22

SV % - .913

Shut Outs - 108

All Avalanche bashing aside, Brodeur to me is better. I didn't like playing Roy, but he never scared me the way Brodeur does. Brodeur is just a complete beast when it comes to playing goal. He is always ready to go, never quits, bounces back from a bad goal/game better than any goalie I've ever seen, and has pcuk handling skills that can be matched by no one.

Your thoughts?

Either you need to check your math or your not including OT losses or something because none of the stats add up to the correct number of games played.

For Broduer:

487 (wins) + 258 (losses) + 119 (ties) = 864 games played, not 879

For Roy:

551 (wins) + 315 (losses) + 131 (ties) = 997 games played, not 1029

For Broduer's adjusted:

570 (wins) + 369 (losses) + 119 (ties) = 1058 games played, not 1029

something is wrong

[WhiteLightning91 105]

Either you need to check your math or your not including OT losses or something because none of the stats add up to the correct number of games played.

For Broduer:

487 (wins) + 258 (losses) + 119 (ties) = 864 games played, not 879

For Roy:

551 (wins) + 315 (losses) + 131 (ties) = 997 games played, not 1029

For Broduer's adjusted:

570 (wins) + 369 (losses) + 119 (ties) = 1058 games played, not 1029

something is wrong

I'm sure at some point both of the goalies were pulled in a game, were on the scoresheet for each stat, but the win/loss/tie was given to the goaltender in relief for them...that's all I can think of.

If that's not it, you're gonna have to take that up with TSN.ca

That's where I got those statistics from.

Edited March 16, 2007 by WhiteLightning91

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

In a Brodeur vs Roy discussion, the quality of teams is not a factor as both played almost exclusively for great teams their whole careers.

You'd think that would be the case, but take a gander at the two posts right above yours.

[shadow47 1]

Roy was better than Brodeur in my book...I would take Dom over either, we're talking when these guys were in the midst of their careers obviously, since Roy is retired and DH is 41. Brodeur definitely padded his stats with the Devils clamping style of the 90s and early 2000s. That's a fact. Whether he is a superb Vezina worthy keeper this season is not the question, since people are basing their assertions on career numbers. Brodeur is having a season that statistically is similar to either of Hasek's Hart seasons in 97 or 98 or even 99 which was his best year which he ONLY won the Vezina, so he is surely doing well, but it hasn't always been this way...this is one of the few years he has been near the top in sp% b/c it is so hard to keep it high when you face so few shots as he did during most seasons in Jersey. Just look at Hasek this year; he'd have a much better save percentage if he was seeing more shots...an extra 8-10 shots a night aren't going to change his GAA much, and will increase the SP in a dramatic way. So, the door swings both ways on that, save percentage is not a waterproof barometer either.

That said, it's also not really possible to rank players' greatness...what's better is a group of players that are all clearly very close in skill and results. Obviously, the top five keepers in the last twenty years are going to be, in alphabetical order:

Belfour

Brodeur

Hasek

Richter

Roy

Richter is arguable, but based on skill and toughness, I would have him top 5. This is the only honest way to do it since wins and GAA and save percentage or shutouts are not pure goaltender stats...all are affected hugely by the entire team and system, so in the end, they should not be used to determine if Brodeur is better than Roy or whoever. You're also going to see most people ranking modern goaltenders ahead of retired and forgotten keepers...even Roy's memory is fading in the minds of the average fan when all they hear is Brodeur-Brodeur-Brodeur. And you have old-as-all-hell Hasek leading the league in GAA for most of the season, and people still say "he was never THAT good" because they forget he was 34 once, too (and winning the Hart that season). We'll see what numbers the Marty is putting up then--let's restart this discussion in 8 years.

[Hiei 192]

I'd pick Brodeur. Yea, Roy played for equally excellent teams, but I want any of you to tell me when Roy's worst year was, defensive scheme wise. I doubt it was as bad as what Jersey's #30 is going through this year.

And about Hasek, Woulda, Coulda Shoulda. If he would have been picked up by Detroit and not Chicago, think of how far in on Roy and Brodeur he'd be...even though he's 41 now and Brodeur's 34 now.

My pick is this: Brodeur, barring major injuries will surpass Roy. He could probably eclipse the 700-win mark. And if you put him in Columbus or St Louis, they'd probably be edging into the postseason. Roy, when he hasn't a decent defensive scheme in front of him, tended to play poorly more often than not, and would have a meltdown. Reference 1997 Brawl Night and Playoffs, 2002 Games 6 and 7, among others.

[shadow47 1]

Career Games/Record:

Hasek..................(668 actual min.) 687 (359-211-4-T?) .523 Win %

Brodeur...............(866 actual min.) 880 (487-259-7-T?) .553 Win %

GAA:

Hasek..................2.21

Brodeur...............2.20

Save Percentage:

Hasek..................923

Brodeur...............913

Career Shutouts:

Hasek..................74.................1 shutout every 9.03 games

Brodeur...............92.................1 shutout every 9.41 games

Career Shots Against Per Game:

Hasek..............................................28.7 per game

Brodeur...........................................25.3 per game

These are regular season numbers for those interested, trophies are excluded since they are not a physical statistic. It's interesting to see how similar the numbers are for these two all-NHL keepers, even in winning percentage and shutouts per game where one can conjecture that if the Dom had played more games in the NHL, he would be comparable in career numbers since the pace is the same or better.

edit: Hiei you are crazed. BTW Roy's worst defensive year was probably '96 while on Montreal, if you know what I mean . Oh yeah, the same year Brodeur led NJ to no playoffs on a whiffed goal against lowly Ottawa. Hmmm, also Hasek's only non-playoff year in his career.

Edited March 16, 2007 by shadow47

[cjeder 0]

Greatest Skills: Hasek

Hasek's ability to play in net is super-human, and while you can't call him the best ever to play, he does derserve props for his incredible skills.

Best competitor: Roy

Roy's while being an incredible goaltender, set himself apart by his abiltiy to win important games by sheer will. When the games mattered, Roy always showed up.

Greatest Keeper: Brodeur

There really is no question on this one. Tthere is more to goaltending than just skills and copetitive nature. While not as flashy as Hasek or clutch as Roy, Brodeur offers his team a great chance to win on a nightly basis. He plays nearly every game for his team, producing five 40 win seasons to Roy's 1. For the past two years, Broduer has essentially carried the devils to the playoffs (lets not forget last years 11 game winning streak to cap the season) As for the playoffs, its not like he's Marty Turco. In 9 playoffs as a starter he has two rings, which compares favorably to Roy's 4 cups in 16 playoffs.

[shadow47 1]

Greatest Skills: Hasek

Hasek you can't call him the best ever to play, he

Greatest Keeper: Brodeur

There really is no question on this one.

These are two false statements disguised as fact.

[shadow47 1]

Broduer has essentially carried the devils to the playoffs (lets not forget last years 11 game winning streak to cap the season) As for the playoffs, its not like he's Marty Turco. In 9 playoffs as a starter he has two rings, which compares favorably to Roy's 4 cups in 16 playoffs.

Just in case the NHL noobs think that "Marty" wins the Cup every season, here's proof that Brodeur's put up some so-so/lousy playoff runs to go along with some winning teams:

94...Matteau, Matteau! This was Brodeur's best playoff season IMO

95...They were good enough in '94, the Devils give up 17,18,16,17,23,24,16 shots against in their last 7 games of the playoffs.

96...took the Devils to... ...no playoffs. Beaten 5-2 by lowly Ottawa in a do or die game to miss.

97...lost in the second round to the Rangers on a Graves' wraparound Matteau Part Deux. Gave up 8 goals in the 5 games and lost 4. He was good but not good enough, apparently...reminds me of Dom in '94.

98...Devils lose in 6 to the Senators in Round 1.

99...Devils lose in Game 7 of Round 1 to Pittsburgh. Brodeur gives up 4 goals on 13 shots in Game 7. In Jersey's 4 losses, Brodeur's save percentage total is a horrible .783. Oops.

00...Jersey wins the Cup over Dallas. In the three regulation games of the Finals, Dallas manages 17, 23, and 17 shots on Brodeur. Dallas records a mere 31 in a double overtime game.

01...Jersey loses to Colorado in the Finals, as Colorado nets a 5-0 win in Game 1. In Game 6 and 7 as NJ blows the 3-2 series edge, Brodeur's save percentage is .825. NJ allows 30, 20, 21, 12, 23, 18, and 22 shots against in the Finals, the only time in the playoffs they allowed over twenty shots four times in a series in which all the games were decided in regulation.

02...Brodeur gives up 9 goals in 6 games to Carolina, NJ loses 4-2 in Round 1 to Carolina.

03...Brodeur smashes Hasek's playoff shutout record, blanking the Ducks 3-0 for his seventh of the season and the Cup. Three of the seven shutouts featured shots totals of 16, 16, and 15. This is arguably Brodeur's best campaign.

04...The Devils lose in 5 games in Round 1 to Philadelphia. Robert Esche outduels Brodeur, winning 4 of 5 from him. In one of the five games did Philadelphia record more than 26 shots.

05...Eh...........

06...Lose in five in Round 2 to Carolina, including a 6-0 massacre in Game 1.

Pretty average when he doesn't have a championship team in the stable...Devs better hope they don't have to play the Canes this year, even though they've beaten them three times already.

Edited March 16, 2007 by shadow47

[unkempt 0]

Hasek, when at his best, was the best of all his contemporaries, remember Nagano and Gretzky's frustration.

and by the way, this year, at 42, Hasek is carrying the lowly Detroit to the Presidents trophy!

[SweWings 45]

Hasek's overall stats will always be skewed as he didn't actually play his first full season in the NHL till he was what, 26?

[Guest LivingtheDream]

One thing Brodeur would certainly lead in is "Goals let in that were my fault." Why according to Roy every goal on him was a "lucky shot."

[eva unit zero 271]

No I am not.

I really gotta run so I'll just say it quickly.

Hasek: 6 Vezinas in 8 years Roy: Roy 3 in 18

Hasek: 2 Hart trophies (in a row) Roy: 0

Hasek: 2 Pearson Trophies (in a row) Roy: 0

Hasek lead the league in save % for 6 straight years and was tied for first once and was 2nd last year at age 41.

Hasek holds the top 5 saving %-s of the WHOLE decade. (all with 0.930 and over which by the way other then Hasek has only been done 3 times)

Roy's career season in save % (0.925) is only 0.001 higher then Hasek's career AVERAGE!

Dont start talking about cups because that is a team accomplishment and so is wins.

Hasek's save percentage is inflated from the style Buffalo played. Buffalo, during Hasek's time, played a defensive style that was designed to limit quality chaces by forcing perimeter shots rather than attempting to prevent all shots like most teams had done to that point. While it's true Hasek had to stop a lot of shots, most of them were long and unscreened shots. Only once on a 'traditional' style defense has Hasek posted a sv pct. above .915, something Roy has done six times and Brodeur four.

And even discounting Buffalo's interesting defense, it's an example that has been seen many times over the years; the goalies with the higher save percentages are also often the ones who see more shots. If Goalie A sees 24 shots per game, and Goalie B sees 30, but only one of the additional six is a quality scoring chance, Goalie B will likely have a better save percentage.

The only way to truly judge who is better is to put them on the ice behind the same defense against the same competition. Barring that, two comparable defenses work. Beyond that, you must consider the differences in the defenses in front of the goalie and how it affects his numbers.

Hasek, when at his best, was the best of all his contemporaries, remember Nagano and Gretzky's frustration.

Canada could have won in that shootout if they had iced Yzerman and Fleury instead of Gretzky and Bourque during it.

and by the way, this year, at 42, Hasek is carrying the lowly Detroit to the Presidents trophy!

Hasek is carrying the Wings in much the same way that Holmstrom or Lang are. I'll leave that to you to interpret.

[TheLegend19 1]

Roy is easily the most overrated goalie of modern times.

How do you figure? I think his resume speaks for itself.

[Wings_Dynasty 267]

Hasek's save percentage is inflated from the style Buffalo played. Buffalo, during Hasek's time, played a defensive style that was designed to limit quality chaces by forcing perimeter shots rather than attempting to prevent all shots like most teams had done to that point. While it's true Hasek had to stop a lot of shots, most of them were long and unscreened shots. Only once on a 'traditional' style defense has Hasek posted a sv pct. above .915, something Roy has done six times and Brodeur four.

And even discounting Buffalo's interesting defense, it's an example that has been seen many times over the years; the goalies with the higher save percentages are also often the ones who see more shots. If Goalie A sees 24 shots per game, and Goalie B sees 30, but only one of the additional six is a quality scoring chance, Goalie B will likely have a better save percentage.

The only way to truly judge who is better is to put them on the ice behind the same defense against the same competition. Barring that, two comparable defenses work. Beyond that, you must consider the differences in the defenses in front of the goalie and how it affects his numbers.

This also is not necessarily true. The same team plays in front of both Hasek and Osgood, yet Osgood , on average, faces more shots per game than Dom. The way they will be remembered 100 years from now is goaltending trophies, outstanding play trophies, and Stanley Cups. So let me ask you this:

Who is the better goaltender: Patrick Roy, Jacques Plante, or Terry Sawchuk?\

There is no correct answer, only opinions; like the rest of the posts in this thread.

[puckloo39 5,686]

Canada could have won in that shootout if they had iced Yzerman and Fleury instead of Gretzky and Bourque during it.

Hasek is carrying the Wings in much the same way that Holmstrom or Lang are. I'll leave that to you to interpret.

Gretzky was on the bench during the Olympic shootout, crying (as usual). Fleury was actually the first shooter, then Bourque, Nieuwendyk, Lindros, and Shanny, in order, all were shut down. Hasek was brilliant in that tourney, posting a 0.98 GAA. Reichel scored for the CZs on the first shot. Another coat of red paint on the post and that one wouldn't have gotten by Roy, BTW. He was also incredible in that Olympics.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/olympics/.../kelley_column/

sidenote: I love that Kelley called Shanny, "Mike" Shanahan in this piece. Hassock, anyone?

I think the poster said that Hasek was carrying the Wings as a joke. Hedid carry the Sabres a great deal of the time. Ask any Buffalo fan, if you don't think so.

Anyway, as far as Marty Brodeur being overrated, he isn't. Neither is Roy. Neither is Hasek, since you can't really compare him to anyone else. Hockey isn't just numbers, at least in my opinion.

Edited March 16, 2007 by puckloo39