Guest jaytan Report post Posted July 20, 2007 The "carry a legit enforcer" part. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yzerfan1999 81 Report post Posted July 20, 2007 right, but Detroit didnt carry a legit enforcer - got as far as Buffalo, and we all know they could have taken down the Sens. I just find it hard to believe having a Derek Boogaard on our club would have put us over the top. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
N4C3R 0 Report post Posted July 20, 2007 (edited) I really like the idea of using Kocur as a consultant to help our guys work on their technique. We have some big young guys coming through the system who could benefit from this. Can you guys imagine Johan Ryno after working with Joey Kocur for 3-4 camps? He already has the size and disposition, and he's young enough to be taught good and proper. right, but Detroit didnt carry a legit enforcer - got as far as Buffalo, and we all know they could have taken down the Sens. I just find it hard to believe having a Derek Boogaard on our club would have put us over the top. Have you seen him go to work on guys? I'd love to see him wearing the Winged Wheel, and see Pronger just try and put a dirty hit on anyone. There is no way Pronger does that and doesn't get a beat down from Boogaard. Pascal Dupuis is glad to have him on the team: A little summary of his skills: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uH0BEoA9hsE Anybody think Pronger (or anyone else for that matter) might think twice about putting a dirty hit on our boys if Boogie was on the bench? Edited July 20, 2007 by N4C3R Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skacore 2 Report post Posted July 20, 2007 No, I don't need to fall back on stats. But Kopecky came back from an injury and was not at 100% during the playoffs. Brad May was at 100% and had stats comparable to Kopecky. No one was afraid of the Ducks fighting prowess in the playoffs, only their blueline and goaltending. I would rather have Kopecky than Brad May. At least with Kopecky there is a chance of there being talent where as to May there is no chance. But I expect you to argue this point as well and I'm sure that someone who wants Chris Simon on the Wings will have strong feelings as to why toughness and cheapshots to players (see any one Simon or May's highlight reels) have a place on a puck-possession based team over players who have offensive upsdes. Brad May was 100%? The guy fought more injuries than 99% of the league this year and he played LESS regular season games than Kopecky yet May is somehow 100% and you know this how...? They both came back from injuries and were put on 4th lines, May out played Kopecky, dunno how it's possible to argue that. Why would you prefer Kopecky? "Chance of there being talent where as to May there is no chance"? For 1 May was not acquired to put up points (again, ignore stats), his scoring days are pretty much over.. he is in the line up to aggitate, forecheck, crash and bang, and play hard two ways, he played that role to perfection. I'm not saying anyone was "afraid" of the Duck's fighting abilities in the playoffs but I sure didn't see any cheap shots on them, and whether or not he has to fight or not, he can if he has to which makes him a very versatile player. Also, May challenged Kopecky on a couple of occasions to fight in the playoffs which Kopecky declined.. he acted like he wanted to one time when the linesmen were in between but that was just for show... that alone plays a small part in the physiological game of hockey. If Tomas Kopecky becomes a solid two-way tough player like Brad May is and manages to have half the career that May has had, I'll be pretty damn happy... the guy is younger and taller, but that's all he has on May If you consider Buffalo successful, why is Detroit left out of that group? Detroit is successful but do not carry a legit enforcer like Andrew Peters Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sticknmove 0 Report post Posted July 20, 2007 (edited) ***BOOGARD HIGHLIGHTS*** GOD WHAT I WOULDNT GIVE TO HAVE HIM, you think his team appreciates him or do you think he is a waste of a roster spot? its not secret either he has been working hard during both the regular and off season on footspeed, hands, etc. so he will only get better, jeez. haha i bet all the anti enforcers here had a freaking heart attack watching that highlight video, haha i mean only watching the wings you may forget that there are different aspects to nhl games. ahh i f*cking love em, but we need a legitimate tough guy "Detroit is successful but do not carry a legit enforcer like Andrew Peters" well they werent as successful as Ottowa or Anaheim and they both carried legit enforcers Edited July 20, 2007 by sticknmove Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skacore 2 Report post Posted July 20, 2007 right, but Detroit didnt carry a legit enforcer - got as far as Buffalo, and we all know they could have taken down the Sens. I just find it hard to believe having a Derek Boogaard on our club would have put us over the top. that wasn't the original argument... you just said that guys that are labelled an "enforcer" are no longer a part of the game anymore so I replied with a few successful teams who believe they ARE a part of the game and Derek Boogaard is not a good example, he is a great asset to the Wild, did you see any of Minnesota vs. Anaheim game #4? Boogaard set up the tying goal (1-1) and challenged the entire Anaheim bench... the fans were going nuts chanting Boogaard and the Ducks wanted nothing to do with him... too bad the series was already over at 3-0 heading in a guy like Brian McGrattan or Andrew Peters is probably a better example because they can hardly skate, rarely catch anyone on a forecheck and don't dress in the playoffs "Detroit is successful but do not carry a legit enforcer like Andrew Peters" well they werent as successful as Ottowa or Anaheim and they both carried legit enforcers that's my point... read my post lol on top of everything else it would help attendance... fans like tough, physical play and they don't like to see there team be steamrolled and then back down.. was anyone else a little embarrassed about the attendance at the Joe during the playoffs? (and reg season) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
N4C3R 0 Report post Posted July 20, 2007 that wasn't the original argument... you just said that guys that are labelled an "enforcer" are no longer a part of the game anymore so I replied with a few successful teams who believe they ARE a part of the game and Derek Boogaard is not a good example, he is a great asset to the Wild, did you see any of Minnesota vs. Anaheim game #4? Boogaard set up the tying goal (1-1) and challenged the entire Anaheim bench... the fans were going nuts chanting Boogaard and the Ducks wanted nothing to do with him... too bad the series was already over at 3-0 heading in a guy like Brian McGrattan or Andrew Peters is probably a better example because they can hardly skate, rarely catch anyone on a forecheck and don't dress in the playoffs that's my point... read my post lol on top of everything else it would help attendance... fans like tough, physical play and they don't like to see there team be steamrolled and then back down.. was anyone else a little embarrassed about the attendance at the Joe during the playoffs? (and reg season) Yes, it was completely embarassing to see empty seats at the Joe during the playoffs! I wore my jersey to work on game day every day this playoffs. I work 40 miles north of San Jose, so it definitely got interesting on occasion with some of the banter. It was still embarassing to see empty seats at the Joe. I know I think different than most GMs, but I'd do anything to get Boogaard on the team. I watched that game 4 against Anaheim, it was just insane how much energy he single-handedly pumped into the building while also, single-handedly, shutting up the Anaheim bench. That folks, is an Enforcer at his very best. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SouthernWingsFan 854 Report post Posted July 20, 2007 Yikes, looks like we need a reality check after reading some recent posts in here, at least in terms of setting expectations. This team, nor any other team in the NHL, is not going to make the SCF year in and year out. I’m all for setting lofty goals to achieve, but we have to have some realism here. We often want too much, too fast. A lot of us are ridiculously spoiled as a fan base, and there is no way of sugarcoating it. I don’t care who you are in this forum, if I’m your best buddy or talked to you through an IM or e-mail or if you don’t like me. A LOT OF US ARE SPOILED by this team, myself included. That’s not always a bad thing, but when you let that get your expectations to be unrealistic (like expecting to win the Cup year in and year out), it’s a problem. Now, with "enforcement" and whether it would've made a difference this season in the playoffs or not. It probably could've been used in many recent years where they've been eliminated early, yes. 2003 getting eliminated early by the Ducks, or 2001 getting eliminated early by the Kings are good examples. However, in 1999, the Wings were eliminated in the 2nd round, despite some trade-deadine acquisitions of snarl in Chris Chelios and Ulf Samuelsson. Two guys known to be “tough†and “physicalâ€Â. In 2004, eliminated in the 2nd round, again with Derian Hatcher on the team supposedly being the “tough guy†knocking people into the next zip code. Let’s not get into whether he should/shouldn’t have been playing, I’ve torn my ACL/MCL from playing basketball, and I’m not athlete, so I have an idea of how hard it is to get back into shape, so I’m cutting him slack. But another example of a hard hitter he is. And, if “enforcers†are supposed to be a major solution to the Wings problems, how come they didn’t win the Cup in 1999 with a guy like Ulf Samuelsson on board? In 2004 with Hatcher? Both can hit hard, etc. Why didn’t they win then? Back to expectations...Again, I’m all for setting big goals, but given the recent crappy playoff performances, I’m pretty happy how far they have advanced this past postseason. Completely satisfied? Of course not, but we got to keep our expectations in check sometimes and be REALISTIC. If you think, when the playoffs started, that they would just waltz into Stanley Cup Finals or come close to it, given the recent early playoff exists, I’d be really interested to know how you came up with those thoughts. They finally figured it out this past season to put the 3 Cups aside in the past, work hard and all that stuff in the playoffs, enforcer or no enforcer. San Jose and Calgary were supposed to knock this team in submission. They did not. I don’t think Anaheim really just outhit the hell out of the team either to where the Wings just backed away. Again, I stress that I like physical play. Is there a need for it fir the Wings (or any team for that matter)? Absolutely, but I get so tired of reading how overhyped enforcement is and how it’s close to being the “end of all end†solutions to solve Detroit’s problems, especially after this team made a pretty deep run this past postseason without a lot/any “big tough guys†(again). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sticknmove 0 Report post Posted July 20, 2007 "And, if “enforcers†are supposed to be a major solution to the Wings problems, how come they didn’t win the Cup in 1999 with a guy like Ulf Samuelsson on board? In 2004 with Hatcher? Both can hit hard, etc. Why didn’t they win then?" First off I dont think anyone is arguing that enforcers singleandedly win stanley cups, moreover Ulf Samuelsson is hardly an enforcer actually more known around the league as cheapshot extrordinare/coward. I know i feel, and a couple others that an enforcer/policeman is merely an element that would make this great Wings team better. Possibly be the missing piece of the puzzle. **HERE ARE SOME COMPARITIVE STATS WITH NORTON (an enforcer) AND OUR OTHER 4TH LINE FILLINS*** -Brad Norton 6 games played 0 goals 1 assist 20 PIM +3 *5 FM -Tomas Kopecky 27 games played 1 goal 0 assists 21 PIM -1 *0 FM -Matt Ellis 16 games played 0 goals 0 assists -1 6 PIM -1 *0 FM -Derek Meech 4 games played 0 goals 0 assists +1 2 PIM *0 FM -Kyle Quincey 13 games played 1 goal 0 assists 0 2 PIM *0 FM -Matt Hussey 5 games played 0 goals 0 assists -2 2 PIM *0 FM -Josh Langfield 33 games played 0 goals 2 assists +2 12 PIM *0 FM *****Besides Langfield Norton looks like he brought the most to the table, the numbers speak for themselves my friends Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GoWings1905 2,694 Report post Posted July 20, 2007 (edited) Great post SWF Edited July 20, 2007 by GoWings1905 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeDs 0 Report post Posted July 20, 2007 When Datsyuk or Zetterburg are seriously injured by a cheap shot maybe some of these people on here will understand. If you don't like fighting go watch soccer. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Izzy24 44 Report post Posted July 20, 2007 When Datsyuk or Zetterburg are seriously injured by a cheap shot maybe some of these people on here will understand. If you don't like fighting go watch soccer. Have you ever watched a soccer match? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Flip-check 6 Report post Posted July 20, 2007 Have you ever watched a soccer match? Even better question is, "Have you ever been to a soccer match?" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Izzy24 44 Report post Posted July 20, 2007 Even better question is, "Have you ever been to a soccer match?" True. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kp-Wings 3 Report post Posted July 20, 2007 (edited) Make sure you use this montra for every team then. Just curious, how many playoff years does make it a regular basis? If not one, it surely can't be two, so Anaheim can't be the standard. I just don't understand why you're so hellbent on completely dismissing what this team did last year, along with virtually everyone else in this thread. It almost seems disrespectful to the team. I don't understand why everyone thinks what I'm saying is so totally ridiculous. How is it? If the going ever gets rough, I doubt anybody on the current Wings roster will stick up for anybody. My problem with Holland is he goes out and gives these useless idiot players like Samulesson a 3-year extension because of one good season. Samulesson brings nothing to the table. And before I get the classic "Samulesson is a cheap 20 goal scorer" bulls***, keep in mind that Jason Williams was also a one-time 20 goal scorer, and he sucked beyond recognition. Everyone on these forums wanted him gone as well. I don't understand why it's so obsurd that the Wings add toughness. I mean, seriously. Who would be more valuable to this team? Arron Asham or Mikeal Samulesson? And if you want to know the reason why I'm dismissing, it's because of what went on during the season. The constant effect of players on other teams taking liberties on various Wings players, especially whenever we played St. Louis. There were 4 seperate incidences that came out of those games. None of which were ever dealt with by anyone on the Wings themselves, like what normally goes on in hockey. I'm not saying that one enforcer is going to completely stop the problem, because it won't. But God damn it: Why does everyone think I'm so crazy when I say an enforcer could be a big help to the Wings, and is a better player than Samulesson and can be used more effectivily? Christ, everyone on these forums always talks about how bad Samulesson is, yet whenever it comes down to topics like this, everybody always defends him. And nobdoy ever wants anybody to stick up for one another, which I can't understand either. I must be speaking in greek or something, because I don't see how what I'm saying is that bad. Because I don't think the Wings are that tough of a team? Oh boy, I'm such a horrible person, aren't I! Yet, considering the fact that nobody on the Wings ever sticks up for one another, that also makes me right. Did anybody go after Dallas Drake when he ran Lebda? No. Did anybody go after Raffi Torres when he crushed Williams? No. Did anybody go after Ryan Johnson when he ran over Hasek? No. Did anybody go after Brad Stuart when he checked Zetterberg from behind? No. Did anybody go after Ian Laparriere when he was running Hasek? No. It's not rocket science people. The Wings don't have anybody that will go after these guys that decide they want to take liberties. Again: I'm not saying one player will do the trick to make it stop, so don't accuse me of doing so. But it would, at least be a step in the right direction. And one last thing: before anybody thinks again that I'm just ranting or whatever, there is another good point to having an enforcer. If the Wings had somebody that other players knew would go after them if they pulled something stupid on one of the Wings star players, perhaps Zetteberg wouldn't have injured his back last season. Just some food for thought for those who think I'm such an assbag because I'm saying all of this. edited for grammar Edited July 20, 2007 by Kp-Wings Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheBadOne 0 Report post Posted July 20, 2007 However, in 1999, the Wings were eliminated in the 2nd round, despite some trade-deadine acquisitions of snarl in Chris Chelios and Ulf Samuelsson. Two guys known to be “tough†and “physicalâ€Â. In 2004, eliminated in the 2nd round, again with Derian Hatcher on the team supposedly being the “tough guy†knocking people into the next zip code. Let’s not get into whether he should/shouldn’t have been playing, I’ve torn my ACL/MCL from playing basketball, and I’m not athlete, so I have an idea of how hard it is to get back into shape, so I’m cutting him slack. But another example of a hard hitter he is. And, if “enforcers†are supposed to be a major solution to the Wings problems, how come they didn’t win the Cup in 1999 with a guy like Ulf Samuelsson on board? In 2004 with Hatcher? Both can hit hard, etc. Why didn’t they win then? They finally figured it out this past season to put the 3 Cups aside in the past, work hard and all that stuff in the playoffs, enforcer or no enforcer. San Jose and Calgary were supposed to knock this team in submission. They did not. I don’t think Anaheim really just outhit the hell out of the team either to where the Wings just backed away. Again, I stress that I like physical play. Is there a need for it fir the Wings (or any team for that matter)? Absolutely, but I get so tired of reading how overhyped enforcement is and how it’s close to being the “end of all end†solutions to solve Detroit’s problems, especially after this team made a pretty deep run this past postseason without a lot/any “big tough guys†(again). First off... WE AIN'T FOUND s***! Why didn't the Wings do well with guys like Ulf and Hatcher? Well, by the time Ulf got to Detroit, he was skating into the twilight of his career. Both he AND Wendel Clark came before the 1999 Playoffs to add toughness, but they began showing their age. Neither one of them made it 50 games the following season before opting for retirement. I don't even think Ranford did either. As for Hatcher, he hasn't been the same since his injury. Think about it, he hasn't broke 100 PIM or 20 points in the regular season since he singed with the Wings, and he didn't really put up great numbers when he played for the Mechanics. As it stands right now, Hatcher is largely a player in decline. Calgary has guys who fight, but aren't laden with enforcers. Frankly, they were too caught up in the antics of trying to get the Wings to fight that they forgot they were contending for the Stanley Cup until they were shaking hands with the Wings and wishing them well in the next round of the playoffs. San Jose did play a physical game, but given the nasty series they had with Nashville prior to facing Detroit, they probably didn't want to fight any more than the Wings wanted to. And if that's a series that's going to come down to which team is better technically, the Wings were just a better all around team. While an enforcer is not the end all to Detroit's solutions, it would have ultimately made some difference in the WCF. It can't be entirely encouraging to watch Shawn Thornton throw around Danny Markov and remember how both Lilja and Franzen were both beaten up earlier in the season by the team. The Wings did win that game and they won the game where J.S. couldn't stop a beach ball. But while Anaheim had the ability to play as physical of a game as the Wings could, they were able to operate with the confidence of knowing that they could throw their weight around however they'd like. If there was a Boogaard, a McGrattan, or a Peters sitting in the press box at first, would it have been as bad to have that kinda guy on hand than to have deadline acquisitions that disappear in the playoffs? Probably not. Maybe Bertuzzi coulda fought, but his fighting hasn't been at the same level as it was before the Steve Moore incident, for which I can't entirely blame him. I agree 100% that Wings fans are spoiled by a successful team, myself included. However, this is an area that the Wings have been deficient in since they last one a Stanley Cup, a team that had homegrown fighters like McCarty, Avery, and even Fischer all while having Shanahan wearing the "A". Yeah, those guys were around the following two seasons (save Avery) until the lockout occurred, but at the same time, both McCarty and Shanahan were starting show their age a bit, and Fischer was out most of the 02-03 season after being injured. In fairness, neither Ryan Barnes or Darryl Bootland panned out like anyone would have hoped, so I'll give the Wings credit for trying. At the same time, the Wings didn't have anyone in development that was able to be tough and skilled. The guys they went after for that role were either unproven minor leaguers or tough guys who were past their prime. Had the Wings did the level of scouting that Anaheim did to acquire younger players from other teams to build a mix of grit and toughness, it could have only helped to address what they've been lacking in for a while now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sticknmove 0 Report post Posted July 20, 2007 (edited) I knew soccer fans were nuts but this is f*cking insane. Is this what it would be like if the red wings fans (side in all red) squared off with colorado fans a few years back.? s***, enforcers. there fans will kill ya if you run at one of their guys. wow Edited July 20, 2007 by sticknmove Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skacore 2 Report post Posted July 20, 2007 I knew soccer fans were nuts but this is f*cking insane. Is this what it would be like if the red wings fans (side in all red) squared off with colorado fans a few years back.? s***, enforcers. there fans will kill ya if you run at one of their guys. wow they have nothing else to look forward to in life lol Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sticknmove 0 Report post Posted July 20, 2007 HAHA could you imagine when someone like St. Louis came to town, 200 Wings fans waiting for them on woodward. then a battle raging haha. that is nuts though, i wonder how angry people get on their forums/? eek Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skacore 2 Report post Posted July 20, 2007 HAHA could you imagine when someone like St. Louis came to town, 200 Wings fans waiting for them on woodward. then a battle raging haha. that is nuts though, i wonder how angry people get on their forums/? eek computers and internet...good one! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Crymson Report post Posted July 20, 2007 (edited) I really like the idea of using Kocur as a consultant to help our guys work on their technique. We have some big young guys coming through the system who could benefit from this. Can you guys imagine Johan Ryno after working with Joey Kocur for 3-4 camps? He already has the size and disposition, and he's young enough to be taught good and proper. Have you seen him go to work on guys? I'd love to see him wearing the Winged Wheel, and see Pronger just try and put a dirty hit on anyone. There is no way Pronger does that and doesn't get a beat down from Boogaard. Pascal Dupuis is glad to have him on the team: A little summary of his skills: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uH0BEoA9hsE Anybody think Pronger (or anyone else for that matter) might think twice about putting a dirty hit on our boys if Boogie was on the bench? I think you're REALLY overestimating the potential value of having an enforcer. While I agree that it would HELP, it would not mean the difference between cheapshots and no cheapshots. Were what you said true, we would NEVER see cheapshots on players from Minnesota, Anaheim, Ottawa, Buffalo etc. Somehow, I just didn't notice Alfredsson getting his ass kicked after he boarded Tallinder. It must have happened during a commercial break, huh? *****Besides Langfield Norton looks like he brought the most to the table, the numbers speak for themselves my friends Yes, the stats speak for themselves--all of them brought precisely nothing. What a silly post. Because Norton had one assist, you say he 'brought more to the table' than those who had zero points? Apparently Langfeld brought more to the table--and he brought NOTHING to the table--because he scored more than Norton, eh? By the way--Matt Ellis scored a goal which was disallowed because the ref had already blown the whistle. Had he scored that goal, would he have become more valuable than Brad Norton? Edited July 20, 2007 by Crymson Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FinRedWing 172 Report post Posted July 20, 2007 Nobody like that will ever be available! Why? Because their teams know how valuable they are. You have to find these guys BEFORE they reach that level, and turn them into something. Thats why you take chances with physical, tough players on your 4th line. Would you have wanted Moen back when he was on Chicago? I highly doubt it, nor would probably 95% of the other posters. Touche,touchdown & a home run! No wonder Crymson didn't reply to this. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sticknmove 0 Report post Posted July 20, 2007 "Yes, the stats speak for themselves--all of them brought precisely nothing. What a silly post. Because Norton had one assist, you say he 'brought more to the table' than those who had zero points? " You are oblivious. The stats prove to everyone on the forum screaming about "wasting a spot on a 'enforcer'" is pointless and takes away from point production. This proves that assumption wrong you tool. "blah blah blah *snide comment* more to the table?" shut up, when it comes to the job of an ENFORCER (hence the topic of the thread) Norton did a fine job of it without being a liability. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mickeyisms Rule! 0 Report post Posted July 20, 2007 "Yes, the stats speak for themselves--all of them brought precisely nothing. What a silly post. Because Norton had one assist, you say he 'brought more to the table' than those who had zero points? " You are oblivious. The stats prove to everyone on the forum screaming about "wasting a spot on a 'enforcer'" is pointless and takes away from point production. This proves that assumption wrong you tool. "blah blah blah *snide comment* more to the table?" shut up, when it comes to the job of an ENFORCER (hence the topic of the thread) Norton did a fine job of it without being a liability. The problem with pointing at that stat and saying that he wasn't a liability doesn't even begin to convince me that Norton wasn't a liability. When he was in the box for a stupid penalty, how many times did the Wings get scored on? How many times did the opposing team look at him and his lack of skills in the fighting department and NOT become intimidated? If he wasn't looked at as a liability by Babcock, why was he started at a forward position when he played defense in Grand Rapids? But we're not debating Norton here, are we? You have your view that the Wings need an enforcer. You are entitled to that opinion. I am of the opinion that, while it would be nice to have a dedicated enforcer, it is not necessary to win and succeed. Time will bear out the validity of these statements, eother for or against my position, but you, sir, madame, or whatever you are, will not convince me that it is a requirement of winning to have success throughout the season and the playoffs. One more thing, learn to use the quote feature. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
therock48880 14 Report post Posted July 20, 2007 (edited) Yikes, looks like we need a reality check after reading some recent posts in here, at least in terms of setting expectations. This team, nor any other team in the NHL, is not going to make the SCF year in and year out. I’m all for setting lofty goals to achieve, but we have to have some realism here. We often want too much, too fast. A lot of us are ridiculously spoiled as a fan base, and there is no way of sugarcoating it. I don’t care who you are in this forum, if I’m your best buddy or talked to you through an IM or e-mail or if you don’t like me. A LOT OF US ARE SPOILED by this team, myself included. That’s not always a bad thing, but when you let that get your expectations to be unrealistic (like expecting to win the Cup year in and year out), it’s a problem. If we had taken a poll of every single person in the Red Wing organization before last season began and asked them what their goal was heading into the season, the vast majority, if not all, of them would have said to win the Cup. I seriously doubt if any of them would have said "We need to make it to the Western Conference Finals". So, if that was their goal and they didn't accomplish it, it's a failure. Yes, some very positive things came out of last season's playoff run; most notably their grittiness in the early rounds of the playoffs, but I assume that pretty much every person in the organization would not call last season a success. It has nothing to do with being spoiled fans, it has to do with setting goals and determining if you meet them. In life if you don't meet your goals, you've failed. And THAT is what's causing a lot of the arguments on here right now. Many people are content with last season and believe that things were good enough while many (myself included) don't view last year's run as a success and think upgrades need to be made to make the next step. P.S. I never said I expected the Wings to win the Cup every year. I said that was the GOAL. If goals aren't met, it's a failure, imo. Edited July 20, 2007 by therock48880 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites