A new Blue Line Comics Cartoon

[Gizmo 21]

The Braves used to have a screaming Native warrior as their logo and changed it. And if 75% of Native Americans said that they were okay with it then 25% didn't. I don't see how some people think that it's okay to make cartoony logos of Natives when it would never fly with Hispanics, Asians, or other races. You can get fired from a life long radio career for calling a basketball player a nappie headed ho, but the Red Skins logo is just fine? In our nation's capital no less.

Again, you're making a sweeping generalization and saying that ANY use is the same as using "Redskins" or "Chief Wahoo". So are you saying that the local Chippewa tribe nearest CMU is wrong and should be offended? Are they too stupid to realize that they should be offended? Edited November 8, 2007 by Gizmo

[esteef 2,679]

Some food for thought on why the Redskins are still called the Redskins:

"The Washington Redskins are reluctant to change names because it will cost them more than a few draft picks. If they repudiate the name they've had since George Preston Marshall changed it from Boston Braves to Boston Redskins in 1933, it follows that they'll have to stop licensing and selling Redskins merchandise, which usually ranks in the top 10 of team-gear sales across all sports.

Worse, they'll probably have to spend millions suing the renegade dealers who start selling counterfeit stuff.

Hey, nobody said a corporate conscience would be cheap." -- Seattle Post Intelligencer column from 2003

Follow the money I guess as always.

esteef

[Rob the Badger 0]

Some people would consider the cartoon depiction of one of their people as demeaning. Many consider Cheif Wahoo to be very demeaning.

I'm not saying that every hockey fan should run out into the streets and demand that these teams change their images. (Although it would be cool to see any show of unity that strong... we can't even get people together to get Bettman fired). I'm just saying that if you wouldn't use other races in this fashion, then you should use Natives either. That was the point of the last line in the cartoon.

A lot of people don't care. It's just an icon or a symbol... a harmless logo. It's not important, etc etc. But it would be if it were any other minority.

[Echolalia 2,961]

How is this degrading to Native Americans at all???

Last time I checked team names and/or logos are created to be intimidating and are selected for their traits in strength, agility, speed, and various other manly, intimidating features. If anything, having Native Americans represent a team is a compliment.

[HOCKEY MATTERS 167]

It's a good thing that red-winged blackbirds fly south before hockey season starts....or we might have to name our team the Detroit Ice Workers local #19. I feel if you are not a member of the "offended" group you should mind your own business. Not a flame, just my opinion.

[Rob the Badger 0]

Again, you're making a sweeping generalization and saying that ANY use is the same as using "Redskins" or "Chief Wahoo". So are you saying that the local Chippewa tribe nearest CMU is wrong and should be offended? Are they too stupid to realize that they are being offended?

Don't put words in my mouth. I know full well that the Chips have a long lasting relationship with tribe. There is a difference between college and professional sports. Many colleges have relationships with local tribes, that is different. I am from Michigan. I am a Michigan native. I know how to "Go Fire Up Chips". Mt. Pleasant is a lovely place, except in the winter.

I didn't any light on the college issue. The NCAA is already doing that and is making some exceptions from what I understand for colleges who have local tribe support. I think that what the Chips and Seminoles and other tribes have with universities is a lot different from Cheif Wahoo and the Red Skins organization.

[esteef 2,679]

Just wait until animals catch wind of their names and likenesses being used for sports teams! All hell's gonna break loose!!!!

Cheers!

esteef

[Rob the Badger 0]

It's a good thing that red-winged blackbirds fly south before hockey season starts....or we might have to name our team the Detroit Ice Workers local #19. I feel if you are not a member of the "offended" group you should mind your own business. Not a flame, just my opinion.

Ice workers aren't a race. Oilers and Steelers are not a race. Teams that have names like that, have them to identify with the local flavor of their cities. Oil in Alberta. Steel in Pittsburgh. Cowboys in Dallas. Oil in Houston. etc. They're not races. There is a difference between being called the Pittsburgh Steelers and the Washington Whitebreads. If it is not okay to have other ethic races portrayed in this manner, then it shouldn't be okay for Natives to be portrayed this way too.

I actually just got an email from someone saying that they're a native that works at a casino in the upper part of the mitten saying.... "We don't mind the logos so much as having our land ripped from us, but we're getting it back bit by bit with our casinos and forclosures, so it's all good."

I don't care who you are, that's funny.

Just wait until animals catch wind of their names and likenesses being used for sports teams! All hell's gonna break loose!!!!

Cheers!

esteef

Tim Bedore already thinks that there is a global animal conspiracy. I am beginning to agree with him. If you know about the conspiracy then you know why I am leary of squirrels.

[Gizmo 21]

I'm just saying that if you wouldn't use other races in this fashion, then you should use Natives either. That was the point of the last line in the cartoon.

OK, so let me ask you this? Why should this concept be limited to racial groups instead of other minority cultural groups that we also use in team names? Why is "Fighting Sioux" different than "Fighting Irish"?

[lfd250 1]

Dear Detroit,

Please stop using the winged wheel as it hurts my families feelings.

Thank You,

Michelin Man.

I've always found it funny that people never look at both sides of the coin.

Side one you can't use the Indian as a mascot it is a disgrace to the history of the Indians. We are a proud people that deserve respect for the land you took....

Side two Come Down to the (insert Indian tribe name) Casino. We are so proud of our history we may or may not have a 10'x10' room explaining our history and what our tribe has gone through. We do not follow America laws (On Indian land at Soring Eagle they were selling fireworks illigal in MI) if you break the law on our land the only process is Indian law. ( Most have their own Police patroling the grounds) You may work for us, but if something is missing a non Indian person will be blamed before one of their own. ( Father in law use to work for Casino.) We all have our pround history I have Native American in me, (not much, but it's there as is most) But please don't tell me they are angry because teams are using it, they're made because they get nothing from it. (My own feelings, no proof)

[Gizmo 21]

I'm just saying that if you wouldn't use other races in this fashion, then you should use Natives either. That was the point of the last line in the cartoon.

Well, then I think you weren't clear enough in the nature of your objection. Also, seeing as it's not practical to put photos on a jersey, what's your criteria for deciding what's too cartoonish? Should humanoid mascots be stricken entirely just to try and avoid offense?

A lot of people don't care. It's just an icon or a symbol... a harmless logo. It's not important, etc etc. But it would be if it were any other minority.

"Racial" minority, perhaps... but (as mentioned previously) there are plenty of other cultural minorities (some that historically have faced a great deal of discrimination in this country) that we use as team logos. Please help us understand why these should be treated any differently? Edited November 8, 2007 by Gizmo

[eva unit zero 271]

Here's the solution.

Washington's new logo:

Cleveland's new logo:

There, now nobody will be offended.

[lfd250 1]

May be Washington wanted the building!

[vangvace 12]

The Braves used to have a screaming Native warrior as their logo and changed it. And if 75% of Native Americans said that they were okay with it then 25% didn't. I don't see how some people think that it's okay to make cartoony logos of Natives when it would never fly with Hispanics, Asians, or other races. You can get fired from a life long radio career for calling a basketball player a nappie headed ho, but the Red Skins logo is just fine? In our nation's capital no less.

So it's ok to have a native american themed mascot as long as it's not facial?

Secondly, Hispanic is an ethic group, not a race. Just like the fighting Irish. So why is it ok for the Celtics and Notre Dame again?

[Third Man In 2,091]

Good topic. On one hand, if a tribe clearly supports the affiliation (as with FSU and the Seminole tribe), this seems perfectly okay.

But what about other instances--where do we draw the line? If 75% of Native Americans don't think "Washington Redskins" is offensive, that still means that 25% DO think its offensive. It's not fair to sweep this sizable number of peoples' feelings under the rug and complain about the PC police and people being overly sensitive. This isn't something trivial, like if you like Vancouver's new uniforms or not. This involves a legacy of racism, discrimination, and colonization.

Do you all remember the University of Northern Colorado intramural basketball team, the Fighting Whites?

When this came out, many whites were amused, and some were offended. I think its funny, but I don't think I'd be nearly as inclined to think so if it recalled a similar legacy of oppression.

Edit: image

Edited November 8, 2007 by Third Man In

[Chelios57 31]

Yes, I am sure that there are many Native Americans who think that being called a "Red Skin" is just incredibly flattering. There is a big difference between being called a Canadien, a product of Canada, and having your tribe turned into a cartoon character like Cheif Wahoo. We have an American team in the AHL called the Americans, they're from America. Detroiters are a class of people from multiple ethnic and social backgrounds. There is a difference.

Oh, and if you don't like the cartoons you don't have to read them. I always label the threads that I start with a comic. It's not like you were tricked into opening it. If you think that the Blue Line is the worst cartoon ever, you've never stumbled across the "Family Circus".

I love the blue line comics. I read them all the time.

This one however was about as good as Dan Cloutier.

[SweWings 45]

Just wait until animals catch wind of their names and likenesses being used for sports teams! All hell's gonna break loose!!!!

Cheers!

esteef

If there are any avid viewers of South Park around here then they'll recognize this scenario.

(Hint: S8E08: ****** and Turd)

Oh and I don't mean to belittle the discussion as I believe it is worth considering...Generally European clubs have been devoid of any kind of mascots or team names or whatever. But for example, my hometown SEL team Frolunda IF changed to the Frolunda Indians. Now this is a Swedish team with, quite likely, no Native American connections...and yet they are now the 'Indians'. How strange isn't that...

[eva unit zero 271]

If there are any avid viewers of South Park around here then they'll recognize this scenario.

(Hint: S8E08: ****** and Turd)

Oh and I don't mean to belittle the discussion as I believe it is worth considering...Generally European clubs have been devoid of any kind of mascots or team names or whatever. But for example, my hometown SEL team Frolunda IF changed to the Frolunda Indians. Now this is a Swedish team with, quite likely, no Native American connections...and yet they are now the 'Indians'. How strange isn't that...

Michigan State SPARTANS sounds like a similar situation. Come to think of it, so does Los Angeles LAKERS, the bastards.

[55fan 5,133]

Coming from Fargo, ND (home of the NDSU Bison, not the UND Fighting Sioux), I'm going to throw in my $.02 here.

Half the problem with the Native names is that people tend to forget that the names are identies of actual people. A school may be named after a Native tribe or given a name like "warriors" or "chiefs" or something closely associated with Native culture, and it may have been to honour those people.

There are lots of teams around here that have Native-associated names. Where it all goes south is when you have a mascot running around behaving like an idiot, or when the other teams' fans start shouting jeers against the school.

My Godson is half Cherokee. Imaging being a kid like him at a game where the people next you are shouting "Indians Suck!" "Scalp the Indians- they did it to us first" or just making fun of your dances, some of which have religious connotations, and dancing around doing the woo-woo-woo-woo thing clapping their hands over their mouths.

Don't take it personally, kid, we're not talking about your people, just the white guys on the field/court/diamond/whatever who are using your people as a mascot.

I once saw an aritcle about a Native guy (and this was some time ago) who made and sold items like pennants and caps for fictional teams like the "Kansas City Caucasions" and "Nashville Negros" to make a point.

UND is going through a huge thing with the name. Most of the whites I know don't see a reason to change. Most of the Natives I know want it changed, not because of the name, but because they can't take their kids to the game without people looking at them funny. They think they're part of the entertainment and expect them to get up and dance or something.

There was a joke a few years back where someone drew a picture of a woman swinging her purse and suggested they rename he team the "Fighting Sue". I guess some women named Sue were offended by that.

[Skiing - Puck 0]

I think the Michigan Huron's would be pretty bad ass too.

Eastern Michigan used to be the Hurons, but got PC'ed into becoming the eagles.

[Gizmo 21]

Coming from Fargo, ND (home of the NDSU Bison, not the UND Fighting Sioux), I'm going to throw in my $.02 here.

Half the problem with the Native names is that people tend to forget that the names are identies of actual people. A school may be named after a Native tribe or given a name like "warriors" or "chiefs" or something closely associated with Native culture, and it may have been to honour those people.

There are lots of teams around here that have Native-associated names. Where it all goes south is when you have a mascot running around behaving like an idiot, or when the other teams' fans start shouting jeers against the school.

My Godson is half Cherokee. Imaging being a kid like him at a game where the people next you are shouting "Indians Suck!" "Scalp the Indians- they did it to us first" or just making fun of your dances, some of which have religious connotations, and dancing around doing the woo-woo-woo-woo thing clapping their hands over their mouths.

It's more than half the problem. I think it's safe to say that most people can agree that folks have a legit bone to pick when it comes to such idiotic displays of mascots and their antics (a la "tomahawk chop", bogus "war hoops") and such. Likewise, I think it's a good idea for teams to steer clear of items or rituals that are sacred and show some respect in that department.

I once saw an aritcle about a Native guy (and this was some time ago) who made and sold items like pennants and caps for fictional teams like the "Kansas City Caucasions" and "Nashville Negros" to make a point.

Well, I'm afraid the guy's object lesson wouldn't work for me. He can sell as many "Kansas City Caucasians" hats as he likes... I don't care, nor would I feel "offended".

UND is going through a huge thing with the name. Most of the whites I know don't see a reason to change. Most of the Natives I know want it changed, not because of the name, but because they can't take their kids to the game without people looking at them funny. They think they're part of the entertainment and expect them to get up and dance or something.

I suppose perception is reality, but to be honest, unless your friends show up in traditional native dress, I think they are likely being a little too self-conscious about people looking at them. I also don't think that those experiences would likely lessen even if the team were called something else. Right or wrong, it's human nature that folks that appear "out of the norm" in a social situation will receive a little more attention. Annually we host a girl's softball team from Puerto Rico and we often take them to our local semi-pro baseball game during their stay here. I can assure you that they get a lot more looks from the crowds at the game and the "normal" fans do... and it isn't because our team is called "The Latinos". Edited November 9, 2007 by Gizmo

[Rob the Badger 0]

All I'm saying with the cartoon is, that if it isn't okay to do with other ethnicities, then it should not be okay to do it with theirs. But like the emailer said to me, "It's all right because they're getting their land back one forclosure at a time with their casinos."

And having the Taj Mahal is a lot more "Indian" than any logo that Cleveland has ever had.

BTW, I love the Dogs of War = Holmstrom sig. That's great.

I love the blue line comics. I read them all the time.

This one however was about as good as Dan Cloutier.

Well, if you've enjoyed 347 out of 348, that's not a bad average. I wasn't trying to be 'funny' with this one. I don't think that there is anything funny with racial issues. That's just me. I'm one guy with one guy's opinions, who happens to draw a little.

[Spinner 6]

What about the Michigan State Spartans or the USC Trojans?

Trojans leak

Seriously tho, shouldn't it be left up to the people of that race in that demographic to decide if they are offended or not?

[HomeNugget 2]

All I'm saying with the cartoon is, that if it isn't okay to do with other ethnicities, then it should not be okay to do it with theirs. But like the emailer said to me, "It's all right because they're getting their land back one forclosure at a time with their casinos."

it seems to be ok though, with teams like the fighting irish and the vikings. and if there was a team called the honkies i would think it was the greatest thing ever.

[Gizmo 21]

All I'm saying with the cartoon is, that if it isn't okay to do with other ethnicities, then it should not be okay to do it with theirs.

Which is true only if it's not OK to do it with any other racial or cultural groups... and that's a notion that I don't think is in evidence as being true.

BTW, I love the Dogs of War = Holmstrom sig. That's great.

Thanks.... I actually lifted it from a great article on Homer that was posted on NHL.com a couple of years ago. Edited November 9, 2007 by Gizmo