Dom Bashers Welcome!

[interminded 1]

This is Detroit...hello..goalies aren't treated well here...

Absolutely true.

Cheveldae, Joseph, Essensa, Ing, Hodson, Legace, Osgood, Riendeau, Ranford.

I'm not saying they were all elite NHL goalies and should have been treated as such, but most of them were treated quite bad in their day.

I still feel bad for how Cheveldae was treated. That was really too much..

[savaking72 0]

He will play one of the back to backs on 11/21 and 11/22, I am sure. Are you coming back in here when he plays great? Just asking.

I'll swallow my pride, and give him an Atta Boy. That's it though.

[Wildwings44 5]

The Wings would have lost last night against the Jackets if Dom were in net. It's as simple as that and hard to deny. They would not have gone to ovetime and most certainly lost in the shootout since Dom can't stop a breakaway. His tactic - fall backwards into the net and let the puck trickle over the line.

[wingsfan75 2]

The Wings would have lost last night against the Jackets if Dom were in net. It's as simple as that and hard to deny. They would not have gone to ovetime and most certainly lost in the shootout since Dom can't stop a breakaway. His tactic - fall backwards into the net and let the puck trickle over the line.

Actually, normally I would have agreed about the flopping other than the puck trickling across the line, but seeing that I was at the game on Saturday and watched our powerplay get outplayed virtually all night, Dom stood up for at least two of the three goals allowed on breaks. Maybe he should have flopped instead of standing up. His methods may be unconventional but they've worked for his entire career. I definitely do not put all the blame on Dom for that loss but he has to be better when he has that kind of time to play the guy on the break.

Edited November 19, 2007 by wingsfan75

[interminded 1]

The Wings would have lost last night against the Jackets if Dom were in net. It's as simple as that and hard to deny.

It's quite easy to deny actually.

Dom didn't play last night, so it's literally impossible to say how he would have played and what the score would have been.

[Wildwings44 5]

It's quite easy to deny actually.

Dom didn't play last night, so it's literally impossible to say how he would have played and what the score would have been.

Wow, you make an awesome point! Did you think of that response all yourself or did you have help? Come on, tell the truth.

Actually, normally I would have agreed about the flopping other than the puck trickling across the line, but seeing that I was at the game on Saturday and watched our powerplay get outplayed virtually all night, Dom stood up for at least two of the three goals allowed on breaks. Maybe he should have flopped instead of standing up. His methods may be unconventional but they've worked for his entire career. I definitely do not put all the blame on Dom for that loss but he has to be better when he has that kind of time to play the guy on the break.

But did you notice, each breakaway he was backing up into his net. He never stood his ground. I agree, it wasn't all his fault, but he certainly was s***ty and didn't help the cause.

Edited November 19, 2007 by Wildwings44

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Wow, you make an awesome point! Did you think of that response all yourself or did you have help? Come on, tell the truth.

Dave, do you have a case of the Mondays?

Hasek's confidence level is definitely off compared to his play last season, but its hard to say what he would've done given that he got the nod last night. The point is that Hasek is a wily veteran that is known to get off to slow starts to the season. That being said, we are a quarter of the way in and he does need to step up sooner rather than later. If we're still having this conversation in January it wouldn't be the worst idea to run with Ozzie.

However, I still think its too early to give up on Hasek.

Edited November 19, 2007 by Never Forget Mac #25

[Guest LivingtheDream]

The Wings would have lost last night against the Jackets if Dom were in net. It's as simple as that and hard to deny. They would not have gone to ovetime and most certainly lost in the shootout since Dom can't stop a breakaway. His tactic - fall backwards into the net and let the puck trickle over the line.

Obviously you didn't have any help coming up with this one on your own. What a simple minded thought. Dom is one of the top ten goalies of all time. I think his opnion on his methods somewhat outweighs that of someone whose accomplishments in hockey can be measured in number of posts to LGW.

[interminded 1]

Wow, you make an awesome point! Did you think of that response all yourself or did you have help? Come on, tell the truth.

It took me a while, but I really did think of that myself.

I tried to think of something which would have the impact of

It's as simple as that and hard to deny.

, but that one is out of my league.

Thanks for noticing my nifty penmanship though !

[Wildwings44 5]

Dave, do you have a case of the Mondays?

Hasek's confidence level is definitely off compared to his play last season, but its hard to say what he would've done given that he got the nod last night. The point is that Hasek is a wily veteran that is known to get off to slow starts to the season. That being said, we are a quarter of the way in and he does need to step up sooner rather than later. If we're still having this conversation in January it wouldn't be the worst idea to run with Ozzie.

However, I still think its too early to give up on Hasek.

Hey John, no, it's not a case of the Mondays, just tired of some of the imbeciles on LGW.

Hasek's slow start is longer than normal. Plus, I'm tired of that excuse. He has played terrible. Point: Had Hasek played his st. louis and hawks game against the jackets, we would have lost.

[shadow47 1]

Wow, you make an awesome point! Did you think of that response all yourself or did you have help? Come on, tell the truth.

But did you notice, each breakaway he was backing up into his net. He never stood his ground. I agree, it wasn't all his fault, but he certainly was s***ty and didn't help the cause.

The only problem with this is that every method of goaltending teaches you to back up into your net. You come out to challenge when the guy is far out and back up with him at his speed, staying close to the shooter...perhaps you perceive the shooter taking a shot rather than deking as the goalie doing something (standing his ground), but only appears that way because the man has shot instead of deked. People call Hasek "sloppy" but he is one of the better skating goalies in the league. If you "stand your ground" as you suggest, the guy deking will just go around him and have a wide open net.

Goaltending is predominantly the goalie constantly trying to have the best angle of blocking to open net ratio, maintaining the angle, so to speak. That is the concept of flopping, when Hasek flops, it looks like there is tons of net because he is flat on the ice, however, he is so close to the puck (or at least, how this is successful) with his paddle, blocker, glove, pad whatever, that he has in fact maintained the angle because the puck distance to blocking area has been decreased, for those that wonder about the whole idea behind flopping. 2 of the goals the other night were between the legs so it wouldn't have mattered if Hasek was 10 feet out of the net (goal #2) or right on the goal line (goal #1), that hole is the same.

Edited November 20, 2007 by shadow47

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

I haven't read the previous posts in this thread so I apologize if I'm repeating previous posters, and I refuse to get in a prolonged debate about goalies or a pro-Hasek or pro-Osgood or anti-Hasek and anti-Osgood debate as excessive talk (or almost any talk for that matter) about goaltending drives me nuts and makes me want to shove a pencil in my ear and run head first into a wall, among other painful acts. I don't have a huge pro or negative bias/opinion towards either goalie, generally speaking, so if anybody labels me having any kind of bias towards either goalie from this post, I will jump through my laptop and strangle you. With that said, this is my point and that'll probably be it for me and any detailed posts in this thread.

I don't see why this team won't make the playoffs. I know the division is harder this season, but still, they should make it in spite of how well or bad either Hasek or Osgood might play this season. This has always been the case in recent history with the Red Wings. I'm certainly not trying to diminish the roles that Hasek or Osgood or other goaltenders have played in the past for Detroit, but let,s get real here. The Wings have never had to sweat bullets to make the playoffs lately, and regular season goaltending has not been a major advantage or crutch for Detroit in the playoff picture.

With that said, I don,t care how unpopular it may be, but Hasek still needs to play more of the games. Not a whole lot more of the majority, but Hasek will never get going if he is just relegated to full-time backup duty. Osgood has certainly deserved more playing time so far due to his play alone, and HE WILL CONTINUE TO GET IT I think (and hope as it is deserved), but Hasek still needs to play, and it will be less than last year probably but that is a good thing due to his age and Osgood playing well. Assuming both goalies are healthy, I'd play Hasek about 60% of the games this season. That's not a huge difference of playing time between the two goalies in the grand scheme of things.

Contrary to popular belief right now (I am assuming), THERE IS STILL PLENTY OF TIME for Hasek to improve his numbers. Again, this team is going to make the playoffs in spite of how good or bad the regular season goaltending might be from either tender. There is no reason to make any rash decisions on goaltending when this team is doing fairly well right now, despite the recent snag, and will make the playoffs.

The playoffs begin in April? That is STILL A LONG TIME AWAY. If Hasek for whatever reason doesn't get it going by mid/late February, then you play Osgood a lot more. That's 3 months to get in a groove. 3 months is a long time as well. Sorry, I know some will probably ask me how the hell I can be so patient and I know a lot of people want results NOW, but again I'm trying to think big picture/long term for this season right now, especially again with the Wings being able to comfortably make the playoffs year-in and year-out without goaltending being a huge advantage/disadvantage in overall regular season playa. There is still time for Hasek to get better and for Osgood to continue to play well.

The Wings would have lost last night against the Jackets if Dom were in net. It's as simple as that and hard to deny. They would not have gone to ovetime and most certainly lost in the shootout since Dom can't stop a breakaway. His tactic - fall backwards into the net and let the puck trickle over the line.

And you know this how? He didn't play, so we'll never know.

That's a strong assumption my boy...

[BlueMonk 102]

The coach still says Hasek is the #1 goalie.

[OsGOD 3]

Coach also said manny was number one the entire rest of the season... look where that got us

He can say number 1 till he is blue in the face... fact of the matter is we will win more with our #2 in net!

Gushes ozzie man love...neener neener neener

Edited November 20, 2007 by OsGOD

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

The coach still says Hasek is the #1 goalie.

I guess with Babcock ice time has to be earned at every position except goaltender.

[Heaton 1]

I guess with Babcock ice time has to be earned at every position except goaltender.

Harold, what exactly do you think he means by the statement? You know how Hasek is, this has more to do with getting Hasek turned around than anything else. Calling Hasek the #1 goaltender doesn't mean anything at this point. Osgood will still virtually split time with him or get more starts, it's been evident the entire year.

Personally, I don't think Hasek could handle Babcock not saying that, Osgood could and has. It has nothing to do with earning icetime.

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

Coach also said manny was number one the entire rest of the season... look where that got us

Yep, and we've had coaches say the same thing with Osgood, and we've found ourselves out in the first or second round that way on a number of occasions...but alas, Hasek, the man who has never lost with us in the first or second round is certainly applicable to your statement, cherio mate, another fine fine comment. Oh Hasek, how doth thou sucketh so badly when thoust hath Osgood to learneth from! I'm going to mail a pad and pen to Hasek so he can take notes from Osgood while he warms up the bench.

I guess with Babcock ice time has to be earned at every position except goaltender.

AH! It gets even better! Except, wait... no.. that statement only applies to youngins like Flip and Hudler who haven't proven themselves year after year after year after year (I think even YOU get my point) again.. You see, when a player "dom"inates the league for so many years, sane people tend to give him some time to sort things out. The Wings...UHHHHH... have that benefit seeing as how we are top in the west, and not fearing for our playoff life. There were years when Yzerman was less than stellar, Cheli didn't have a single goal last season, Draper went from selke to nobody... and yet I don't recall Babcock scratching them. Honestly, do we really need to win the presidents trophy again? I'm really tired of that trophy, it sorely lacks in the post-win parade and festivities. So, do you really need to be wetting yourself over the irrelivancies of the regular season? Is it really so bad to have two goalies ready and capable come the playoffs? Do you color outside of the lines on purpose or are you just stupid?

But no no.. you're totally right.. screw Hasek, ditch him. we should stick with Osgood and Howard. Unless you're implying Hasek shouldn't get playing time since he hasn't earned it, but should somehow still be ready to play without establishing a rhythm, if Osgood gets hurt. Well, I'm assuming you aren't that dense. sooo.. Osgood and Howard, that's a dynamic duo that strikes fear in the hearts of opponents everywhere! plus we could scrammble their names and call them Howgood! We'll have plenty of time to come up with similar jests while our boys our golfing after a 1st round exit to the flames.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Yep, and we've had coaches say the same thing with Osgood, and we've found ourselves out in the first or second round that way on a number of occasions...but alas, Hasek, the man who has never lost with us in the first or second round is certainly applicable to your statement, cherio mate, another fine fine comment. Oh Hasek, how doth thou sucketh so badly when thoust hath Osgood to learneth from! I'm going to mail a pad and pen to Hasek so he can take notes from Osgood while he warms up the bench.

AH! It gets even better! Except, wait... no.. that statement only applies to youngins like Flip and Hudler who haven't proven themselves year after year after year after year (I think even YOU get my point) again.. You see, when a player "dom"inates the league for so many years, sane people tend to give him some time to sort things out. The Wings...UHHHHH... have that benefit seeing as how we are top in the west, and not fearing for our playoff life. There were years when Yzerman was less than stellar, Cheli didn't have a single goal last season, Draper went from selke to nobody... and yet I don't recall Babcock scratching them. Honestly, do we really need to win the presidents trophy again? I'm really tired of that trophy, it sorely lacks in the post-win parade and festivities. So, do you really need to be wetting yourself over the irrelivancies of the regular season? Is it really so bad to have two goalies ready and capable come the playoffs? Do you color outside of the lines on purpose or are you just stupid?

But no no.. you're totally right.. screw Hasek, ditch him. we should stick with Osgood and Howard. Unless you're implying Hasek shouldn't get playing time since he hasn't earned it, but should somehow still be ready to play without establishing a rhythm, if Osgood gets hurt. Well, I'm assuming you aren't that dense. sooo.. Osgood and Howard, that's a dynamic duo that strikes fear in the hearts of opponents everywhere! plus we could scrammble their names and call them Howgood! We'll have plenty of time to come up with similar jests while our boys our golfing after a 1st round exit to the flames.

wow. you got all that from one sentence of mine?

Untwist your knickers. You've basically assumed a lot of things and put words in my mouth in your rant.

And you must've forgotten Yzerman's last season when his minutes were severely cut by Babcock, especially around mid-season.

When Legace was here, it was all about the healthy competition to win the starting job. Why should it be different now?

For the record, I'm not saying we should ditch Dom (as you implied in your rant), or that any determination for playoffs should be made in November. But when goalie A has a 9-1 record, a GAA of 1.80 and a SV % of .926 and goalie B has a 5-4 record a GAA of 2.89 and a SV% of .859 (lowest in the league last time I checked) it seems pretty clear to me who should be starting until things change.

Because of Dom's age, both he and Ozzy were going to split games. But right now Ozzy is hot and Dom is struggling, so I'd say treat Ozzy like the starter but still keep Dom in the rotation. Then it's up to him to get his game back together and earn the starting job back.

Don't you think he's capable of that?

Edited November 20, 2007 by haroldsnepsts

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

wow. you got all that from one sentence of mine?

Untwist your knickers. You've basically assumed a lot of things and put words in my mouth in your rant.

And you must've forgotten Yzerman's last season when his minutes were severely cut by Babcock, especially around mid-season.

When Legace was here, it was all about the healthy competition to win the starting job. Why should it be different now?

For the record, I'm not saying we should ditch Dom (as you implied in your rant), or that any determination for playoffs should be made in November. But when goalie A has a 9-1 record, a GAA of 1.80 and a SV % of .926 and goalie B has a 5-4 record a GAA of 2.89 and a SV% of .859 (lowest in the league last time I checked) it seems pretty clear to me who should be starting until things change

Because of Dom's age, both he and Ozzy were going to split games. But right now Ozzy is hot and Dom is struggling, so I'd say treat Ozzy like the starter but still keep Dom in the rotation. Then it's up to him to get his game back together and earn the starting job back.

Don't you think he's capable of that?

Oh! So now Osgood is Goalie "A" and Hasek is Goalie "B"! Why the hell couldn't you use Hasek as Goalie "A" and Ozzie as Goalie "B" in your scenario?

WTF's your problem Harold, you Hasek Hater!

Hey John, no, it's not a case of the Mondays, just tired of some of the imbeciles on LGW.

Hasek's slow start is longer than normal. Plus, I'm tired of that excuse. He has played terrible. Point: Had Hasek played his st. louis and hawks game against the jackets, we would have lost.

True, but who's to say he would've played his St. Louis and Hawks game against the Jackets.

FYI: For those of you who think I'm supporting Hasek, don't even bother with a response. *Right now* I feel Ozzie should be starting a little more than a 50/50 rotation.

Edited November 20, 2007 by Never Forget Mac #25

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

And you must've forgotten Yzerman's last season when his minutes were severely cut by Babcock, especially around mid-season.

Yzerman played the kind of time he was physically capable of playing, his minutes were never cut. You don't need to use playing time as a reward with veterans who have proven themselves as sound competators time and time again. You just need to give these guys the amount of playing time necessary to have them ready and able for the playoffs. Why can I make assumptions about your post? Well, you implied that Hasek wasn't earning his ice time. Fair enough. But do you really want Osgood playing the majority of the games? Does it really benefit the team in a long term sense? If that's not what you wan't, then why bother posting? Nobody has come on here asking to have Dom play 50-60+ games.

For the record, I'm not saying we should ditch Dom (as you implied in your rant), or that any determination for playoffs should be made in November. But when goalie A has a 9-1 record, a GAA of 1.80 and a SV % of .926 and goalie B has a 5-4 record a GAA of 2.89 and a SV% of .859 (lowest in the league last time I checked) it seems pretty clear to me who should be starting until things change.

The point people are making is that things WONT change if we are starting one over the other. How is Hasek supposed to regain his confidence from the bench? That makes no sense. We need BOTH healthy and confident in time for the playoffs. Limiting one of the two does not accomplish this. Not even the most arrogant of Hasek fans have come on here asking for the man to play 50-60 games this season, and yet your comment implies that Hasek doesn't deserve ice time. What does starting Osgood the majority of the games accomplish? Everyone here knows that the regular season will be essentially split between the two goalies. The only reason Hasek got so many more starts last year is because Osgood got injured. Yet, people are implying Hasek needs to be benched in favor of Osgood. What exactly does that achieve? You're naming statistics of wins and GAA, it's irrelivant as long as we're in the playoffs and in a good position. So, pretell, if I was ranting and raving, what was the point of your comment if not to imply Hasek doesn't deserve to play? What was the point of this whole damn thread?

[OsGOD 3]

The point people are making is that things WONT change if we are starting one over the other. How is Hasek supposed to regain his confidence from the bench? That makes no sense. We need BOTH healthy and confident in time for the playoffs. Limiting one of the two does not accomplish this. Not even the most arrogant of Hasek fans have come on here asking for the man to play 50-60 games this season, and yet your comment implies that Hasek doesn't deserve ice time. What does starting Osgood the majority of the games accomplish? Everyone here knows that the regular season will be essentially split between the two goalies. The only reason Hasek got so many more starts last year is because Osgood got injured. Yet, people are implying Hasek needs to be benched in favor of Osgood. What exactly does that achieve? You're naming statistics of wins and GAA, it's irrelivant as long as we're in the playoffs and in a good position. So, pretell, if I was ranting and raving, what was the point of your comment if not to imply Hasek doesn't deserve to play? What was the point of this whole damn thread?

Hasek is supposed to regain his confidence the same way ozzie had too.... make the most out of the least amount of starts!

85.9% if only Save% was graded on the same scale as school hasek would be doing wicked sweet! Right now he needs a teacher with a HUGE curve to make the grade in the NHL.

The point of this thread... is nothing but pure FUN! At least i am enjoying myself ... any other takers?

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Yzerman played the kind of time he was physically capable of playing, his minutes were never cut. You don't need to use playing time as a reward with veterans who have proven themselves as sound competators time and time again. You just need to give these guys the amount of playing time necessary to have them ready and able for the playoffs. Why can I make assumptions about your post? Well, you implied that Hasek wasn't earning his ice time. Fair enough. But do you really want Osgood playing the majority of the games? Does it really benefit the team in a long term sense? If that's not what you wan't, then why bother posting? Nobody has come on here asking to have Dom play 50-60+ games.

The point people are making is that things WONT change if we are starting one over the other. How is Hasek supposed to regain his confidence from the bench? That makes no sense. We need BOTH healthy and confident in time for the playoffs. Limiting one of the two does not accomplish this. Not even the most arrogant of Hasek fans have come on here asking for the man to play 50-60 games this season, and yet your comment implies that Hasek doesn't deserve ice time. What does starting Osgood the majority of the games accomplish? Everyone here knows that the regular season will be essentially split between the two goalies. The only reason Hasek got so many more starts last year is because Osgood got injured. Yet, people are implying Hasek needs to be benched in favor of Osgood. What exactly does that achieve? You're naming statistics of wins and GAA, it's irrelivant as long as we're in the playoffs and in a good position. So, pretell, if I was ranting and raving, what was the point of your comment if not to imply Hasek doesn't deserve to play? What was the point of this whole damn thread?

wow. I sense much anger in you.

As for the point of the whole thread, I can't really say. I didn't create it.

But the relatively simple point of my post was mainly that Ozzy is hot right now and Dom isn't. I think the starts were always going to be 60/40 or possible even closer to 50/50 during the regular season. Since Ozzy is playing well and Dom isn't, I'd give him the bulk of the games RIGHT NOW until Dom starts playing better.

You think it's irrelevant when the team's starting goaltender has among the worst numbers in the league? To me, that's cause for concern. (and as I've already said a thousand times, that's not to say he can't improve. But a 42 year old goalie with crappy numbers is a concern).

If the situation was reversed and Ozzy had terrible numbers, but was still slated as the starter, how would that sit with you?

It's so hard to even talk about this because anything I say gets taken to the absolute extreme.

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

Hasek is supposed to regain his confidence the same way ozzie had too.... make the most out of the least amount of starts!

85.9% if only Save% was graded on the same scale as school hasek would be doing wicked sweet! Right now he needs a teacher with a HUGE curve to make the grade in the NHL.

The point of this thread... is nothing but pure FUN! At least i am enjoying myself ... any other takers?

Osgood was always meant to split time with Hasek, the only reason he played such a small number of games last season is because of his injury... They're both old guys now, overworking them doesn't benefit us, regardless of who is playing better. With Legacy and Osgood it was different because Legacy wasn't Hasek's age and didn't have a history of injuries, we could afford to give him a healthy majority of the starts and still expect him ready and capable come playoffs.

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

wow. I sense much anger in you.

I'm going to pretend I didn't read that because otherwise I'm going to have to beat up someone significantly smaller than me. (and before anyone goes there... yes... sarcasm) No no, the only thing in me is liquidy and entoxicating. And in my defence, It's not afternoon where I'm living (it's almost midnight). Thought I don't see anything particularly aggressive about my last post.

You think it's irrelevant when the team's starting goaltender has among the worst numbers in the league? To me, that's cause for concern. (and as I've already said a thousand times, that's not to say he can't improve. But a 42 year old goalie with crappy numbers is a concern).

If you're the top in the west, then yes. I'm not denying that Hasek hasn't been playing well, I'm merely saying that we're in a position where we can afford to let him work out his kinks in game without having to worry about risking our season. It's better to continue splitting time with Osgood so we can see whether or not he can still play now, rather than still having him as an uncertainty as we near the playoffs. Our staff and players have spent the bulk of their time since 2002 talking about how to avoid hitting their peak mid-season. Since, when measuring our performance, this hasn't been achieved, I'd much rather not sweat it now. I could go through this thread (and a few of the other ones that have essentially housed the same discussion) and pull out plenty of "dom is done" style posts, and while I used your one-liner as the groundworks for my posts, I didn't intend it for your eyes only.

[OsGOD 3]

I'm not denying that Hasek hasn't been playing well, I'm merely saying that we're in a position where we can afford to let him work out his kinks in game without having to worry about risking our season.

Yup its called suck it up elite goalie and welcome to GRAND RAPIDS... yeah baby!

Bring up Howard!

Edited November 20, 2007 by OsGOD