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Smyth or Bertuzzi?


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#1 BringHomeTheCup!

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 03:30 PM

We all are very familiar with Ryan Smyth. We have seen the heart, passion, and drive he plays with. He is an UFA as of July 1st.

We are also familiar with Todd Bertuzzi. We know that he can score, he is a big body, he has great hands, and isn't afraid to drop the gloves.

I was doing some reading about theses two guys. I got to thinking, who would be a better fit for our team. It's a tough call. I know a lot of you don't think much of Bert, in large part because of he playoff preformace this year. But give the guy a break, he only played a handful of games this year. Next year he will be better. Ryan Smyth isn't anything flashy. He is basicly a smaller Homer who can skate better, and has a much better shot.

Between the two, I think I would take Smyth. Nothing against Bert, but with what the Wings would have to give up to sign him, I just can't say that I think he is worth it. I don't know what it would take to sign Smyth. No doubt it would be something close to what we signed Pav for. I don't know if that is really feasable. I know it is possible. If the Wings were to let Lang and Bert walk, it's very possible. Or even if they could get Bobby to re-up for around $2 per.

I think the biggest disadvantage with Bertuzzi is also his biggest advantage, you just don't know what you are getting. Are you going to get the Bert who isn't putting up much in these playoffs? Or you going to get the pre-Moore Bert who was as dominate as any power forward? I believe that Bert will be well within the Wings price range, but again, to give up more picks to sign him, I'm just not so sure that is a good idea.


Here is what the Wings have committed for next years roster, with a total of $29.3 commited salary.
Lidstrom - $7.6
Datsyuk - $6.7
Zetterburg - $2.7
Draper - $2.128
Holmstrom - $2.250
Samuelson - $1.2
Kronwall - $1.5
Lilja - $1
Franzen - $.900
Filppula - $.850
Osgood - $.800
Cleary - $.675
Lebda - $.550

That's 4 D, 8 F, and 1 G. Realisticly, we need to sign 2 D, 4 F, and at least 1 G. Odd are Cheli and Dom will be re-signed. Assuming both of those guys take similar contracts to what they had this year, that would eat about another $2. If the cap goes up to the sugested $49, I would think Kenny would want to spend about $45. We would have $14 to spend on 1 D and 4 F. It wouldn't be a stretch to get someone like Smyth. Even though Hank will be a UFA in 09-10, one would have to believe the cap would increase enough for the Wings to sign him. Even if the cap stayed stats quo, we have guys in the minors that could fill in gaps for affordable prices. IMO the only real question is Nick, and what he will be looking for after next season. I would much rather lock up Nick than sign a high priced UFA.

Thoughts?

EDIT: I got my salary info HERE it's only salary, no bonus hits included. It's under Player saleries by year. It's a pretty neat site, has a lot of nice info.

Edited by BringHomeTheCup!, 09 May 2007 - 03:34 PM.


#2 Henkka

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 03:34 PM

Definitely Smyth. He has some speed with that grit.

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#3 Zion

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 03:35 PM

I hate Ryan Smyth.

Never.
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#4 BringHomeTheCup!

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 03:37 PM

QUOTE(Zion @ May 9, 2007 - 04:35PM) View Post

I hate Ryan Smyth.

Never.

Why do you hate him? He is a class act, no one plays harder or with more passion. He is the type of player we need. Maybe not at that price tag...

#5 barnettkid14

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 03:37 PM

You have your totals wrong - http://www.redwingsc...s/orgchart.html <-- Kronner is getting $3,000,000 next season, not 1.5 smile.gif

#6 Wing Nut

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 03:42 PM

I think we should give Bert a shot next year. He is starting to go to the net more and he is hitting more. Give him an entire season, I think he could be a great addition to our wings. We don't need Smyth we need D-men. If we can't lock up Schneid's we need to get a good replacement.

#7 GordieSid&Ted

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 03:49 PM

QUOTE(BringHomeTheCup! @ May 9, 2007 - 04:30PM) View Post

We all are very familiar with Ryan Smyth. We have seen the heart, passion, and drive he plays with. He is an UFA as of July 1st.

We are also familiar with Todd Bertuzzi. We know that he can score, he is a big body, he has great hands, and isn't afraid to drop the gloves.

I was doing some reading about theses two guys. I got to thinking, who would be a better fit for our team. It's a tough call. I know a lot of you don't think much of Bert, in large part because of he playoff preformace this year. But give the guy a break, he only played a handful of games this year. Next year he will be better. Ryan Smyth isn't anything flashy. He is basicly a smaller Homer who can skate better, and has a much better shot.

Between the two, I think I would take Smyth. Nothing against Bert, but with what the Wings would have to give up to sign him, I just can't say that I think he is worth it. I don't know what it would take to sign Smyth. No doubt it would be something close to what we signed Pav for. I don't know if that is really feasable. I know it is possible. If the Wings were to let Lang and Bert walk, it's very possible. Or even if they could get Bobby to re-up for around $2 per.

I think the biggest disadvantage with Bertuzzi is also his biggest advantage, you just don't know what you are getting. Are you going to get the Bert who isn't putting up much in these playoffs? Or you going to get the pre-Moore Bert who was as dominate as any power forward? I believe that Bert will be well within the Wings price range, but again, to give up more picks to sign him, I'm just not so sure that is a good idea.
Here is what the Wings have committed for next years roster, with a total of $29.3 commited salary.
Lidstrom - $7.6
Datsyuk - $6.7
Zetterburg - $2.7
Draper - $2.128
Holmstrom - $2.250
Samuelson - $1.2
Kronwall - $1.5
Lilja - $1
Franzen - $.900
Filppula - $.850
Osgood - $.800
Cleary - $.675
Lebda - $.550

That's 4 D, 8 F, and 1 G. Realisticly, we need to sign 2 D, 4 F, and at least 1 G. Odd are Cheli and Dom will be re-signed. Assuming both of those guys take similar contracts to what they had this year, that would eat about another $2. If the cap goes up to the sugested $49, I would think Kenny would want to spend about $45. We would have $14 to spend on 1 D and 4 F. It wouldn't be a stretch to get someone like Smyth. Even though Hank will be a UFA in 09-10, one would have to believe the cap would increase enough for the Wings to sign him. Even if the cap stayed stats quo, we have guys in the minors that could fill in gaps for affordable prices. IMO the only real question is Nick, and what he will be looking for after next season. I would much rather lock up Nick than sign a high priced UFA.

Thoughts?

EDIT: I got my salary info HERE it's only salary, no bonus hits included. It's under Player saleries by year. It's a pretty neat site, has a lot of nice info.



Personally, I'm going with Bertuzzi. Maybe its just me but when he was in all the Flames faces and threw Dion Phaneuf down like a rag doll I thought, this is exactly the kind of guy we need. Plus, you can't take the puck from him cause he's too big and strong. IMO, this was an injury year for him and he's just not there yet. Given that fact, how much could he possibly command on the market? He's not going to get near Ryan Smyth money and I like the idea of signing him to a fair contract and seeing if he can regain his form.

You have to figure that at least Filpulla, Kopecky and Markov will likely be re signed, giving you 10 forwards and 5 dmen.

That leaves the unknowns: Here's the likelihood I think each will return

Bertuzzi-75%
Calder-80%
Lang-30%
Hasek-??? who the heck knows with Dom
Schneider-75%
Chelios-75%

I think Schneider will make approximately the same type of money, maybe 3 mil even. Chely will be about the same as well so you'll have 7 dmen right there. Alot will depend on Quincey, Ericsson and Kindl. If 2 can make the jump then maybe Markov or Chely does not return. In that scenario the Wings would have even more money freed up.

Truthfully, we have alot of money available. Are there any big-time goalies up for UFA? Nabby? Toskala? We may be shelling out 5 mil or more to some netminder so Smyth could be out of the question. Which is why I'd stick with Bert.
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#8 Wings3:16

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 03:52 PM

http://www.nhlnumbers.com/det.html

This one says he's right about Kronwall's salary
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#9 DEVILSWATERBOY

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 03:59 PM

QUOTE(BringHomeTheCup! @ May 9, 2007 - 03:30PM) View Post

We all are very familiar with Ryan Smyth. We have seen the heart, passion, and drive he plays with. He is an UFA as of July 1st.

We are also familiar with Todd Bertuzzi. We know that he can score, he is a big body, he has great hands, and isn't afraid to drop the gloves.

I was doing some reading about theses two guys. I got to thinking, who would be a better fit for our team. It's a tough call. I know a lot of you don't think much of Bert, in large part because of he playoff preformace this year. But give the guy a break, he only played a handful of games this year. Next year he will be better. Ryan Smyth isn't anything flashy. He is basicly a smaller Homer who can skate better, and has a much better shot.

Between the two, I think I would take Smyth. Nothing against Bert, but with what the Wings would have to give up to sign him, I just can't say that I think he is worth it. I don't know what it would take to sign Smyth. No doubt it would be something close to what we signed Pav for. I don't know if that is really feasable. I know it is possible. If the Wings were to let Lang and Bert walk, it's very possible. Or even if they could get Bobby to re-up for around $2 per.

I think the biggest disadvantage with Bertuzzi is also his biggest advantage, you just don't know what you are getting. Are you going to get the Bert who isn't putting up much in these playoffs? Or you going to get the pre-Moore Bert who was as dominate as any power forward? I believe that Bert will be well within the Wings price range, but again, to give up more picks to sign him, I'm just not so sure that is a good idea.
Here is what the Wings have committed for next years roster, with a total of $29.3 commited salary.
Lidstrom - $7.6
Datsyuk - $6.7
Zetterburg - $2.7
Draper - $2.128
Holmstrom - $2.250
Samuelson - $1.2
Kronwall - $1.5
Lilja - $1
Franzen - $.900
Filppula - $.850
Osgood - $.800
Cleary - $.675
Lebda - $.550

That's 4 D, 8 F, and 1 G. Realisticly, we need to sign 2 D, 4 F, and at least 1 G. Odd are Cheli and Dom will be re-signed. Assuming both of those guys take similar contracts to what they had this year, that would eat about another $2. If the cap goes up to the sugested $49, I would think Kenny would want to spend about $45. We would have $14 to spend on 1 D and 4 F. It wouldn't be a stretch to get someone like Smyth. Even though Hank will be a UFA in 09-10, one would have to believe the cap would increase enough for the Wings to sign him. Even if the cap stayed stats quo, we have guys in the minors that could fill in gaps for affordable prices. IMO the only real question is Nick, and what he will be looking for after next season. I would much rather lock up Nick than sign a high priced UFA.

Thoughts?

EDIT: I got my salary info HERE it's only salary, no bonus hits included. It's under Player saleries by year. It's a pretty neat site, has a lot of nice info.

Why not sign both Bert and Smyth, Bert may take less considering that he is not performing as well, and Smyth may be looking for his best chance to win a cup and may not demand a high dollar to land him we have enough centers he would replace Lang, just a thou dry.gif ght

#10 gowingsgo

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 04:01 PM

Keep Bertuzzi around. Wait til he plays a full year in the winged wheel.
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#11 brutus

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 04:09 PM

QUOTE(Wings3:16 @ May 9, 2007 - 04:52PM) View Post

http://www.nhlnumbers.com/det.html

This one says he's right about Kronwall's salary


if you read the whole row you would see this

Kronwall, Niklas D 25 0.990 187 0.990 1.140 1.500 3.000 3.250 3.500 3.750 UFA 5-yr Extension; New Cap Number is 3.000
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#12 Hockeytown Red Wings

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 04:14 PM

5 years ago, Bertuzzi....now, no question, Smyth.

"During Robert Lang’s time in Detroit, he caused me anguish. Other times he brought me and my family great joy. Robert Lang occasionally coasts, and spends time searching for the best pane of glass to best view the reflection of his flowing mullet. Other times he is a strong-armed force with the puck. I never knew what to expect from Robert Lang. He is The Enigma. " - A2Y

#13 YoungGuns1340

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 04:15 PM

Bertuzzi will be a lot cheaper.
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#14 brutus

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 04:27 PM

Bertuzzi...his physicality and general attitude is what the wings need....he will be cheaper and when he is 100% healthy he will again be a dominant force in hockey. The mental side will come with playing in an organization like Detroit and I have no doubt he will be a better all-around player because of it.

Look at his last few games...his hitting and toughness is exactly what this team needs...he keeps getting better and better as he gets more games under his belt, and regains confidence in his body.

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#15 glasgowcelticwing

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 04:30 PM

I'd go with Bert , we've already got a Smyth in Hommer.

Edited by glasgowcelticwing, 09 May 2007 - 04:33 PM.

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#16 Vladinator

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 04:31 PM

For the Wings, I would go with Bertuzzi. For a lot of teams, the answer would be Smyth, but the Wings lack size. Bertuzzi fills a void that we needed filled. Yes, his game hasn't been what we might expect of him, but he is coming off of a long layoff and an injury. Give him a full year playing for the Wings before making full judgement.


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#17 BringHomeTheCup!

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 04:34 PM

QUOTE(GordieSid&Ted @ May 9, 2007 - 04:49PM) View Post

Personally, I'm going with Bertuzzi. Maybe its just me but when he was in all the Flames faces and threw Dion Phaneuf down like a rag doll I thought, this is exactly the kind of guy we need. Plus, you can't take the puck from him cause he's too big and strong. IMO, this was an injury year for him and he's just not there yet. Given that fact, how much could he possibly command on the market? He's not going to get near Ryan Smyth money and I like the idea of signing him to a fair contract and seeing if he can regain his form.

You have to figure that at least Filpulla, Kopecky and Markov will likely be re signed, giving you 10 forwards and 5 dmen.

That leaves the unknowns: Here's the likelihood I think each will return

Bertuzzi-75%
Calder-80%
Lang-30%
Hasek-??? who the heck knows with Dom
Schneider-75%
Chelios-75%

I think Schneider will make approximately the same type of money, maybe 3 mil even. Chely will be about the same as well so you'll have 7 dmen right there. Alot will depend on Quincey, Ericsson and Kindl. If 2 can make the jump then maybe Markov or Chely does not return. In that scenario the Wings would have even more money freed up.

Truthfully, we have alot of money available. Are there any big-time goalies up for UFA? Nabby? Toskala? We may be shelling out 5 mil or more to some netminder so Smyth could be out of the question. Which is why I'd stick with Bert.

Flip doesn't need to be re-signed until next season, Kop is signed through 08-09, I would like to see Markov back, just not at anything more than $2. I think Quincey, Kindl, and or Meech could step up, I'd like to see them get a shot, and Cheli stay.

I don't like the idea of Calder coming back, I think he will be available price wise, but he just doesn't do much. Lang if he would take around $2.5 I'd sign him, Hasek will probably be back, Matty if he takes $3 or less.

As far as signing a UFA goalie, the only big name available this offseason is Giggy. I really like his style of play, but I don't think Kenny will go after a big name without finding out what he has is Liv and Howard.

QUOTE(brutus @ May 9, 2007 - 05:09PM) View Post

if you read the whole row you would see this

Kronwall, Niklas D 25 0.990 187 0.990 1.140 1.500 3.000 3.250 3.500 3.750 UFA 5-yr Extension; New Cap Number is 3.000

So next year even though he is only making $1.5, we take a hit of $3? I don't understand the cap, as I'm sure none of us really do, but I would think that it would be the total of his contract spread out over the length?

#18 NeverForgetMac25

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 04:41 PM

Smyth for sure, but I don't see the Wings getting him.

Bert will be cheaper and the Wings have a better shot of picking him up.

I'd prefer Smyth without question though.
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#19 brutus

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 04:42 PM

QUOTE(BringHomeTheCup! @ May 9, 2007 - 05:34PM) View Post

So next year even though he is only making $1.5, we take a hit of $3? I don't understand the cap, as I'm sure none of us really do, but I would think that it would be the total of his contract spread out over the length?



the average of the 5 year deal is $3.0 mil. included in this is the 1.5 for next year.

1.5+3.0+3.25+3.5+3.75= 3 mil average

brutus
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#20 BringHomeTheCup!

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 04:46 PM

QUOTE(brutus @ May 9, 2007 - 05:42PM) View Post

the average of the 5 year deal is $3.0 mil. included in this is the 1.5 for next year.

1.5+3.0+3.25+3.5+3.75= 3 mil average

brutus

Yes, that is what I am asking, is this how it always works?





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