McAmmond hurt bad/Concussed

[Opie 308]

Depends on your point of view. With respect to matters that I have no exposure to, I wouldn't pretend to have an opinion. Just because Lidstrom is a star player in the NHL, I wouldn't, by default, conclude that his knowledge of the game is greater than mine. Not saying it isn't, but I wouldn't default there "just because of who he is." I have played for many years at very high levels and these days I play recreationally and spend a lot of time watching the NHL and other levels of hockey. I think watching games gives you a different perspective than playing and you may be able to pick up things that you wouldn't if you are in the middle of the action.

Again, my only conclusion is that I wouldn't simply bow down and accept someone else's opinion over mine just because of who they are.

For me, his opinion and what he said was enough to change my opinion. I know the high level of play you have been involved in and the rec leagues must have given you a greater idea of how the NHL game is played and the changes that have occurred over the last 15. However, whenever I get expert opinions on something I consider their past, their motivation in making the statement, and whether or not they are a reliable source.

All of those criteria were met, so therefore I decided to apply what he was saying to my own thoughts and my opinion changed. If I had known we were going to debate the way I formulate opinions I would have made all of this clearer in my first post. That way I didn't have you thinking I just blindly accept his opinion.

The main reason I even posted about changing my opinion was that I had been one of the biggest and loudest people about the wings not needing an enforcer, mainly because I thought an enforcer would not slow these hits down.

Then someone who is involved in the NHL, has been for 15 straight years, is on the ice year in and year out, and I am guessing has a pretty good feel for what is going on when he is on the ice, says enforcers would help, I have to believe him.

If you don't because of your extensive knowledge, than fine, however I do not have that knowledge so I will go with Nick on this one!

[Kutcher 0]

Oh, you are right about the banning comments. That's absurd.

IMO, this issue is bigger than Steve Downie. The league has an opportunity, right now in the preseason to set the tone for headhunting. Don't give Downie a suspension because he's Downie. Forget all that right now. Suspend him for 10 regular season games. Let it be known that you throw that type of hit, get slapped with a Match Penalty, you're sitting 10. I don't care if the guy has a concussion or he gets up and skates away. Take the extent of the injury out of the equation on these types of hits. Its a headhunting hit. Don't compare it to hits from behind or sucker punches to the face. That's an entirely different animal. Stick a 10 gamer on him and much like diving and the instigator (ughhh) rule, make it increasing with each infraction. 20 games next, 40 games next, etcc...It will work itself out.

Look at the NFL, brutal, violent collisions. Those guys have helmets with face shields on them that make our helmets look like paper mache. They don't let you lead with your helmet and they protect their players from direct blows to the head. Why don't we?

You make a very good point.

[Hank 0]

That's 1 playoff game. There is a huge difference between a meaningless regular season game and a playoff game.

Not only that but that elbow, in the manor of which it was delivered. was safer than Downie's hit.

Like Gordie said, Downie should get a minimum of 10 games. I'd go for 20 if I were the league and here's why:

Downie is a nobody in the league. The NHL nor the Flyers will pay a hefty price with him gone for 1/4 of the season and it sets a very loud tone that the league will not tolerate this kind of hit.

If they don't come down HARD, then what happens when someone does this to Crosby? The league will suffer greatly if their best and most marketable player is out for a long period of time (or even his career).

Downie is the perfect goat to make an example of. It's not like the league is tossing a player of Heatley or Phaneuf type ilk.

Besides, the kid is an a**hole. Nobody deserves a hefty suspension more than him.

Edited September 27, 2007 by Hank

[Kutcher 0]

Not only that but that elbow, in the manor of which it was delivered. was safer than Downie's hit.

Like Gordie said, Downie should get a minimum of 10 games. I'd go for 20 if I were the league and here's why:

Downie is a nobody in the league. The NHL nor the Flyers will pay a hefty price with him gone for 1/4 of the season and it sets a very loud tone that the league will not tolerate this kind of hit.

If they don't come down HARD, then what happens when someone does this to Crosby? The league will suffer greatly if their best and most marketable player is out for a long period of time (or even his career).

Downie is the perfect goat to make an example of. It's not like the league is tossing a player of Heatley or Phaneuf type ilk.

Besides, the kid is an a**hole. Nobody deserves a hefty suspension more than him.

If the league wanted to make an impact then they would suspend one of the premier players for something like this. Not a "no body" like Downie.

[Hank 0]

If the league wanted to make an impact then they would suspend one of the premier players for something like this. Not a "no body" like Downie.

It all depends on how you look at it. First, the NHL would never suspend a premier player for a great amount of time. If Crosby or Thornton delivered this hit, they'd probably get no more than 5 games.

And even though Downie is a nobody it will still send a loud message to the entire league that head-hunting is not acceptable. Remember, it's not the star or elite players that are giving out hits like this, it's the 3rd line pluggers that are; guys like Latendresse, Colby Armstrong and Downie. It will send a very loud message to the minority that loves giving these types of hits out.

I say make a loud statement and stick by it. Downie should be suspended for 10 games and all 4 games they play against the Sens this season (including playoffs if the meet in the spring).

[Kutcher 0]

It all depends on how you look at it. First, the NHL would never suspend a premier player for a great amount of time. If Crosby or Thornton delivered this hit, they'd probably get no more than 5 games.

And even though Downie is a nobody it will still send a loud message to the entire league that head-hunting is not acceptable. Remember, it's not the star or elite players that are giving out hits like this, it's the 3rd line pluggers that are; guys like Latendresse, Colby Armstrong and Downie. It will send a very loud message to the minority that loves giving these types of hits out.

I say make a loud statement and stick by it. Downie should be suspended for 10 games and all 4 games they play against the Sens this season (including playoffs if the meet in the spring).

I see your point. But why not send a stronger message league wide to guys like Pronger who is an elite player that delivers just as many cheapies as one of those 3rd line "pluggers". The league needs to learn how to hand out the same suspension based on the type of play not on the players involved. It's retarded that a guy like Pronger can go around injuring guys left right and center. But a guy like Downie f***s up once and its game over?

[Guest Yzer19]

I see your point. But why not send a stronger message league wide to guys like Pronger who is an elite player that delivers just as many cheapies as one of those 3rd line "pluggers". The league needs to learn how to hand out the same suspension based on the type of play not on the players involved. It's retarded that a guy like Pronger can go around injuring guys left right and center. But a guy like Downie f***s up once and its game over?

Downie shouldn't get away with it and get a lesser sentence just because he's a 3rd line plugger. The league needs to send a message to it's 3rd line pluggers that this kind of play is not exceptable, not to it's star players. It's more often the 3rd line pluggers that do this sort of thing than the star players.

[Kutcher 0]

I'm not suggesting that he get away with it. A 1 or 2 game suspension is fitting. If he gets upwards of 20 games thats saying he's a repeat offender like Simon and that his action was just as bad. Which it clearly was not, the injury was worse but the intent of Simon was way clearer and more dangerous than that of Downie.

[Curban915 0]

^^^

i agree one or two is fine. This was not as even as bad from the looks of the hit not after affect then what pronger did to homer.

Kutcher

Also i'm an Nhl GM that was not boarding. And am glad you dont ref NHL games. Wait are you Mick Magoo?

[toby91_ca 620]

^^^

i agree one or two is fine.

If he gets 1 or 2 games, it will just further prove how much of a joke the NHL is when is comes to this type of thing.

[Kutcher 0]

^^^

i agree one or two is fine. This was not as even as bad from the looks of the hit not after affect then what pronger did to homer.

Kutcher

Also i'm an Nhl GM that was not boarding. And am glad you dont ref NHL games. Wait are you Mick Magoo?

I'm sure buddy. thats nice but under the rules its classified as boarding. It's the Referee's discretion to make that choice. But the hit wasn't as bad as everyone is making it. It is exactly the same as one of the most noted hits in hockey. When Wendel Clark layed out Bruce Bell. Those hits are the same and from what i remember Clark did not recieve a suspension.

[eva unit zero 271]

I'm sure buddy. thats nice but under the rules its classified as boarding. It's the Referee's discretion to make that choice. But the hit wasn't as bad as everyone is making it. It is exactly the same as one of the most noted hits in hockey. When Wendel Clark layed out Bruce Bell. Those hits are the same and from what i remember Clark did not recieve a suspension.

Hmm...the

looks more like a flying elbow to the head that blindsides McAmmond, while Clark's hit on Bell was a shoulder from the front that ell saw but couldn't avoid. Yes, Clark left his feet during the hit, but that is the only similarity at all. Downie hit McAmmond after McAmmond had passed the puck in front. McAmmond was watching the play and had no reason to expect a flying elbow to the head. Bell, on the other hand, was the puck carrier and had not passed it, nor was he trying to, when Clark hit him. Clark's hit was a solid, clean check while Downie's was a horrible cheap shot.

EDIT: Oh, and BTW...it could have been called boarding or charging. But either way, there was clear intent to injure and therefore Downie should have received a match penalty.

Edited September 27, 2007 by eva unit zero

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I'm sure buddy. thats nice but under the rules its classified as boarding. It's the Referee's discretion to make that choice. But the hit wasn't as bad as everyone is making it. It is exactly the same as one of the most noted hits in hockey. When Wendel Clark layed out Bruce Bell. Those hits are the same and from what i remember Clark did not recieve a suspension.

Kutcher you are absolutely right that the hit by Clark was just like the Downie hit. Other than the hits being the same, the rest of it you're absolutely dead wrong about.

You're taking a snapshot of 2 completely different periods in time. How much concussion talk was there back then compared to now? How much bigger and faster have the players gotten from then to now?

The fact that Clark wasn't suspended has absolutely no bearing on what's transpiring now. Just a couple years ago you couldn't make a 2-line pass, now you can. Do you see where i'm going with this?

What would Wayne Maki be staring at now had he clubbed Ted Green in today's NHL? Probably attempted murder is my guess. My point is what was acceptable at one time has no bearing on what's deemed acceptable today. Please stop referencing s*** that happened years ago to make your point. Hell, way back when you could grab your six shooter, step outside the bar and shoot it out with the guy who dared call you a cheat. Can you do that now?

[Kutcher 0]

Hmm...the

looks more like a flying elbow to the head that blindsides McAmmond, while Clark's hit on Bell was a shoulder from the front that ell saw but couldn't avoid. Yes, Clark left his feet during the hit, but that is the only similarity at all. Downie hit McAmmond after McAmmond had passed the puck in front. McAmmond was watching the play and had no reason to expect a flying elbow to the head. Bell, on the other hand, was the puck carrier and had not passed it, nor was he trying to, when Clark hit him. Clark's hit was a solid, clean check while Downie's was a horrible cheap shot.

and it wasn't a flying elbow as you call it. it was a shoulder to the chin. Downie's skates were still on the ice during contact.

WOW .. I forget who was on XM today when I was listening .. Might have been rossy, but they were saying how this whole thing was blown out of proportion and that the hits were no different. They said anything more than a couple games was overkill.

I can't believe the over reaction that the is taking place over it. Was the hit over agressive? absolutely. was it that bad? definitely not.

Those hits are very similar.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Gordie's absolute last comments on this

1. If you think this is the most heinous hit ever and Downie should be banned, you need to get out more.

2. If you think he should get 20+ games, you are a strict mo-fo!!!

3. If you think he should get 1-2 games, I want you as my judge when I get into some bad s***.

4. He jumped off the ice surface. Stop debating it. The last time I saw something rocket away from the earth like that it had USA painted on the side and is currently in orbit around the planet.

5. Elbow, no elbow? That's the peas and not the steak folks. It was headhunting. Whether its done with a shoulder, an elbow or Rob Blake's hind end, shots to the head are going to ruin our sport. Headhunting = automatic suspension.

6. The severity of the victim's injuries having any bearing on the punishment needs to go the way of the dinosaurs. What's the difference between me breaking your face and trying to break your face? Punishment the same regardless.

7. What was kosher in 1973, or 1986 or 2001 doesn't mean things don't change. We thought the world was flat at one point didn't we? Here and now is what we need to deal with.

8. Get rid of the goddamned instigator rule. Just do it already Gary. There's no face left to be saved. Take your lumps.

9. Whether you are a 4th line plugger or a 90 point player, everybody is still just a hockey player and should be subject to equal punishment under the rules.

10. Preseason, regular season, playoffs. No sugar coating for anybody. Punishments stay the same no matter what time of year it is.

I'm sure there's more but I can't count past 10 when i'm supposed to be at work, you know, working.

and it wasn't a flying elbow as you call it. it was a shoulder to the chin. Downie's skates were still on the ice during contact.

WOW .. I forget who was on XM today when I was listening .. Might have been rossy, but they were saying how this whole thing was blown out of proportion and that the hits were no different. They said anything more than a couple games was overkill.

I can't believe the over reaction that the is taking place over it. Was the hit over agressive? absolutely. was it that bad? definitely not.

Those hits are very similar.

GODDAMMIT KUTCHER, F-ING CUT IT OUT. GO TO YOUTUBE, STOP THE VIDEO PRIOR TO THE CONTACT. DOWNEY IS A CLEAR 3-5 INCHES OFF THE ICE PRIOR TO ANY CONTACT. IT'S VIDEO. IT'S CONCLUSIVE. YES, I'M FRIGGIN YELLING AT YOU! STOP F-ING DISTORTING THIS ABSOLUTE TRUTH! HE LEFT THE ICE PRIOR TO CONTACT. IF YOU SAY DIFFERENTLY ONE MORE TIME I'M GOING TO LEAP THROUGH THIS MONITOR AND DO SOMETHING IMPOLITE TO YOU!

[Curban915 0]

Gordie's absolute last comments on this

1. If you think this is the most heinous hit ever and Downie should be banned, you need to get out more.

2. If you think he should get 20+ games, you are a strict mo-fo!!!

3. If you think he should get 1-2 games, I want you as my judge when I get into some bad s***.

4. He jumped off the ice surface. Stop debating it. The last time I saw something rocket away from the earth like that it had USA painted on the side and is currently in orbit around the planet.

5. Elbow, no elbow? That's the peas and not the steak folks. It was headhunting. Whether its done with a shoulder, an elbow or Rob Blake's hind end, shots to the head are going to ruin our sport. Headhunting = automatic suspension.

6. The severity of the victim's injuries having any bearing on the punishment needs to go the way of the dinosaurs. What's the difference between me breaking your face and trying to break your face? Punishment the same regardless.

7. What was kosher in 1973, or 1986 or 2001 doesn't mean things don't change. We thought the world was flat at one point didn't we? Here and now is what we need to deal with.

8. Get rid of the goddamned instigator rule. Just do it already Gary. There's no face left to be saved. Take your lumps.

9. Whether you are a 4th line plugger or a 90 point player, everybody is still just a hockey player and should be subject to equal punishment under the rules.

10. Preseason, regular season, playoffs. No sugar coating for anybody. Punishments stay the same no matter what time of year it is.

I'm sure there's more but I can't count past 10 when i'm supposed to be at work, you know, working.

GODDAMMIT KUTCHER, F-ING CUT IT OUT. GO TO YOUTUBE, STOP THE VIDEO PRIOR TO THE CONTACT. DOWNEY IS A CLEAR 3-5 INCHES OFF THE ICE PRIOR TO ANY CONTACT. IT'S VIDEO. IT'S CONCLUSIVE. YES, I'M FRIGGIN YELLING AT YOU! STOP F-ING DISTORTING THIS ABSOLUTE TRUTH! HE LEFT THE ICE PRIOR TO CONTACT. IF YOU SAY DIFFERENTLY ONE MORE TIME I'M GOING TO LEAP THROUGH THIS MONITOR AND DO SOMETHING IMPOLITE TO YOU!

GST

relax your talking to Mick Magoo he cant see.

[Kutcher 0]

Gordie's absolute last comments on this

1. If you think this is the most heinous hit ever and Downie should be banned, you need to get out more.

2. If you think he should get 20+ games, you are a strict mo-fo!!!

3. If you think he should get 1-2 games, I want you as my judge when I get into some bad s***.

4. He jumped off the ice surface. Stop debating it. The last time I saw something rocket away from the earth like that it had USA painted on the side and is currently in orbit around the planet.

5. Elbow, no elbow? That's the peas and not the steak folks. It was headhunting. Whether its done with a shoulder, an elbow or Rob Blake's hind end, shots to the head are going to ruin our sport. Headhunting = automatic suspension.

6. The severity of the victim's injuries having any bearing on the punishment needs to go the way of the dinosaurs. What's the difference between me breaking your face and trying to break your face? Punishment the same regardless.

7. What was kosher in 1973, or 1986 or 2001 doesn't mean things don't change. We thought the world was flat at one point didn't we? Here and now is what we need to deal with.

8. Get rid of the goddamned instigator rule. Just do it already Gary. There's no face left to be saved. Take your lumps.

9. Whether you are a 4th line plugger or a 90 point player, everybody is still just a hockey player and should be subject to equal punishment under the rules.

10. Preseason, regular season, playoffs. No sugar coating for anybody. Punishments stay the same no matter what time of year it is.

I'm sure there's more but I can't count past 10 when i'm supposed to be at work, you know, working.

Well said. I'd be hard pressed to disagree with that post.

GODDAMMIT KUTCHER, F-ING CUT IT OUT. GO TO YOUTUBE, STOP THE VIDEO PRIOR TO THE CONTACT. DOWNEY IS A CLEAR 3-5 INCHES OFF THE ICE PRIOR TO ANY CONTACT. IT'S VIDEO. IT'S CONCLUSIVE. YES, I'M FRIGGIN YELLING AT YOU! STOP F-ING DISTORTING THIS ABSOLUTE TRUTH! HE LEFT THE ICE PRIOR TO CONTACT. IF YOU SAY DIFFERENTLY ONE MORE TIME I'M GOING TO LEAP THROUGH THIS MONITOR AND DO SOMETHING IMPOLITE TO YOU!

i'll just decline to comment then.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

GST

relax your talking to Mick Magoo he cant see.

You may be right my friend.

Hey everybody, someone on the internet was kind enough to post their tivo'd version of this in slo-mo. A bit grainy but pretty easy to see downie leave the ice surface prior to any contact at all. Ok, Kutcher, Mr. Warren Commission himself, deny that 2nd shooter!

[eva unit zero 271]

and it wasn't a flying elbow as you call it. it was a shoulder to the chin. Downie's skates were still on the ice during contact.

WOW .. I forget who was on XM today when I was listening .. Might have been rossy, but they were saying how this whole thing was blown out of proportion and that the hits were no different. They said anything more than a couple games was overkill.

I can't believe the over reaction that the is taking place over it. Was the hit over agressive? absolutely. was it that bad? definitely not.

Those hits are very similar.

Downie was NOT still on the ice when he hit McAmmond...he jumped at him. He led with his forearm/elbow. And the fact that it was a late hit makes a HUGE difference. Clark hit the puck carrier. Downie did not.

[Kp-Wings 3]

Notice how all the Senators players went and defended McAmmond there after the hit. Hmm...

As for Downie: he has a reputation for this kind of dirty play, starting back during his feuds with Akim Aliu. I'm not surprised by this whole thing very much. It really makes you wonder why the Flyers even used a 1st round pick on him: he has very little offensive ability at all. All he really does is trash talk.

Personally, I hate Downie. It was a bad hit, and I'll leave it at that...

Edited September 27, 2007 by Kp-Wings

[sticknmove 0]

I think the NHL needs to do it's own policing by having stricter suspensions. Look what happend when tough guy Bertuzzi tried to do the policing for his team. He ended up breaking the guys neck, not intentionally, but it still happend.

Wow people like you are ruining the game. To end exaples of things like the Bertuzzi incident you get rid of the instigator penalty twit. And your comments "if Lidstrom said wear figure skates would you" or whatever you are talking about make you sound like a bigger ****** bad then before. First, Lidstrom has forgotten more about hockey then any 10 of us combined, so shut up, you have absolutely no chance of arguing you are right and Lidstrom is wrong about ANYTHING that has to do with ice, skates, a puck, and sticks.

Downie should get 3 games, anything more is a joke. Hockey is a contact sport, his hit was dirty, big deal. His worse punishment, I can gauruntee you is going to come to him on the ice, I don't know when but this guy is a marked man around the league and that I feel bad for him, he does deserve what he has coming though.

Watch the reaction in the clip below, I cant put my finger on it but somehthing is different, the Senators reaction to the hit compared to the Wings when Lebda, Homer, Franzen, Williams, Hasek all got run bad is different. WHAT CAN IT BE THOUGH??? I dont know but someone might be able to help me out

Edited September 27, 2007 by sticknmove

[Guest Yzer19]

Wow people like you are ruining the game. To end exaples of things like the Bertuzzi incident you get rid of the instigator penalty twit. And your comments "if Lidstrom said wear figure skates would you" or whatever you are talking about make you sound like a bigger ****** bad then before. First, Lidstrom has forgotten more about hockey then any 10 of us combined, so shut up, you have absolutely no chance of arguing you are right and Lidstrom is wrong about ANYTHING that has to do with ice, skates, a puck, and sticks.

Downie should get 3 games, anything more is a joke. Hockey is a contact sport, his hit was dirty, big deal. His worse punishment, I can gauruntee you is going to come to him on the ice, I don't know when but this guy is a marked man around the league and that I feel bad for him, he does deserve what he has coming though.

No, it's players like Moore, Downie, and other dirty players that are ruining the game. Go back and read Toby's posts. He explained it best. Of course Lidstrom knows more about hockey than me, but that doesn't me that he is right about every single thing he says. I would say the same thing about Gordie Howe, or Mario, or even Gretzky. I respect their opinions, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with everything they say.

Anyways I agree with Lidstrom that the NHL needs to crackdown on headshots, but I don't agree with the need for enforcers. Other leagues don't have enforcers and they doing better than the NHL. Look at the NFL. That is a contact sport too, but they don't have enforcers.

[sticknmove 0]

You are lost my friend, the NHL is what it is. I suggest you get into another sport or wait for the Olympics bro. This is as watered down as the NHL will ever be, and mark my words in 2 years or less the instigator rule is gone, because hits like this and Downies, Simons, etc.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

No, it's players like Moore, Downie, and other dirty players that are ruining the game. Go back and read Toby's posts. He explained it best. Of course Lidstrom knows more about hockey than me, but that doesn't me that he is right about every single thing he says. I would say the same thing about Gordie Howe, or Mario, or even Gretzky. I respect their opinions, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with everything they say.

Anyways I agree with Lidstrom that the NHL needs to crackdown on headshots, but I don't agree with the need for enforcers. Other leagues don't have enforcers and they doing better than the NHL. Look at the NFL. That is a contact sport too, but they don't have enforcers.

Nothing to do with your post, but in your sig, how is Lidstrom the captain of a team with Howe, Abel and Lindsey on it?

[Kutcher 0]

You may be right my friend.

Hey everybody, someone on the internet was kind enough to post their tivo'd version of this in slo-mo. A bit grainy but pretty easy to see downie leave the ice surface prior to any contact at all. Ok, Kutcher, Mr. Warren Commission himself, deny that 2nd shooter!

Thank you for that vid. It is the only one I have seen to show that he did leave his feet prior to impact.

Still doesn't change the fact that he doesn't deserve more than 3-5 games.

Notice how all the Senators players went and defended McAmmond there after the hit. Hmm...

As for Downie: he has a reputation for this kind of dirty play, starting back during his feuds with Akim Aliu. I'm not surprised by this whole thing very much. It really makes you wonder why the Flyers even used a 1st round pick on him: he has very little offensive ability at all. All he really does is trash talk.

Personally, I hate Downie. It was a bad hit, and I'll leave it at that...

Personally I think you're an idiot. Have you ever watched him play? The kid is full of talent. FYI he made the Canadian World Junior team and helped them win gold. They don't take talentless players for the Canadian World Juniors, they are the cream of the crop of junior hockey.