Datsyuk sagging at Zetterberg's expense

[PenaltyShot 96 521]

If anything, he's "sagging" for the team's gain. Right now Hank happens to be on fire and scoring goals like nobody's business, and I say that's best for the team. Maybe Datsyuk has come out of the gate a bit slow shots- and goal-wise, but there's still plenty of season left. If (KNOCK ON WOOD) Hank's production levels off later in the season, that will be Datsyuk's chance to pick up the slack.

[Yemack 1]

Enough sugarcoating. Are you ******* retarded?

My patience for stupidity has a limit and its very short.

Go thru the thread and show me where I ever once said Datsyuk has been an ineffective player or hasn't been doing good things on the ice.

I was commenting on his goal scoring numbers going down because he's on the wing, which is not natural for him and that his faceoff percentage is also down because he's not taking them regularly as you need to do if you want to be good at it.

I cannot believe the amount of ******* knuckleheads on here who can comprehend what's being said and divert the thread into umpteen million things that it has nothing to do with nor that I've commented on.

You don't think I watch the games? That doesn't say much for you because of your complete lack of comprehension of what details i'm talking about. If you had the slightest notion, you'd stick with commenting on the things i've brought up such as goals and faceoff percentage. Nowhere have I claimed he's playing poorly.

The "you don't watch the games" comeback is getting as bad as the "you don't play hockey" ones. These are the type of comments made by those that are fresh out of ideas.

Instead of an ignore list, we ought to create a ******* moron list that people can stick other members into. What qualifies you for the list? Bringing up s*** that has nothing to do with the topic at hand, such as Jason Spezza's goals to assist ratio and accusing people of not watching games and attacking players they aren't even attacking. Show me one freaking time I said Datsyuk has played poorly?

I swear to god, all the evidence needed to show why the US educational system is in the tanks can be found right here on this board. You people aren't ******* mating are you? I hope for mankind's sake you aren't.

Ive read whole posts before but reading em again it seems like your argument is that Datsyuk is less effective and we need him to be more productive when going gets tough

So naturally some people are going to think - Wrong, Datsyuk is NOT strugglin at all he is playing very dominantly.

Your argument has some points but when I watch the game I never EVER think that Datsyuk is struggling at all. Maybe I used somewhat strong expression about 'watching the games' and all but it wasn't really directed specifically at you, more like general people who might think otherwise so dont take it so personally. besides you seem to have no problem using strong expression to different opinions so I dont know whats the big deal?

lets just enjoy hawks game and argue over mindless things again.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Ive read whole posts before but reading em again it seems like your argument is that Datsyuk is less effective and we need him to be more productive when going gets tough

So naturally some people are going to think - Wrong, Datsyuk is NOT strugglin at all he is playing very dominantly.

Your argument has some points but when I watch the game I never EVER think that Datsyuk is struggling at all. Maybe I used somewhat strong expression about 'watching the games' and all but it wasn't really directed specifically at you, more like general people who might think otherwise so dont take it so personally. besides you seem to have no problem using strong expression to different opinions so I dont know whats the big deal?

lets just enjoy hawks game and argue over mindless things again.

Well, we all watched the game last night and what did we all see? What I saw was Dats' best scoring chances coming from the slot area where he would typically be were he not playing the left wing boards. Oh yeah, and he did hit the far side post. Of course, the puck didn't go in and it did have to be a nearly perfect shot because he was along the left side wall.

Again, all i'm saying is he may be getting shots but if you look at them, there's a reason why they aren't going in. Taking 40 shots from bad angles on the left side isn't the same as taking 40 shots from a more primed scoring area like the slot. It's only 1 game but in reailty, its now 17 games and only 2 goals for Datsyuk.

[Heaton 1]

Welcome back Yzy or TGO or whatever (134096).

[Guest LivingtheDream]

Zetterberg has centered Dats for most of the period from Dec 23 2006 until today. In that same period, he has been the best player in the NHL. In no period before that was Dats ever even close to the best center in the NHL, let alone best player.

I'm not getting in to all this debate about who plays what, but your analysis is just wrong. Datsyuk was the NHL's offensive player of the month December 2003 and he was just ripping it up - remember the Turco goal, the backhand goal... and all those classic highlights? Many were during a very short period of time during that season. So how is being player of the month jibe with the statement, "In no period before that was Dats ever even close to the best center in the NHL, let alone best player."

[Shockwave180 0]

You people aren't ******* mating are you?

Isn't that redundant?

Couldn't help myself. The f-bomb craze on here is getting old.

[toby91_ca 620]

Its such an insane proposition, comparable to Blues fans in 94 complaining about Adam Oates goal totals while Brett Hull was scoring 86.

I think the year you are referring to is 91...and I'm not sure how it is comparable. That year, Oates had 25 goals and 115 points in 61 games. That would be the equivalent of 34 goals and 155 points over 82 games.

Datsyuk is currently on pace for 10 goals and 77 points. Now, I am not worried about Datsyuk, I think he is playing fine, but if Zetterberg cools off, there may be a problem with scoring if no one else picks it up. 10 goals and 77 points just isn't good enough for Datsyuk, anyone arguing otherwise is misstaken.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I think the year you are referring to is 91...and I'm not sure how it is comparable. That year, Oates had 25 goals and 115 points in 61 games. That would be the equivalent of 34 goals and 155 points over 82 games.

Datsyuk is currently on pace for 10 goals and 77 points. Now, I am not worried about Datsyuk, I think he is playing fine, but if Zetterberg cools off, there may be a problem with scoring if no one else picks it up. 10 goals and 77 points just isn't good enough for Datsyuk, anyone arguing otherwise is misstaken.

Right on! That's what i'm talking about.

[bringback91 2]

So lets's see, I'm the one who resorted to namecalling?

Try rereading your first crazy ass post. You basically accused everyone on this site of worshipping Zetterberg and saying Datsyuk was a bust. Now skim through this thread again and show me where someone said anything close to Datsyuk being a bust. Almost everyone in the thread was saying Datsyuk was doing great and there's no need ot change anything. Yet you flipped out.

Now you're accusing me of bashing Datsyuk during contract negotiations. Wtf do their contracts have to do with this?

You've seriously got such a weird chip on your shoulder about Datsyuk. I can't believe you can't see it. Your first post had almost nothing to do with the topic of this thread. Neither do their contracts.

since then you've managed to make a reasoned, on topic, informed response. Not so hard, is it?

Go back and read your first post. It was a massive off topic rant.

I'm not high and mighty. I'm just sick of people flying off the handle if you say anything even remotely critical of Datsyuk or Hasek, or whoever else some members have an irrational love for. This is a hockey forum and Gordie brought up a relatively harmless point about switching Datsyuk back to center, and you and a couple other people go apes***.

While a bit off topic, but I'm sure Gordo knew it would eventually end up here anyway, I don't see anything in 134096's post that is crazy ass, flipping out, apes***. massive off topic rant. Dude got tore to shreds for stating his opinions, which in for my money is way worse than being slightly off topic. It's not like he's in here talking about Klima's O.T. goal for Edmonton in the finals or something. I just figure if some on here just can's stand others "stupidity" and "off-topic" comments, and peoples statements on said players (actually positve ones too, not the same ole' sammy and lilja bashing) perhaps become a mod or make your own "sucka free" version of LGW. You and someothers aren't high and mighty, and I enjoy reading most posts from those who are amoungst eveyday posters such as yourself, but some of the "OH I JUST CAN'T TAKE THIS ANYMORE, wah-wah, how can you all be some dumb" crap does get old. Whatever it's not like I have'nt said all that before so do as you all like I guess....

IMO, Z greatly benifits from playing with Dats, no doubt about it. Even more so by the fact he's playing center, prefered position. Do I think Dats should play center, yeah. Split them up. People on here most certainly do worship, and over-sing Z's praises, and do under-appreciate what Dats brings to not only the team, but his line and Z inparticular. It's early, the guy's producing fine and Z is reaping the benifits of having someone with Dats skill who is willing to play out of position and is happy to be out of the spotlight and play second fiddle to him. To me it's all silly, seems to me there could be a few greater concerns to be argueing over, but hey, I'm just another Datsyuk apologist right?

If you think it's bad how people react to critisim (real or percived), concerning hasek and Datsyuk, try saying something other than MVP about Lids or Z and see what that gets you, more that a "couple other people going apes***" I'm willing to bet.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Are you really that dense?

As ive stated before in this thread, both Holmstrom and Zetterberg are on pace to have career seasons in the goal scoring department. Zetterberg is on pace for 60+ goals. Can't you put two simple things together? It would be different if Hank was going to finish with 30 goals but hes not.

Datsyuk's great play on both sides of the puck is allowing Zetterberg to double his goal out put. I fail to see how Sammuelsson or anybody else's lack of scoring puts Datsyuk in the hot seat.

Its such an insane proposition, comparable to Blues fans in 94 complaining about Adam Oates goal totals while Brett Hull was scoring 86.

But nah, lets complain and move Datsyuk back to center. Better yet, lets pair Datsyuk with Filppula and Cleary. That makes tons of sense, pair two third liners with an all star center because we need to have even scoring depth. On top of that, lets save $5 mill for the trade deadline(because you know theres going to be a lot of $10 mill dollar players trading hands).

Theres a lot of things wrong with this team right now but Datsyuk and Datsyuk's line isn't one of them.

Why aren't people complaining about our mediocre defense? Or the bottom 18 players(excluding Hudler) producing absolutely nothing.

Moving Datsyuk to center isn't going to change any of those things.

Ooohhhhh yummy! I do so love it when I get to tear somebody apart. (cracks knuckles). Let us begin:

1. Zetterberg is on pace for 60 goals you say. Q: When was the last time any NHLer scored 60 goals. Q2: When was the last time a Redwing scored 60 goals? You are a fool if you think somebody is going to get 60 goals for us. As I am not a fool and I know nobody is going to get 60 goals, Datsyuk's goal production is going to be a factor somewhere

2. You fail to see how lack of production from the rest of the team (minus Z and Homer) puts Datsyuk on the hotseat. Well, considering that over the past 3 years Datsyuk has been one of our top 3 goal scorers, a drop in production from the rest of the team and a drop in goals from Datsyuk is a problem. Your 2nd paragraph is a rehash of the point you try to make in the 1st paragraph. Again, you're counting on somebody doubling their goal output to make up for Datsyuk. Given the answers to the questions I posed above, what makes you think somebody is going to bag 60 goals?

3. Pairing Datsyuk with Flip and Cleary? Where'd you come up with that. Nobody suggested that. I sure didn't suggest that. Did you pull that out of your ass or out of thin air? C'mon, which was it?

4. Who said there was anything wrong with Datsyuk's play or Datsyuk's line? I just pointed out how his goals are down, his shooting percentage is down, he's getting worse at faceoffs (6% dropoff). My only suggestion was not to move him back immediately or to move him at all. I just posed the thought that Datsyuk is more comfortable and has scored more goals as a center and Zetterberg is a far better winger than Datsyuk is so what would be the harm in switching them?

As for the rest of your thoughts. If those are your concerns bring them up. My concern was a lack of goals from Datsyuk and my opinion that Dats is better (not better than Z exactly) but better as a center than he is a wing and Z is better at being a winger than Dats is so why not move them back?

I know, I know, it'll hurt for awhile. But that's what happens when GST puts his foot up your ass.

"Here endeth the lesson!"

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

While a bit off topic, but I'm sure Gordo knew it would eventually end up here anyway, I don't see anything in 134096's post that is crazy ass, flipping out, apes***. massive off topic rant. Dude got tore to shreds for stating his opinions, which in for my money is way worse than being slightly off topic. It's not like he's in here talking about Klima's O.T. goal for Edmonton in the finals or something. I just figure if some on here just can's stand others "stupidity" and "off-topic" comments, and peoples statements on said players (actually positve ones too, not the same ole' sammy and lilja bashing) perhaps become a mod or make your own "sucka free" version of LGW. You and someothers aren't high and mighty, and I enjoy reading most posts from those who are amoungst eveyday posters such as yourself, but some of the "OH I JUST CAN'T TAKE THIS ANYMORE, wah-wah, how can you all be some dumb" crap does get old. Whatever it's not like I have'nt said all that before so do as you all like I guess....

IMO, Z greatly benifits from playing with Dats, no doubt about it. Even more so by the fact he's playing center, prefered position. Do I think Dats should play center, yeah. Split them up. People on here most certainly do worship, and over-sing Z's praises, and do under-appreciate what Dats brings to not only the team, but his line and Z inparticular. It's early, the guy's producing fine and Z is reaping the benifits of having someone with Dats skill who is willing to play out of position and is happy to be out of the spotlight and play second fiddle to him. To me it's all silly, seems to me there could be a few greater concerns to be argueing over, but hey, I'm just another Datsyuk apologist right?

If you think it's bad how people react to critisim (real or percived), concerning hasek and Datsyuk, try saying something other than MVP about Lids or Z and see what that gets you, more that a "couple other people going apes***" I'm willing to bet.

BB91, you know my holier than thou attitude is my shtick right? It's tongue-in-cheek. When I proclaim my greatness to the entire world, its called a joke. Now, when I call somebody a ******* moron. Well, that's not a joke, that's just me telling the truth. You know, because the truth is all that I speak. And I am never wrong, so therefore..err...nevermind. What are we talking about again???

No.. no its not. And further more you haven't proven one point in your argument. There isn't one shred of truth that leads me to believe that Datsyuk is going to end up with 77 points this season.

Your argument is to move Datsyuk back to center(for whatever reason) is going to spark his stats(which are fine) and will make the team better.

I ask you, what could possibly make this team better by moving Datsyuk to center? Its pretty much proven at this point that splitting up Datsyuk and Zetterberg is a mistake.

Its pretty obvious that this team is lacking secondary scoring depth and it will be addressed at the deadline.

If Datsyuk and Zetterberg were both playing center, on different lines, this team wouldn't be leading the league. These "experiments" have been dis proven in past seasons. We don't have enough depth at wing to split up Dats and Hank. The only time we had a spark in the Anahiem series was re-uniting Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

So again, what was your point?

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. You're still not in the same ballpark but at least you're in the right country now.

Re: Your first statement about the 77 points. Funny how you project Zetterberg to score 60 goals (something a Wings player has done how many times??) Yet you don't "believe" the projections that Datsyuk will have 10 goals and 77 points. Sure looks to me like you're cherry picking your stats here in your favor. One could say I am as well but I think the likelihood of somebody scoring 60 goals is far more unbelievable than Datsyuk scoring only 77 points.

So yes, there's no truth to there being anything to point to Datsyuk scoring 77 points. Except for the projections. So therefore, by your logic, projections are crap and we shouldn't count on Z scoring 60 goals. Now that we've established that are you going to come back with your "z is on pace for 60 goals garbage"?

As for splitting up Datsyuk and Zetterberg, who on Earth suggested that? What does moving Dats to center and Z to the wing have to do with them switching lines? Seriously man, get on the bus, i've got the bastard in park for crying out loud. What, you want me to throw you a damn rope or something?

"So agains, what was your point?"

Datsyuk is a better Center than he is a Winger

Zetterberg, whilst being a great center, is better than Datsyuk at being a Winger. This is not to say he is better or worse than Datsyuk at center, just that he plays the Wing more effectively than Dats.

.........Is that clear? Do I need to draw you a picture? If so, should I use pencil or crayon? Which are you most accustomed to on a daily basis?

[Opie 308]

GS&T,

You and I usually have some pretty good debates, but in this case I find it funny that you can completely ignore other's opinion or call it blatantly false, yet at the same time telling people that you make up your own mind and can develop your own opinions, yet others can't??

And before you take me to school, you say you KNOW no one will get 60 goals, well did anyone think Gretzky would do what he did before he did it.

There are no facts available that tell you what the outcome of the season will be. So we are all arguing opinions.

Next week the roles could reverse, teams could start focusing on Z and the next thing you know dats has 6 goals in 5 games. We are 17 games in, the team is 13-3-1, Dats is among the league leaders in assists, Z is among league leaders in points and goals, Osgood is among the league leaders in wins.

This team has better output and better stats from more players than that ducks team that in other threads you tell me is so talented, so why the worry if the ducks are so talented and the wings players are putting up better numbers?

Would I like to see Dats having a similar or same season as Z, yeah sure, but at this point in time with the way things are working out and going well why should I, you, or anyone say, If Dats doesn't start scoring the wings will be in trouble, when by using your own stats he has 2 goals and the team is 13-3-1.

I also noticed in one of your first posts you said you were looking at goals and goals alone, that was your worry. Well my friend you and I both know that you can not judge a team, player, line, or coach by just goals scored.

Joe Thornton has become a pretty damn good player, elite IMO, without scoring a ton of goals and he has linemates that are a hell of a lot worse than Z and homer.

[bringback91 2]

BB91, you know my holier than thou attitude is my shtick right? It's tongue-in-cheek. When I proclaim my greatness to the entire world, its called a joke. Now, when I call somebody a ******* moron. Well, that's not a joke, that's just me telling the truth. You know, because the truth is all that I speak. And I am never wrong, so therefore..err...nevermind. What are we talking about again???

Oh I know gord, I'm just saying dude's new, made some statements and it seemed like he got drug out to the town square by a couple and stoned. As i've told Harold, you had to know it was going to spark some off topic debate when you posted it. I have no problem with off topic stuff or whatever, I read whatever sometimes the best debates are off topic. My problem is people going off topic to complain about going off topic. When you know if dude starts a thread about what he posted, you'd have mod team #2 roasting him cause he didn't put it in here.... Anyway, that's not really even my point,if I even have one. I guess I'd rather have people like yourself and 134096 that have there opinions on players and can share them without beating around the bush and backhanded compliments, just to be able to claim "on the fence" status. Am I worried about only 2 goals for Dats, not at all. Just like I wouldn't be worried if it was Z. Dats is still in on a massive amout of Wings goals, weather or not he's on the scoresheet, and as a player yourself you know that impacting a game means more than just a scoresheet. I'd like to see them split, the consensus around here is Z doesn't need alot of help, so split em up. I like a dats cleary flip line. What could it hurt, Z can't do any worse apperently, and it's no where but up as far as Dats is concerend. I say go for it.

BTW, sergei is on a 7 in 7 point streak. No, not lighting the leauge on fire by any means, but not dragging the BJ's down as some others were stating in a different thread. just felt I should point that out.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Oh I know gord, I'm just saying dude's new, made some statements and it seemed like he got drug out to the town square by a couple and stoned. As i've told Harold, you had to know it was going to spark some off topic debate when you posted it. I have no problem with off topic stuff or whatever, I read whatever sometimes the best debates are off topic. My problem is people going off topic to complain about going off topic. When you know if dude starts a thread about what he posted, you'd have mod team #2 roasting him cause he didn't put it in here.... Anyway, that's not really even my point,if I even have one. I guess I'd rather have people like yourself and 134096 that have there opinions on players and can share them without beating around the bush and backhanded compliments, just to be able to claim "on the fence" status. Am I worried about only 2 goals for Dats, not at all. Just like I wouldn't be worried if it was Z. Dats is still in on a massive amout of Wings goals, weather or not he's on the scoresheet, and as a player yourself you know that impacting a game means more than just a scoresheet. I'd like to see them split, the consensus around here is Z doesn't need alot of help, so split em up. I like a dats cleary flip line. What could it hurt, Z can't do any worse apperently, and it's no where but up as far as Dats is concerend. I say go for it.

BTW, sergei is on a 7 in 7 point streak. No, not lighting the leauge on fire by any means, but not dragging the BJ's down as some others were stating in a different thread. just felt I should point that out.

Well, let me just state that as of today I am a former player. My hands can no longer do the job and i'm just way too slow to keep up with the kids that are 10 years my junior. As for the goal scoring, as a former defenseman who couldn't score unles it went off of me and into my own net, yeah, I get real worried when Dats has only 2 goals. And yes, i'd be worried if Z had only 2 as well.

Feds, Yeah, yeah, he's been OK! That's as far as i'm willing to go on that one today. You know I follow the Jackets pretty close. I thought they'd go .500 with hitch last year and I believe they were only off by one loss or something. IMO, most of the credit goes to him. Also, Leclair has been lights out and Zherdev is playing the best team hockey i've ever seen out of him. (did I really just say that?)

Who is cherry picking stats? Datsyuk at the worst could end up with 77 points(Which is highly doubtful when you consider his past performances). On the other hand, Zetterberg is leading the league in points and is on pace for 60+ goals. Do you honestly believe that Hank is going to be so snake bitten that he'll go on a fifty game goal scoring drought?

You have no commonsense if you can't speculate that Zetterberg has a very good chance of hitting 60+.

What if anything gives you the indication that DZH is going to slow down from last years pace? The only thing that slowed them down last season was Zetterberg's injury. But thats ok, we won't cherry pick stats. Zetterberg is going to score 33 goals this season, so Datsyuk must get 30 on his own. Holmstrom(Who has 9 goals already) is only going to finish with 30 goals.

Even with Zetterberg scoring at a ridiculous pace, its crazy to suggest that he'll hit 60+.

Here's the thing, you say Datsyuk likely will ratchet up his numbers to be more in line with his past seasons. You seem to miss the entire point of why I started this thread. The issue is his lack of producing goals because he's on the Wing. How exactly is he going to bounce back and post his typical numbers if he's stuck on the Wing and not at center, you know, where he racked up those 80pt seasons?

As for the 60 goals thing. Is it possible, sure. But, and this goes for OPIE as well, when was the last time somebody scored 60 goals. When was the last time the Wings, typically a share the wealth kind of club, have a 60 goal scorer?

I'm not trying to be nonsensical on this. I'm just being realistic. What do you think the vegas odds are on somebody bagging 60, especially a wing? I'm betting you're doing alot better than 2-1 on your money on that bet.

Whatever, I guess I got my money's worth out of this thread. Look at it this way. If Z scores 60 goals and Dats doesn't score at all yet we still win the division and a CUP! You can say you were right. And if Dats picks it up and bags 30 and Z gets 40, you can tell me "see, we told you so Gordo".....again, you'll have been right.

I just hope that later in the year I can come back in here and say, man you guys were right, I was worried for nothing. I sure hope that's how it works out because I have a feeling you're not going to like what I have to say if things don't end up changing.

60 goals? Anybody want to make a wager on that. I will put up good money. What odds do you want? We can pick somebody trustworthy on the boards to hold the money. Any of you projectionaters out there confident enough in this 60 goal malarky to put your money where your keyboard is?

[LangandWilliamsownZetterberg 0]

They really should have kept Williams and Lang over Datsyuk, what does he have? 2 goals this season for 7 million dollars?

[sibiriak 84]

Well, we all watched the game last night and what did we all see? What I saw was Dats' best scoring chances coming from the slot area where he would typically be were he not playing the left wing boards. Oh yeah, and he did hit the far side post. Of course, the puck didn't go in and it did have to be a nearly perfect shot because he was along the left side wall.

Again, all i'm saying is he may be getting shots but if you look at them, there's a reason why they aren't going in. Taking 40 shots from bad angles on the left side isn't the same as taking 40 shots from a more primed scoring area like the slot. It's only 1 game but in reailty, its now 17 games and only 2 goals for Datsyuk.

So, what we saw yesterday, was Datsyuk playing LW, and yet by my count he attempted 6 shots, one from each point, two from the prime scoring area in the center slot, one from near left post on a backdoor stuffing attempt, and only one shot (which came closest to going in, by hitting a post, BTW) from far left boards. I fail to see any correlation in his shooting spots with his nominal LW position. In fact, whenever the DZH line gained sustained pressure, Datsyuk was more often to be found in the right corner or on the right half-boards, rather than on the left side.

I repeat Datsyuk attempted 1(ONE) shot from the nominal left wing position and 5 from elsewhere. I don't see how his playing a nominal LW affects his shot selection or his offensive zone positionong in the slightest degree.

EDIT And as I mentioned in the earlier post, Datsyuk's goals per game are down, but the combined goals per game from Dats, Zetterberg and Homer are UP compared to the last season. I would take 10% more goals from the whole line every time, no matter if only one or two or all three are scoring those goals. There's no problem with that line at all.

Edited November 12, 2007 by sibiriak

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

So, what we saw yesterday, was Datsyuk playing LW, and yet by my count he attempted 6 shots, one from each point, two from the prime scoring area in the center slot, one from near left post on a backdoor stuffing attempt, and only one shot (which came closest to going in, by hitting a post, BTW) from far left boards. I fail to see any correlation in his shooting spots with his nominal LW position. In fact, whenever the DZH line gained sustained pressure, Datsyuk was more often to be found in the right corner or on the right half-boards, rather than on the left side.

I repeat Datsyuk attempted 1(ONE) shot from the nominal left wing position and 5 from elsewhere. I don't see how his playing a nominal LW affects his shot selection or his offensive zone positionong in the slightest degree.

EDIT And as I mentioned in the earlier post, Datsyuk's goals per game are down, but the combined goals per game from Dats, Zetterberg and Homer are UP compared to the last season. I would take 10% more goals from the whole line every time, no matter if only one or two or all three are scoring those goals. There's no problem with that line at all.

And you're all right and i'm wrong. That's what your after so there you go. For all our sake's I hope they prove me wrong 10 times over.

[Dano33 41]

I'm not sure if this has been brought up or not, but once the puck drops, these two cycle the puck so well, and are constantly moving, it doesn't really matter where they lined up. besides faceoffs they arent center and wing, they're two forwards. +/-, goals, assists, takeaways, and all that stuff don't have much to do with positions. I don't think we would see a difference if they switched spots.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

To the original topic at hand, it's a bit of a stretch I think, but it's a legit topic to an extent.

Datsyuk has still had a hand in a lot of the Wings goal production, even if he hasn't been the one putting it in the net consistently. He's still showing he's one of the better set-up men in the game today and it's not like he's just invisible out there.

He's also had some pretty bad luck right now with goalies making really good saves on him recently and hit posts. For the most part, he's shooting more than normal I think.

That being said, it Datsyuk not scroring hasn't hurt the Wings right now as Zetterberg has been kicking butt as well and the team has been getting some decent secondary scoring for the most part all season so far, as well as my first point above.

However, in the event of the offense potentially going dry at some point in the season, or if the injury bug hits, Datsyuk will need to continue to try to create plays offensively, hopefully continue to have urgency to shoot, and get some better luck as well, like when he really stepped up late regular season last year with crazy injuries.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

To the original topic at hand, it's a bit of a stretch I think, but it's a legit topic to an extent.

Datsyuk has still had a hand in a lot of the Wings goal production, even if he hasn't been the one putting it in the net consistently. He's still showing he's one of the better set-up men in the game today and it's not like he's just invisible out there.

He's also had some pretty bad luck right now with goalies making really good saves on him recently and hit posts. For the most part, he's shooting more than normal I think.

That being said, it Datsyuk not scroring hasn't hurt the Wings right now as Zetterberg has been kicking butt as well and the team has been getting some decent secondary scoring for the most part all season so far, as well as my first point above.

However, in the event of the offense potentially going dry at some point in the season, or if the injury bug hits, Datsyuk will need to continue to try to create plays offensively, hopefully continue to have urgency to shoot, and get some better luck as well, like when he really stepped up late regular season last year with crazy injuries.

This reply is directed at noone in particular. 'Cept maybe the guy who goes by 12305845940....whatever, I don't know what number he is these days.

This thread became much more than I thought it would initially. For the sake of killing this horse and moving on I just want to pose some questions to the board. Commentary isn't necessary but feel free. What I'd really like is somebody to refute what I present here.

1. Currently, is Pavel Datsyuk on pace to score less goals and less points than the past 2 seasons? YES

2. Are Pavel's shooting percentage and faceoff percentage down from past seasons? YES

3. Is Pavel Datsyuk a better centerman than he is a winger? YES

4. Is Henrik Zetterberg a better winger than Pavel Datsyuk? YES

Anywhere in this thread did I ever say Datsyuk wasn't playing well or that he wasn't effective or wasn't contributing? NO

Did I ever suggest moving Datsyuk to another line or else splitting Dats and Z up? NO

Did I ever say that we should move Datsyuk back to center immediately? NO

Did I ever say the DZH line wasn't playing great or wasn't one of the top lines in the game? NO

If anyone can refute the answers to the above, please do so and please you direct quotes.

All i've ever said is that Dats is more comfortable at center IMO and that Zetterberg is a better winger than Dats, so I "wondered aloud" why they weren't switched. Yes, it is okay to wonder about things even when they are going well.

Oh yeah, and for those that missed the short bus today, the correlation in all this is that Datsyuk's numbers are down and its BECAUSE he's playing the wing. That's not a commentary about Homer or Zetterberg or the Spezza, Heatley, Alfredsson line. Its a comment about AND ONLY about Pavel Datsyuk.

Edited November 13, 2007 by GordieSid&Ted

[norrisnick 1]

This reply is directed at noone in particular. 'Cept maybe the guy who goes by 12305845940....whatever, I don't know what number he is these days.

This thread became much more than I thought it would initially. For the sake of killing this horse and moving on I just want to pose some questions to the board. Commentary isn't necessary but feel free. What I'd really like is somebody to refute what I present here.

1. Currently, is Pavel Datsyuk on pace to score less goals and less points than the past 2 seasons? YES

2. Are Pavel's shooting percentage and faceoff percentage down from past seasons? YES

3. Is Pavel Datsyuk a better centerman than he is a winger? YES

4. Is Henrik Zetterberg a better winger than Pavel Datsyuk? YES

Anywhere in this thread did I ever say Datsyuk wasn't playing well or that he wasn't effective or wasn't contributing? NO

Did I ever suggest moving Datsyuk to another line or else splitting Dats and Z up? NO

Did I ever say that we should move Datsyuk back to center immediately? NO

Did I ever say the DZH line wasn't playing great or wasn't one of the top lines in the game? NO

If anyone can refute the answers to the above, please do so and please you direct quotes.

All i've ever said is that Dats is more comfortable at center IMO and that Zetterberg is a better winger than Dats, so I "wondered aloud" why they weren't switched. Yes, it is okay to wonder about things even when they are going well.

Oh yeah, and for those that missed the short bus today, the correlation in all this is that Datsyuk's numbers are down and its BECAUSE he's playing the wing. That's not a commentary about Homer or Zetterberg or the Spezza, Heatley, Alfredsson line. Its a comment about AND ONLY about Pavel Datsyuk.

You're misusing correlation. You're implying causation here. The correlation is that Pavel's numbers are down and he is playing on the wing. There is no because involved. For all we know his numbers would be identical were he playing in the middle. He's getting chances. He's taking more shots than he's ever taken before. They're just not going in. Posts, great saves, etc...

Anyway reality boils down to this:

Z at center + Pavel on the wing > Pavel at center + Z on the wing.

[RedWingedKitten 9]

Whatever happens with the line, I am pretty sure that Datsyuk will still have 30+ goals this season. Don't give me a "well he is on pace for X goals" Because he started last year a bit slow too.

On a bit off topic note, believe it or not I am being trained by a guy who has worked with (trained) Datsyuk in the past. (year or so) I get to hear funny storys all the time... anywho, I asked my trainer if he has noticed anything odd in Datsyuks shot, and so far his shot is the same if not better. (I think HockeyCrazy knows the person I speak of)(J from Troy)

Just my 2 cents.

[SwedeLundin77 460]

Like I care what Spezza or Blake is doing. What impact does that have on Pavel Datsyuk and the redwings? How are you doing in your hockey league? You have as much impact in your league on Datsyuk as Spezza is having right now okay.

By the way, look at Spezza's numbers. Spezza's numbers always look like that.

When did I say datsyuk was ineffective? Comprehend much?

I said, repeatedly, that IMO, Datsyuk is struggling. Do you deny the stats? That his numbers are all down from faceoffs to goals to points per game? Do you have an argument to refute that?

I have said, that I think he's struggling and 2 goals is proof of that. I have said that Z is a better winger and Datsyuk is more comfortable at Center so why not switch them if this continues to be an issue for Dats personally. Here's the rub, everybody sees what Z is doing and that we're winning. That's all fine and dandy but when you are winning and one of your stars isn't playing as well as he should be, that's not being great, that's being lucky that everyone else is picking up the slack.

Z has an injury history. He isn't likely to keep up this torrid pace. I suppose i'm the only one who thinks Datsyuk could be facing confidence issues and that were other players on the team struggling to find the net, we'd be in bad shape right now as we could not turn to Datsyuk for goal scoring as it stands.

But, I seem to be the lone wolf here so there's definitely something i'm not seeing that others are. Or i'm just getting my panties in a bind over nothing. For our sake, I hope i'm completely wrong about all this.

You need to calm down dude... seriously.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

You're the worst member on this message baord. Your arguments have valid points but as soon as someone calls you out on the points you flip flop your way out of them. "It was only a suggestion" "I didn't mean that we need to move Datsyuk to center!" Really? Because thats your whole argument. That Datsyuk is more comfortable as a centerman. Well one can then infer that you would be in favor of moving Datsyuk to center and Zetterberg to wing. But, as soon as I point this out, you change your story.

Is Datsyuk more comfortable playing center? Who knows but you seem to be the specialist on all things Datsyuk.

Is Zetterberg better on wing? The stats seem to disagree. Zetterberg has put up his best season and a half as a centerman.

Babcock has stated nurmerous times that its up to the Euro twins, on which position they play. They haven't switched it up in a year, what leads you to believe that they need to change?

Your boderline trolling is worthless. And don't make it out to be a bunch of butt hurt Datsyuk fans being outraged. You're "suggestions" aren't critical, they're certifiably insane. Why would you break up the best line in hockey, because of your presumed comforts of Pavel Datsyuk?

How can I let you get the last word in when you're so blatantly wrong.

PLEASE READ CAREFULLY. I KNOW YOU CAN DO IT. PLEASE CONCENTRATE.

REGARDING YOUR ACCUSATIONS OF FLIP FLOPPING

I never said I didn't think we needed to move Datsyuk to center. What I said was he seems more comfortable at center so why isn't he there. Furthermore, when talk of switching their positions evolved, I made it crystal clear that I didn't think he needed to be moved immediately, but that he should be moved if he continued to struggle with goals. There is a world of difference between what I said and what you claim I said.

Did I ever say Zetterberg was better on wing? NO. I said he was a better winger than Datsyuk. Again, there is a world of difference between what I said and what you claim I said.

Lastly, when did I ever say to break them up? I NEVER, NEVER SUGGESTED BREAKING UP THE LINE, just rearranging it if Datsyuk's continued to struggle to score goals.

How can you call me out for anything when you don't even know what I said? Seriously, comprehend much?

I'm a troll? That's laughable coming from the guy who joined up 3 days ago. If you want to argue with me at least get my positions straight so you know what you're arguing.

To reiterate: Saying Zetterberg is a better winger than Datsyuk does not equate to Zetterberg is a better winger than he is a center.

How on Earth do you miss something like that? I mean, wow. That's not even close and frankly, I have a hard time figuring you out. You can't really be that stupid can you?

You're misusing correlation. You're implying causation here. The correlation is that Pavel's numbers are down and he is playing on the wing. There is no because involved. For all we know his numbers would be identical were he playing in the middle. He's getting chances. He's taking more shots than he's ever taken before. They're just not going in. Posts, great saves, etc...

Anyway reality boils down to this:

Z at center + Pavel on the wing > Pavel at center + Z on the wing.

More shots from lesser scoring positions means nothing to me.

Certainly, I think its a fair enough assessment to claim his numbers are down because he's on the wing. Why is that such a leap? He plays center, his career numbers are better than what he's projecting right now. What could be a more prominent factor than his position on the ice? What, is it a new stick? Different skates? Bad ice surface or just bad luck?

Your equation only works if you think Zetterberg is a far superior centerman than Pavel Datsyuk.

These numbers mean nothing but for the sake of simplicity:

Zetterberg @ center = 100

Datsyuk @ center = 95

Zetterberg @ wing = 90

Datsyuk @ wing = 75

Clearly, my opinion is that Datsyuk at center with Z on the wing is greater than Zetterberg at center and Datsyuk on the wing. Of course these numbers are arbitrary but I'm of the firm belief that there's not much difference in effectiveness of who plays center but a dramatic increase in comfort and production depending on who plays the wing.

[eva unit zero 271]

How can I let you get the last word in when you're so blatantly wrong.

PLEASE READ CAREFULLY. I KNOW YOU CAN DO IT. PLEASE CONCENTRATE.

REGARDING YOUR ACCUSATIONS OF FLIP FLOPPING

I never said I didn't think we needed to move Datsyuk to center. What I said was he seems more comfortable at center so why isn't he there. Furthermore, when talk of switching their positions evolved, I made it crystal clear that I didn't think he needed to be moved immediately, but that he should be moved if he continued to struggle with goals. There is a world of difference between what I said and what you claim I said.

Did I ever say Zetterberg was better on wing? NO. I said he was a better winger than Datsyuk. Again, there is a world of difference between what I said and what you claim I said.

Lastly, when did I ever say to break them up? I NEVER, NEVER SUGGESTED BREAKING UP THE LINE, just rearranging it if Datsyuk's continued to struggle to score goals.

How can you call me out for anything when you don't even know what I said? Seriously, comprehend much?

I'm a troll? That's laughable coming from the guy who joined up 3 days ago. If you want to argue with me at least get my positions straight so you know what you're arguing.

To reiterate: Saying Zetterberg is a better winger than Datsyuk does not equate to Zetterberg is a better winger than he is a center.

How on Earth do you miss something like that? I mean, wow. That's not even close and frankly, I have a hard time figuring you out. You can't really be that stupid can you?

More shots from lesser scoring positions means nothing to me.

Certainly, I think its a fair enough assessment to claim his numbers are down because he's on the wing. Why is that such a leap? He plays center, his career numbers are better than what he's projecting right now. What could be a more prominent factor than his position on the ice? What, is it a new stick? Different skates? Bad ice surface or just bad luck?

Your equation only works if you think Zetterberg is a far superior centerman than Pavel Datsyuk.

These numbers mean nothing but for the sake of simplicity:

Zetterberg @ center = 100

Datsyuk @ center = 95

Zetterberg @ wing = 90

Datsyuk @ wing = 75

Clearly, my opinion is that Datsyuk at center with Z on the wing is greater than Zetterberg at center and Datsyuk on the wing. Of course these numbers are arbitrary but I'm of the firm belief that there's not much difference in effectiveness of who plays center but a dramatic increase in comfort and production depending on who plays the wing.

I have your solution. Since Z is the better centerman, but you claim Dats' goal scoring problems have been due to his positioning on the left wing...why not just swap Dats and Homer? Dats would have a much better angle coming off the right side, and Homer would be in front no matter where he was listed as playing.