Can we finally relax?

[Guest Crymson]

I guess I'll say what I think, even though most will yell at me for saying it.

Last season, we had Lang on the second line and everyone complained about how horrible he was and he needed to go, well, now he's gone. That's fine, he wasn't an impact player even though he was supposed to be. To me, he played like he just didn't give a damn about the team -- whatever.

I thought Calder started out great. I loved him and was glad to have him with the Wings, and if you remember, he was so glad to be with the Wings. I don't know what happened during playoffs. I'm sorry to see him go -- again, not an impact player, although he did add grit.

I was totally exicted about having Bertuzzi with the Wings. I honestly believed that if he were truly healthy that he would clear the ice for Dats and Zets to play their game. He was an impact player, and I'm sorry to see him go because I have a feeling he will be the 'old' Bert with the Ducks (which totally sucks!!!)

Losing Schneids originally I was mad about. He was an impact player, but getting Rafalski (sp) makes me feel better about that. He, too was an impact player.

During the last few years, even though we lost certain players, we still had serious amounts of impact players. I think we are used to having the experienced vertrans left over (Yzerman, Shannahan, et al,) and didn't worry as much before.

Now, we have Dats, Zetterberg, Homer, Drapes, Malts, Lidstrom, Cleary, Franzen, Flipula, Lilja, Osgood, Chelios and Franzen. All are great players, but none who play with grit, really. Who is our biggest, grittiest guy out of that group?

That's my concern, we have no grit or size. Are we going to have to watch our impact players get pushed and shoved around the ice with noone to back them up?

It wasn't like that a few years ago, and I think that's what's in the back of everyone's mind who is complaining right now.

Just my take.

GO WINGS!

I challenge you to tell me that Homer, Cleary, Franzen and Lilja are not 'gritty.'

You're exaggerating. Do not deal in absolutes.

There's only two concerns I have about the Wings, and both relate to physical aspects of the game. One is size.. with losing Lang and Bertuzzi, the Wings lost size. Ok maybe not too big of a deal, but one void that hasn't been filled is the tough guy the Wings have needed to smack around the goons who want to screw with Dats, Z, Lids, and our skill players.I so tired of other teams bullying and injuring Wing players with no pain in return.

Lang might as well have been 4'8" for how much he used his body on the ice. I think I saw Lang skate quickly in one game, and that was the game immediately after Babcock threatened to bench Lang if Lang didn't pick it up.

[Pucks 66]

Maybe panic isn't the right word here but the roster as is stands right now is your typical ken holland regular season buffet. Sprinkle in a smallish top six winger and some worthless depth D (that we don't need by the way) and we can blow through the central without much trouble. We did manage to get a little younger but we are too soft and small to get to the cup finals. And before anyone says "Did you watch the playoffs" of course but this roster isn't going to beat the sharks and certainly not the ducks. That said it is only the second day but theres nothing left out there in forwards worth having so how is kenny going to get the size we need in the top six? Trades? RFA offers? I don't know but he's got his work cut out from him. If he can't actually get the pieces we need than just let the kids play and see what they got and if they are really good (hudler) than maybe we can use them as trade bait to get what we need.

[Guest Crymson]

Or would have lost...

I doubt it. Look at whom our opponents had as 2nd-line centers. They were ALL better than Lang, who could have played well but chose to be lazy as usual.

And before anyone says "Did you watch the playoffs" of course but this roster isn't going to beat the sharks and certainly not the ducks.

Why don't you just take a time machine to last offseason so you can join in on what everyone was saying back then? Don't bring this s*** up again. It's so totally defeatist and defensively pessimistic that I want to puke.

[handyandy_101 0]

wanna no y im pumped.

im hearin all this s*** about how this offseason has been kickin us rite square in the nads, and if u look at the numbers of guys weve lost and gotten, i can see y ud think that....but...then i like to remember what we do have and not wut we dont. honestly, nick lidstrom fukin makes this team go, and unless were afraid of losing him, things really cant be that bad... datsyuk and zetterberg, those guys are just gonna be mosters this year, i can feel it. i truly believe that either of these two guys could walk away with the league points lead come the end of the season, they are both that talented...add to that my boys holmstrom, cleary and cheli, and than u start to realize.....hey, all of our most important players are still here. maybe we should leave an apologetic message on ken holla nds machine telling him not to drive his car because we cut his brakes in anger sometime last nite after 8 oclock. hes the best gm in the game...and unless its a debate about who would win in a 'tothedeath cage match', id choose him over burke's frumpy ass any day.

wurd

[Kp-Wings 3]

Maybe panic isn't the right word here but the roster as is stands right now is your typical ken holland regular season buffet. Sprinkle in a smallish top six winger and some worthless depth D (that we don't need by the way) and we can blow through the central without much trouble. We did manage to get a little younger but we are too soft and small to get to the cup finals. And before anyone says "Did you watch the playoffs" of course but this roster isn't going to beat the sharks and certainly not the ducks. That said it is only the second day but theres nothing left out there in forwards worth having so how is kenny going to get the size we need in the top six? Trades? RFA offers? I don't know but he's got his work cut out from him. If he can't actually get the pieces we need than just let the kids play and see what they got and if they are really good (hudler) than maybe we can use them as trade bait to get what we need.

Oh Christ. The usual cliche.

[Guest Crymson]

Oh Christ. The usual cliche.

No kidding. Are some of these people using brains mass-produced in the same factory? They come up with the same junk year after year. Sheesh.

Edited July 3, 2007 by Crymson

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Had somebody who was not such a worthless 2nd-line center been on the ice in place of Lang, we might have won that game by three. Who knows?

see below.

Agreed. While we might all think that we know best, we really don't.

The Lang bashing is f-ing ridiculous. Especially because the guy is gone. He was inconsistent and a non-factor in a lot of games, but Babcock saw fit to have him on the ice 10-15 minutes in the playoffs. Yet he gets talked about here like he doesn't even deserve to play in the AHL. 19 goals, 33 assists, 2 big goals and 6 assists in the playoffs. Yeah, he sucks.

As for grit, I'd say Homer is probably the grittiest. He not only takes a beating in front of the net, but he played with a major attitude this last postseason. Throwing guys down, getting in their face, not taking crap after the whistle. Plus coming back after Pronger tried to put his elbows through the back of his head.

I said this in another thread, but it's worth saying again. I am getting tired year after year of the Wings not making moves to add some big physical players. We've lost a lot of team toughness since the Cup years, and it hasn't been replaced.

EDIT: To be clear, I'm glad Lang is gone. But enough is enough.

Edited July 3, 2007 by haroldsnepsts

[spydrwebb 0]

wanna no y im pumped.

im hearin all this s*** about how this offseason has been kickin us rite square in the nads, and if u look at the numbers of guys weve lost and gotten, i can see y ud think that....but...then i like to remember what we do have and not wut we dont. honestly, nick lidstrom fukin makes this team go, and unless were afraid of losing him, things really cant be that bad... datsyuk and zetterberg, those guys are just gonna be mosters this year, i can feel it. i truly believe that either of these two guys could walk away with the league points lead come the end of the season, they are both that talented...add to that my boys holmstrom, cleary and cheli, and than u start to realize.....hey, all of our most important players are still here. maybe we should leave an apologetic message on ken holla nds machine telling him not to drive his car because we cut his brakes in anger sometime last nite after 8 oclock. hes the best gm in the game...and unless its a debate about who would win in a 'tothedeath cage match', id choose him over burke's frumpy ass any day.

wurd

what?

please remove the marbles from your mouth before talking.

am i the only one that can't make sense of this?

[DBR 12]

I challenge you to tell me that Homer, Cleary, Franzen and Lilja are not 'gritty.'

You're exaggerating. Do not deal in absolutes.

I do not disagree that Cleary, Franze and Lilja are not gritty, but their size -- by the time playoffs were over, you could see the wear and tear it took on them. Don't get me wrong, I am totally grateful that they gave it their all and sacrificed everything that they are to win each and every game. I know their hearts were in it, I'm not doubting that.

What I'm trying to say is these guys can't be expected to do all by themselves, They need others who can step in and do what they do. They should not be expected to HAVE to play like that each and every single minute they are on the ice. I think they need help, if for nothing else but to relieve some of the pressure.

[Kp-Wings 3]

I said this in another thread, but it's worth saying again. I am getting tired year after year of the Wings not making moves to add some big physical players. We've lost a lot of team toughness since the Cup years, and it hasn't been replaced.

I agree, but this year was different then last year. The year the Oilers upset the Wings was clearly lost on two things: those being the Wings were extremely soft, and Manny decided to tank. Grit was a major issue that year.

The loss to the Ducks, however, was more or less luck. I really don't want to get into that whole debate again, but it is what it is. The Wings showed plenty of grit during this years playoffs, and outhit every team they played. The guys who did it aren't exactly overly gritty guys, but Babcock was able to get them to play that way. The Wings didn't lose to Anaheim because they didn't have enough grit. I think most will agree with me.

[DBR 12]

I agree, but this year was different then last year. The year the Oilers upset the Wings was clearly lost on two things: those being the Wings were extremely soft, and Manny decided to tank. Grit was a major issue that year.

The loss to the Ducks, however, was more or less luck. I really don't want to get into that whole debate again, but it is what it is. The Wings showed plenty of grit during this years playoffs, and outhit every team they played. The guys who did it aren't exactly overly gritty guys, but Babcock was able to get them to play that way. The Wings didn't lose to Anaheim because they didn't have enough grit. I think most will agree with me.

I definitely do agree with you. That's what I've been trying to say. I don't know if it's the size of our players or what, I noticed with each team we played in the playoffs that the other teams' players looked huge, some like giants, compared to a majority of our guys. And you are most definitey right when you say that the year before against the Oilers, grit WAS the issue.

This kinds of brings up another point: Has anyone heard that some of the players that have left the Wings, now and withinin the last year, there has been mention that they didn't get along with Babs with the way he wanted them to play, or something. I read about it with Schneider and others. I wonder if that has anything to do with players not coming or wanting to come play for the Wings now?

Edit: Spelling/Grammar

Edited July 3, 2007 by DBR

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

I agree, but this year was different then last year. The year the Oilers upset the Wings was clearly lost on two things: those being the Wings were extremely soft, and Manny decided to tank. Grit was a major issue that year.

The loss to the Ducks, however, was more or less luck. I really don't want to get into that whole debate again, but it is what it is. The Wings showed plenty of grit during this years playoffs, and outhit every team they played. The guys who did it aren't exactly overly gritty guys, but Babcock was able to get them to play that way. The Wings didn't lose to Anaheim because they didn't have enough grit. I think most will agree with me.

Babcock definitely did get them to play that way, but I think you're discounting Anaheim's size and physical nature wearing down the Wings. It wasn't luck. anaheim was the better team and scored when it counted.

It definitely wasn't the only reason, but it was one of them. they also had to contend with key injuries and some bad bounces. But by the end of the series, they started to look like the Wings of old. There were a lot more perimeter shots and a lot less crashing the net.

And even aside from being able to handle a beating, I want the Wings to be the ones doling it out. I want teams to get ground down trying to play against our defense and checking lines.

Over the years the Wings have lost Fischer, McCarty, Shanahan, Lapointe, Ward, Kocur, Fetisov, Konstantinov and as much as I can't stand hiim, even Sean Avery and haven't really replaced any of them in terms of toughness.

I think people don't remember or discount just how tough and sometimes nasty the Wings were to play against in their Cup runs. They've always had a lot of skill, but they used to also have a lot of team toughness.

[Kp-Wings 3]

Babcock definitely did get them to play that way, but I think you're discounting Anaheim's size and physical nature wearing down the Wings. It wasn't luck. anaheim was the better team and scored when it counted.

It definitely wasn't the only reason, but it was one of them. they also had to contend with key injuries and some bad bounces. But by the end of the series, they started to look like the Wings of old. There were a lot more perimeter shots and a lot less crashing the net.

And even aside from being able to handle a beating, I want the Wings to be the ones doling it out. I want teams to get ground down trying to play against our defense and checking lines.

Over the years the Wings have lost Fischer, McCarty, Shanahan, Lapointe, Ward, Kocur, Fetisov, Konstantinov and as much as I can't stand hiim, even Sean Avery and haven't really replaced any of them in terms of toughness.

I think people don't remember or discount just how tough and sometimes nasty the Wings were to play against in their Cup runs. They've always had a lot of skill, but they used to also have a lot of team toughness.

You do make a good point.

I've been critical of Holland of this in the past, since the kind of player he's looking for only exists in mythology (aka power forward). There are a ton of alternatives, ranging from Arron Asham to Raffi Torres to Jason Weimer to many others for that matter. I really wish that, for once, Holland would grant my birthday wishes and sign someone like this. I don't know why he's so afraid to, since all of these guys can do other things but be one-dimensional fighters.

[DBR 12]

Babcock definitely did get them to play that way, but I think you're discounting Anaheim's size and physical nature wearing down the Wings. It wasn't luck. anaheim was the better team and scored when it counted.

It definitely wasn't the only reason, but it was one of them. they also had to contend with key injuries and some bad bounces. But by the end of the series, they started to look like the Wings of old. There were a lot more perimeter shots and a lot less crashing the net.

And even aside from being able to handle a beating, I want the Wings to be the ones doling it out. I want teams to get ground down trying to play against our defense and checking lines.

Over the years the Wings have lost Fischer, McCarty, Shanahan, Lapointe, Ward, Kocur, Fetisov, Konstantinov and as much as I can't stand hiim, even Sean Avery and haven't really replaced any of them in terms of toughness.

I think people don't remember or discount just how tough and sometimes nasty the Wings were to play against in their Cup runs. They've always had a lot of skill, but they used to also have a lot of team toughness.

Man, you are so right!!!! Talent, grit and toughness is what wins Cups. And wearing down the Wings is what lost them the cance to paly for the Cup in the finals.

It sucks because I honestly don't know what Kenny plans to do to get that back? It seems as though last year, we learned from our misttaes; obviously, it showed because of how well we did during playoffs.

I don't know, with the loss of Bertuzzi and don't really see anything of who were going to sign, it's kind of scary right now. I guess for me, I don't understand what the gameplan Kenny has. It would help if we knew something...........

[ShanahanMan 473]

Now this is just a rumor!!! Reportedly someone stated that Hurricanes are trying to do a trade. Some other report stated Wings are looking into getting Ray Whitney. I doubt this will happen but I just wanted to inform you guys that IF (big if) it does happen then I called it first!

did you find the link yet?

[Superman54 91]

did you find the link yet?

For some reason its not letting me go to it...I'm still trying though.

[therock48880 14]

The guys who did it aren't exactly overly gritty guys, but Babcock was able to get them to play that way.

Wouldn't it be easier for Babcock if Holland actually signed some gritty players for a change? Then Babs wouldn't have to do that whole "square peg, round hole" thing.

I completely agree with harold about the Wings lack of size. I get so tired of seeing Hasek (IF he signs now) getting run and nothing being done about it. How many times did Giguere get run? I can't remember many, if any. Yet I remember Hasek getting run at least 6 times in the playoffs last year. How about all the cheap ass boarding penalties during the year? At one point, Lebda had to get up with a concussion and defend himself because no one else did. Unbelievable.

It's easy to forget that a HUGE part of the back to back cup winning teams was the fact that each line had at least one person who was big and would defend a teammate. Lapointe, Shanahan, Mccarty to name a few. This team, as constructed has Lilja.

[Majsheppard 203]

There is a saying, if your not moving foward you are moving backwards.

I do not see much progression in terms of sustaining our team. I do trust Holland more then any GM in sports, but I am begining to panic because I don't see how we can rev up for the playoffs if we don't do more now. Bert and Schneider can go to hell, I won't miss them now. Though who is going to step in for us?

Now it looks like its going to be

Zetter Pavel Homer

Hudler?(wait he might be gone) /Val/Franzen

Malts/Drapes/Cleary

Sam/Kopecky/Igor?

I mean thats not at all comforting. I mean, even if we picked up Yanic or Smolinski I could feel a bit better about how it turned out.

[Ozzie30 170]

The size debate continues. Did the Ducks win the Cup because they're big? No. Gritty? It helps. Team defense, timely goals, and getting into your opponents head (part of grit) are all important to a sucessful Cup run. I saw all of this from this Wings team. If, as every Wings fan claims, the season doesn't start until April, then we're quibbling over nothing. The fact is once Hasek re-signs, this is the team that took us to April. Lang schmang, we have two guys who should be given the shot to step up and fill the "void" on the second line in Hudler (provided he stays) and Filppula. Kopecky is still here (6'3 190 - possibly bigger by now) if you're looking for a big body to throw around. Grigorenko may turn out to be a stud, who knows. In any event, the Wings definately have a team that can take them to April and the loot to pickup some size, skill, or void fillers at the deadline as necessary. Trust in Ken Holland and trust in the team.

Edited July 3, 2007 by Ozzie30

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

I see alot of panic on this message board, which I think is strange. After all the great teams Holland has whipped together for us, can't we finally just trust his instincts? Everyone seems to be worried since we lost lang, calder, todd, and matt. But honestly, were any of them actually essential to our success? (Especially since Rafalski will easily replace schneider, the only one of true value) There also seems to be alot of concern over the fact that a number of the top FAs are already gone.

What needs to be remembered is this: In 2005 Detroit was expected to be really hurt because of the salary cap... in 2006 Detroit was expected to be really hurt by the loss of Yzerman and shanny. Each time, we're at the top. I think Holland knows what he is doing. I expect we'll be just as good as last year, if not better. Care to disagree?

NO!

Relaxing is normal, I don't want to be normal!

Seriously though, this time is definitely exciting, but it's absolutely nothing to get your hair in a rut over, especially when we know last year's version of the Wings exceeded expectations and almost went to the SCF. I don't see much of a drop-off with next year's roster even before free agency crazy signings settle down, so why get worked up?

I barely miss any games and keep up with information on the Wings, but the playoffs is where it matters most, not the off-season.

[Pucks 66]

Oh Christ. The usual cliche.

Don't get me wrong I love the wings style and don't want this to be a team full of goons bye any stretch of the imagination. I heard an interview with ken holland on the radio and he said " if we could only have scored on the 5 on 3's we liked our chances". That's the one thing about him i don't like, he always wants to through more goals at everything. How about why the hell do you have to score 5 goals to win a game against the ducks. A lot of things could have made a difference, like have our other two top 4 d in the lineup or maybe having some size to control the bigger players swarming our zone. A couple of bounces and we could have beat the ducks, but a couple of bounces and the sharks could have beat us so...

Oh and Crymson its a discussion if you don't want to discuss why come here. The discussion is like year because the same issues again apply.

[Valas19 50]

KLJSKGLJS

I love Ray! He has been EXCELLENT ever since the Wings bought him out. He was a huge part of the Canes Cup win and has just been on fire ever since. Having him back would be sweet!

That was a bummer losing Whitney. The guy quietly did rather well but was kinda lost among all the other Wings with the bigger names. I'd love to see him back.

[Pucks 66]

If we're talking skilled guys i'd rather have Kozlov.

[scotzman 29]

I think Kenny knows what he wants to do and therefore knows what he's doing, but that does not mean that he is doing a great job thus far.

IF Hasek resigns, Kenny has lost 5 out of 6 FA's. 5 out of 6!! Lang and Calder can be chalked up as his decision not to resign (Calder would have looked pretty good at this point). Schneids, Bert & Markov all bolted, partially because Kenny wouldn't budge. Bert wanted 2 years... it wasn't so much the money, it was the length. Are you telling me he couldn't have worked something out before Bert had his agent call Burke? Plus, Schneids ended up making less than the guy we signed for 5 years and $30 Million!! Tell me how that makes sense... he may be younger, but we just tied up a bunch of money in this guy. At least Schneider would be gone in two years!

This has to hurt a little. You can't tell me he was hoping to lose 5 of the 6 guys. I agree that the contracts have been outrageous, but we need to replace Lang and Bert, plus add a depth D-Man. On top of that, as mentioned before, the lack of size on this team is getting ridiculous and if Kenny can't see that, he may not be as sharp as we think.

I am not panicking. I still trust Kenny, but look at the facts... things are not working out the way anyone planned. Not even Kenny.

[DBR 12]

I think Kenny knows what he wants to do and therefore knows what he's doing, but that does not mean that he is doing a great job thus far.

IF Hasek resigns, Kenny has lost 5 out of 6 FA's. 5 out of 6!! Lang and Calder can be chalked up as his decision not to resign (Calder would have looked pretty good at this point). Schneids, Bert & Markov all bolted, partially because Kenny wouldn't budge. Bert wanted 2 years... it wasn't so much the money, it was the length. Are you telling me he couldn't have worked something out before Bert had his agent call Burke? Plus, Schneids ended up making less than the guy we signed for 5 years and $30 Million!! Tell me how that makes sense... he may be younger, but we just tied up a bunch of money in this guy. At least Schneider would be gone in two years!

This has to hurt a little. You can't tell me he was hoping to lose 5 of the 6 guys. I agree that the contracts have been outrageous, but we need to replace Lang and Bert, plus add a depth D-Man. On top of that, as mentioned before, the lack of size on this team is getting ridiculous and if Kenny can't see that, he may not be as sharp as we think.

I am not panicking. I still trust Kenny, but look at the facts... things are not working out the way anyone planned. Not even Kenny.

I agree. I have read that different players who have left before, including Schneider, didn't get along with Babcock's way of doing things and didn't see eye to eye with him. Not that I'm complaining about Lang leaving, but I know I read something about him in realtion to Babcock, too. I'm not blaming Babcock, but maybe Kenny needs to look into replacing Babcock and see what kind of difference it makes in terms of players wanting to come here and paly.

On the other hand, are we just spoiled? I remember when players were so excited to come and play here. I don't hear that anymore. Just a thought......