THN says Lidstrom best European player

[auxlepli 17]

And the second best blueliner ever.

http://www.thehockeynews.com/articles/1152...f-all-time.html

I tend to agree on both accounts.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

I'd have to put Harvey ahead of Lidstrom. Harvey changed the game of hockey around more than any other defenseman in history, including Bobby Orr. He won 7 Norris trophies in a row, and last time I checked, 7 is more than 5. I'd put Lidstrom 3rd behind Orr and Harvey.

As for best European ever, I'd have to agree, although a lot of those Soviet Red Army players never played in the NHL, so it's not fair to judge how great they were. However, his consistency puts him above any other European player who played in the league, with Jagr being a close 2nd on my list.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

He's definately first. Sundin and Fedorov would be 2nd and 3rd.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

He's definately first. Sundin and Fedorov would be 2nd and 3rd.

You'd have Sundin ahead of Jagr and Kurri? Based on what?

[toby91_ca 620]

Lidstrom is getting up there, but no way do I agree with having him at #2 all-time. At a minimum, Harvey and Bourque are ahead of him.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

You'd have Sundin ahead of Jagr and Kurri? Based on what?

Jagr and Kurri are in the top 5 too. I just think Sundin is the better player.

[Guest DetroitIan]

THN is very correct.

[eva unit zero 271]

Lids is the best European player ever in the NHL.

As far as defensemen, he's 4th or 5th at best among NHLers, with Orr, Bourque, and Harvey ahead of him. A few more years at the top and MAYBE he can move into 3rd or possibly even 2nd, but not yet.

[irishtemper14+25 11]

i think him saying he is second is presuming he will play sweet for another 5 yrs

[b.shanafan14 733]

I agree with the article. Bobby Orr is definately #1 and Lidstrom #2. Lidstrom's defensive abilities are incredible and effortless. And as far as Norris Trophies are concerned, Lidstrom was overlooked for a long time, and even when nominated and deserving more than others, got runner-up a few times. Lidstrom might not have overwhelming offensive numbers, which takes away from his being seen as the best, but that is also because he maintains defensive responsibility first and foremost, while still being one of the best QBs ever to pass the puck.... lots of argument available on the who best defenseman after Orr part, but Lidstrom is definately the best European ever to play the sport....

[puckbags 863]

Lids is the best European player ever in the NHL.

As far as defensemen, he's 4th or 5th at best among NHLers, with Orr, Bourque, and Harvey ahead of him. A few more years at the top and MAYBE he can move into 3rd or possibly even 2nd, but not yet.

Amen brother, good post

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

Lidstrom is getting up there, but no way do I agree with having him at #2 all-time. At a minimum, Harvey and Bourque are ahead of him.

I'm sorry, I don't think Bourque is ahead of Lidstrom. They have the same number of Norris trophies, and Lidstrom has played 7 less seasons than Bourque. Lidstrom also has the Conn Smyth and 3 cups (without having to switch teams for them). That being said, I think Bourque is top 10 all-time, perhaps even top 5.. but I think you can easily make a case to say Lidstrom is the better. I think you can make a case for Fetisov being up there too (often called the Russian Orr). However, the article wasn't stating that Lidstrom is #2 all time as of yet, it did say "when all is said and done" that it wouldn't be a stretch for him to be behind Orr.

As for best Euro.. I'm not sure, Kurri, Jagr, Hasek... Loads of good Europeans. And as previously mentioned, if the Russians had been playing in the league all this time they'd get more credit. Imagine Larionov if he came into this league when he was young.

[Guest DetroitIan]

Lidstrom is getting up there, but no way do I agree with having him at #2 all-time. At a minimum, Harvey and Bourque are ahead of him.

Harvey, yes. Orr, yes. Bourque, no way. Lidstrom right now, is already ahead of Bourque. If Lidstrom has 2-3 more succesful seasons left in the tank, then he could possibly contend for best d-man ever. But as of right now, there are still two guys ahead of him. And Bourque isn't one of them. Top 5 maybe. But certainly not ahead of Nick. Just look at the stats, games played, awards, and Cups. Then add in the fact that Nick has 2-3(maybe even more) more years to add to his stats, awards, and Cups.

Edited December 2, 2007 by DetroitIan

[eva unit zero 271]

Harvey, yes. Orr, yes. Bourque, no way. Lidstrom right now, is already ahead of Bourque. If Lidstrom has 2-3 more succesful seasons left in the tank, then he could possibly contend for best d-man ever. But as of right now, there are still two guys ahead of him. And Bourque isn't one of them. Top 5 maybe. But certainly not ahead of Nick. Just look at the stats, games played, awards, and Cups. Then add in the fact that Nick has 2-3(maybe even more) more years to add to his stats, awards, and Cups.

Bourque was an elite defenseman his entire career, and was a postseason All-Star in each of his first seventeen seasons, and was selected in 19 of 22 seasons. Lidstrom has been named a postseason All-Star eight of the past nine seasons, and eight times in thirteen seasons overall. So while it's possible for Lidstrom to finish with a better career than Bourque, he doesn't have it yet.

[b.shanafan14 733]

As for best Euro.. I'm not sure, Kurri, Jagr, Hasek... Loads of good Europeans. And as previously mentioned, if the Russians had been playing in the league all this time they'd get more credit. Imagine Larionov if he came into this league when he was young.

I think when it is all said and done, Lidstrom will end up with a better career than the mentioned Euros, Kurri, Jagr, Hasek.... this because of his absolute dominance of the sport from the defensive end. If his season thus far is any indication, Lidstrom is looking at Norris #6 with more years to play.

I do agree with your point about the russians tho... I thought in the big picture Larionov should have beat out Stevens or McInnis for this years Hall of Fame class. This being because it is the Hockey HOF, not the NHL HOF, and I don't believe they put enough stock in what Igor did for the sport of hockey internationally and making way for the Datsyuks and Ovechkins and Kovalchuks. As well as being a superstar both in Russian and the NHL.

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

I think when it is all said and done, Lidstrom will end up with a better career than the mentioned Euros, Kurri, Jagr, Hasek.... this because of his absolute dominance of the sport from the defensive end. If his season thus far is any indication, Lidstrom is looking at Norris #6 with more years to play.

I do agree with your point about the russians tho... I thought in the big picture Larionov should have beat out Stevens or McInnis for this years Hall of Fame class. This being because it is the Hockey HOF, not the NHL HOF, and I don't believe they put enough stock in what Igor did for the sport of hockey internationally and making way for the Datsyuks and Ovechkins and Kovalchuks. As well as being a superstar both in Russian and the NHL.

Well, Lids will have the most cups for sure, but one could make an argument for Hasek.. In personal awards, no other goalie in our generation can match Hasek. That being said (and tho I'm replying to ur post, i'm not replying to u with this comment), I don't consider points as a supreme indicator with defencemen... the key to a defenceman is.. DEFENCE. Offensively, Bourque is better than Lidstrom, but Lidstrom is better on defence hands down... and while scoring has always been essential for anyone in the "greatest" defenceman debate, I think in the case of close debates the better defensive player should get the nod, and I think that's without a doubt Lidstrom.

Also, the HOF has always been very bias to players in the NHL... At this point there are only 3 soviet players in the HOF (Fetisov, Kharlamov, and Tretiak)...and considering their dominance on the international stage, they are terribly underrepresented. Who knows, if Fetisov never went to the NHL he probably wouldn't even be in.

Edited December 2, 2007 by RedWings Gone Wild

[BeeRYCE 2]

Wait is this best Euro to ever play in the NHL? If so then it can be a case, but if it's best European hockey player ever... You could include Tretiak, Kharlamov, Fetisov, or Larionov, maybe others.

[b.shanafan14 733]

Well, Lids will have the most cups for sure, but one could make an argument for Hasek.. In personal awards, no other goalie in our generation can match Hasek. That being said (and tho I'm replying to ur post, i'm not replying to u with this comment), I don't consider points as a supreme indicator with defencemen... the key to a defenceman is.. DEFENCE. Offensively, Bourque is better than Lidstrom, but Lidstrom is better on defence hands down... and while scoring has always been essential for anyone in the "greatest" defenceman debate, I think in the case of close debates the better defensive player should get the nod, and I think that's without a doubt Lidstrom.

Also, the HOF has always been very bias to players in the NHL... At this point there are only 3 soviet players in the HOF (Fetisov, Kharlamov, and Tretiak)...and considering their dominance on the international stage, they are terribly underrepresented. Who knows, if Fetisov never went to the NHL he probably wouldn't even be in.

I agree completely, I had posted previously in this thread along the same lines about scoring vs. defensive play

I agree with the article. Bobby Orr is definately #1 and Lidstrom #2. Lidstrom's defensive abilities are incredible and effortless. And as far as Norris Trophies are concerned, Lidstrom was overlooked for a long time, and even when nominated and deserving more than others, got runner-up a few times. Lidstrom might not have overwhelming offensive numbers, which takes away from his being seen as the best, but that is also because he maintains defensive responsibility first and foremost, while still being one of the best QBs ever to pass the puck.... lots of argument available on the who best defenseman after Orr part, but Lidstrom is definately the best European ever to play the sport....

But at least we are on the same page

[wingnut40 176]

Best European, best current player, and second best defenceman...I guess

[toby91_ca 620]

Harvey, yes. Orr, yes. Bourque, no way. Lidstrom right now, is already ahead of Bourque. If Lidstrom has 2-3 more succesful seasons left in the tank, then he could possibly contend for best d-man ever. But as of right now, there are still two guys ahead of him. And Bourque isn't one of them. Top 5 maybe. But certainly not ahead of Nick. Just look at the stats, games played, awards, and Cups. Then add in the fact that Nick has 2-3(maybe even more) more years to add to his stats, awards, and Cups.

I find it odd that you use "stats" as an argument for Lidstrom over Bourque. Is it just me, or does Bourque have almost double the points that Lidstrom has?

Oh and as someone already mentioned, Bourque was a 1st or 2nd team allstar 19 times, Lidstrom 8 (he won't be catching Bourque there, that's for sure).

[Guest DetroitIan]

I find it odd that you use "stats" as an argument for Lidstrom over Bourque. Is it just me, or does Bourque have almost double the points that Lidstrom has?

Wow, I really thought I made it quite clear to look at the stats, ALONG WITH GAMES PLAYED. Did your eyes neglect to read that part of the post? Bourque as of RIGHT NOW, has played a hell of alot more games than Nick has. Im saying, based on the fact that Lidstrom has played way less games(over 500 less games), look at stats, awards, and STANLEY CUPS. Like I said before, Bourque is top 5, but he's not ahead of Nick Lidstrom. He's not now, and he won't be when Nick retires. Not to mention Nick will SURELY pass Bourque in Norris Trophys(maybe even by a couple). And that's by leaps and bounds, the most prestigious award a defenseman can receive.

Edited December 3, 2007 by DetroitIan

[toby91_ca 620]

Wow, I really thought I made it quite clear to look at the stats, ALONG WITH GAMES PLAYED. Did your eyes neglect to read that part of the post? Bourque as of RIGHT NOW, has played a hell of alot more games than Nick has. Im saying, based on the fact that Lidstrom has played way less games(over 500 less games), look at stats, awards, and STANLEY CUPS. Like I said before, Bourque is top 5, but he's not ahead of Nick Lidstrom. He's not now, and he won't be when Nick retires. Not to mention Nick will SURELY pass Bourque in Norris Trophys(maybe even by a couple). And that's by leaps and bounds, the most prestigious award a defenseman can receive.

I don't see how games played really makes your argument better here, except for the fact that he has the same number of Norris's in less games played (though, that has a little to do with the competition).

In terms of per game stats, Lidstrom still does not compare to Bourque (0.17gpg and 0.74ppg) compared to Bourque (0.25gpg and 0.98ppg).

It is also very difficult to argue against the 19 post-season allstar selections, which suggests that Bourque was the best or second best defenseman in the league almost his entire career. The same cannot be said for Lidstrom.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Hi.......this is the kettle calling the pot...........You're Black.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

I don't see how games played really makes your argument better here, except for the fact that he has the same number of Norris's in less games played (though, that has a little to do with the competition).

In terms of per game stats, Lidstrom still does not compare to Bourque (0.17gpg and 0.74ppg) compared to Bourque (0.25gpg and 0.98ppg).

It is also very difficult to argue against the 19 post-season allstar selections, which suggests that Bourque was the best or second best defenseman in the league almost his entire career. The same cannot be said for Lidstrom.

Stats aren't everything. Lidstrom is the best defenseman in the league the last 7 seasons or so. Bourque shared Norris trophies with other guys in his career, like Leetch, Chelios, and Coffey. At no point was Bourque far and away the best defenseman in the leauge for as long as Nick has been. Likewise, stats aren't everything because Coffey had lot more points than Lidstrom, so would you rank him ahead of Lidstrom too. How about Harvey? His points per game average is nothing compared to anybody. If you were ranking things, he wouldn't even be one of the top 50 defenseman of all time. The point is that different generations have different stats, and the game was more wide open when Bourque played. This isn't baseball where all you look at is stats. There's other factors to judge.

[toby91_ca 620]

Stats aren't everything. Lidstrom is the best defenseman in the league the last 7 seasons or so. Bourque shared Norris trophies with other guys in his career, like Leetch, Chelios, and Coffey. At no point was Bourque far and away the best defenseman in the leauge for as long as Nick has been. Likewise, stats aren't everything because Coffey had lot more points than Lidstrom, so would you rank him ahead of Lidstrom too. How about Harvey? His points per game average is nothing compared to anybody. If you were ranking things, he wouldn't even be one of the top 50 defenseman of all time. The point is that different generations have different stats, and the game was more wide open when Bourque played. This isn't baseball where all you look at is stats. There's other factors to judge.

Instead of blindly reading my posts on this topic you need to look at the context. I was in no way pointing out that Bourque's stats are better, therefore he is better. Obviously, it is not that simple, otherwise, we'd never need to have these discussions, we'd just look at the scoring list. My point about stats was that someone mentioned stats as a reason why Lidstrom was better than Bourque, which I found odd......that's all, simple as that.

Stats do mean something though and with his significant point lead over Lidstrom, combined with the fact that he was the 1st or 2nd team allstar 19 times compared to Lidstrom's 8, I have him ahead.

With respect to Lidstrom being the best defenseman in the league for the past 7 years or so and Bourque never had that type of streak since he shared the Norris with a few other guys.......last time I checked, Lidstrom did not win the Norris the last 7 straight years. You can argue he was the best each year if you want, but you can't then say Bourque wasn't simply because he didn't win the Norris every year.

I have yet to see someone try to deflect away the 19 post-season allstar selections vs. 8.......

Edited December 3, 2007 by toby91_ca