Best players ever?

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Does anyone know why there's such a a disparity between Left Wing and Right Wing in NHL history? Other than Bobby Hull, there's no other Left Winger that I'd put in my top 25.

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

Does anyone know why there's such a a disparity between Left Wing and Right Wing in NHL history? Other than Bobby Hull, there's no other Left Winger that I'd put in my top 25.

No Ted Lindsey?

[eva unit zero 271]

Where I think you go wrong in this argument is saying that Roy's career is a result of longevity, while the other guys only played a short career, so their stats are more valuable.

The longevity of Roy's career undoubtedly padded his stats, but what's to say that if any of those guys played longer that they could have held up those same standards?

One thing that jumps out at me is over the course of his Roy missed the playoffs only one season, that's 18 out of 19 tries. Don't tell me he never carried a team. That stat alone provides you with enough proof that he did just that.

In that case, I submit for consideration one Christopher Osgood, who has a better career win/loss record, has never missed the playoffs, and has never had a losing season. Ozzie also has never had a GAA over 3, which Roy has posted twice. Ozzie clearly carried his team more than Roy did, since Osgood NEVER missed the postseason.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

No Ted Lindsey?

Not in my top 25 all time. All the top forwards I can think of would be centers or right wingers, with Hull being the excepiton.

[lfd250 1]

Wayne Gretzky as the greatest of all time???? :puke:

Let's see

1. No one dare hit the golden child (Hence all the scoring titles.) (Imagine if Dats could come and go without being hit)

2. One way player. (Never won a Selke) (Show in his coaching, Phoenix is the biggest cherry picking team)

3. Never stuck up for his teammates. (Always shakes head when there was a fight)

Ask yourself:

Would he make it in todays game?

Would he have made it in the early years?

We know he wouldn't have made it when all the clutching was going on and the left wing lock?

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

In that case, I submit for consideration one Christopher Osgood, who has a better career win/loss record, has never missed the playoffs, and has never had a losing season. Ozzie also has never had a GAA over 3, which Roy has posted twice. Ozzie clearly carried his team more than Roy did, since Osgood NEVER missed the postseason.

My arguement had nothing to do with who carried his team more. Simply that to say Roy never carried his team is foolish. Yes, Osgood did carry the Islander team to the playoffs.

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

Wayne Gretzky as the greatest of all time???? :puke:

Let's see

1. No one dare hit the golden child (Hence all the scoring titles.) (Imagine if Dats could come and go without being hit)

2. One way player. (Never won a Selke) (Show in his coaching, Phoenix is the biggest cherry picking team)

3. Never stuck up for his teammates. (Always shakes head when there was a fight)

Ask yourself:

Would he make it in todays game?

Would he have made it in the early years?

We know he wouldn't have made it when all the clutching was going on and the left wing lock?

Would Lemieux have made it in the early days? Would Sawchuk or Plante be able to play in today's game? Comparing generations is listening to two blind me argue which color their shirts are. It's a pointless debate. The only thing we have to compare are stats. Given Gretzky's stats, there is no doubt in my mind that if he grew up in the same era as Crosby did, he would be just as if not more dominate than Crosby. A few things you have to understand...

1. Gretzky grew up with a completely different style of hockey than today's stars did.

2. If not for Gretzky, Crosby isn't doing the things he is doing. Gretzky revolutionized the game.

3. Just for S & G's, how do you think Crosby would do with all the clutching and grabbing going on and the left wing lock? A lot of what Crosby does is a direct result of not allowing defenders to clutch and grab.

[shadow47 1]

Aside from the fact that it is silly and impossible to compare players of vastly different eras (due to the disparity in systems, fitness, equipment, etc.), I'm pretty sure there are precious few people posting lists that have actually seen the players they are ranking play. Sure, proclaim Terry Sawchuk the best goaltender ever, you've seen five clips and some golden oldies cling to the belief that the keeper of their era bests those from their kids', that's all you need, right? I think it's so absurd to rank players you're not familiar with on reputation alone, no doubt SOMEONE on here has seen some of these greats of the past, but come on...how many 60-70 year olds browse LGW.com? Not many I'd guess. Here's my lists of players I've actually seen and been familiar with:

Forwards:

1. Lemieux

2. Yzerman

3. Messier

4. Neely

5. Gretz

6. Jagr

7. Hull

8. Selanne

9. Bure

D:

1. Niklas

2. Bourque

3. Cheli

4. Craig Ludwig

G:

1. Hasek

2. Roy

3. Marty

4. Richter

[eva unit zero 271]

My arguement had nothing to do with who carried his team more. Simply that to say Roy never carried his team is foolish. Yes, Osgood did carry the Islander team to the playoffs.

It's a good thing that I didn't say Roy never carried his team then, isn't it? I said that he never carried a bad team to a Cup. Factual statement; the only bad team he played on missed the postseason entirely. The two Cup runs he gets credited with carrying a bad team are his two worst regular seasons where the team was still one of the best teams i nthe league, and only played one opponent in the playoffs that finished with more points in the regular season; both times it was a team that finished with about the same number of points (Calgary 89 to Montreal 87 in 1986, Quebec 104 to Montreal 102 in 1993) so given the competition, Montreal SHOULD have won those Cups. Calgary had a rookie goaltender in net as well, and was no better a team han Montreal. Quebec was a team that hadn't yet learned how to win, and their great regular season was the result of a roster of great individual players that still needed to develop chemistry and grit before they could have success in the playoffs.

If you credit Roy with carrying those Montreal teams to the Cup singlehandedly, then you have to do so with any goaltender of a team that played at least one series without home ice advantage. This would include the following goaltenders during Roy's career: Patrick Roy (1986, 1993, 1996), Grant Fuhr (1988), Bill Ranford (1990), Tom Barrasso (1991, 1992), Martin Brodeur (1995, 2000, 2003), Mike Vernon (1997), and Chris Osgood (1998). The only times the Cup-winner had home ice the entire time? Mike Vernon(1989), Mike Richter (1994), Ed Belfour (1999), Patrick Roy (2001) and Dominik Hasek (2002) never began a series on the road in a Cup year. That's not a long list. Roy played three series in four Cup seasons on the road; Barrasso played four in two years. Is Barrasso just that much better than Roy that he was able to carry such an obviously inferior team to two consecutive Cups, something Roy never achieved? Or is it just that you have to have team and goaltender playing well at the right time to win the Cup, and there is no such thing as a goaltender 'carrying a bad team to the Cup' because bad teams DON'T WIN THE CUP, PERIOD.

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

Aside from the fact that it is silly and impossible to compare players of vastly different eras (due to the disparity in systems, fitness, equipment, etc.), I'm pretty sure there are precious few people posting lists that have actually seen the players they are ranking play. Sure, proclaim Terry Sawchuk the best goaltender ever, you've seen five clips and some golden oldies cling to the belief that the keeper of their era bests those from their kids', that's all you need, right? I think it's so absurd to rank players you're not familiar with on reputation alone, no doubt SOMEONE on here has seen some of these greats of the past, but come on...how many 60-70 year olds browse LGW.com? Not many I'd guess. Here's my lists of players I've actually seen and been familiar with:

Forwards:

1. Lemieux

2. Yzerman

3. Messier

4. Neely

5. Gretz

6. Jagr

7. Hull

8. Selanne

9. Bure

D:

1. Niklas

2. Bourque

3. Cheli

4. Craig Ludwig

G:

1. Hasek

2. Roy

3. Marty

4. Richter

While I understand not putting Gretz as number 1, as some people argue for Lemieux, Howe or Orr. Why put him below Messier, Yzerman, and Neely? No way Neely is better. I could see the argument for Messier being a better leader, or Yzerman a better two way player, but come one, he is better than 5th!

Craig Ludwig? Sure he won a few Cups, but what else? I mean, to put him before Neids, Coffey, Blake, Murphy, MacInnis, Leech, Housley, Pronger, hell even Rafalski, I just don't understand.

Richter? He had a few good seasons but nothing Hextall, KolzigBelfour or Joseph didn't, except win a Cup. Not to mention Roy, or Khabibulin.

[eva unit zero 271]

Aside from the fact that it is silly and impossible to compare players of vastly different eras (due to the disparity in systems, fitness, equipment, etc.), I'm pretty sure there are precious few people posting lists that have actually seen the players they are ranking play. Sure, proclaim Terry Sawchuk the best goaltender ever, you've seen five clips and some golden oldies cling to the belief that the keeper of their era bests those from their kids', that's all you need, right? I think it's so absurd to rank players you're not familiar with on reputation alone, no doubt SOMEONE on here has seen some of these greats of the past, but come on...how many 60-70 year olds browse LGW.com? Not many I'd guess. Here's my lists of players I've actually seen and been familiar with:

Forwards:

1. Lemieux

2. Yzerman

3. Messier

4. Neely

5. Gretz

6. Jagr

7. Hull

8. Selanne

9. Bure

D:

1. Niklas

2. Bourque

3. Cheli

4. Craig Ludwig

G:

1. Hasek

2. Roy

3. Marty

4. Richter

Your inclusion of Neely, Richter, and Ludwig completely invalidates your list. Ludwig wasn't even the fourth best defensive defenseman in the league at ANY POINT IN HIS CAREER. Richter was never an elite goaltender, and Neely was no better a power forward than Gary Roberts or Brendan Shanahan, both of whom were able to play at a high level much longer than Cam.

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

It's a good thing that I didn't say Roy never carried his team then, isn't it? I said that he never carried a bad team to a Cup. Factual statement; the only bad team he played on missed the postseason entirely. The two Cup runs he gets credited with carrying a bad team are his two worst regular seasons where the team was still one of the best teams i nthe league, and only played one opponent in the playoffs that finished with more points in the regular season; both times it was a team that finished with about the same number of points (Calgary 89 to Montreal 87 in 1986, Quebec 104 to Montreal 102 in 1993) so given the competition, Montreal SHOULD have won those Cups. Calgary had a rookie goaltender in net as well, and was no better a team han Montreal. Quebec was a team that hadn't yet learned how to win, and their great regular season was the result of a roster of great individual players that still needed to develop chemistry and grit before they could have success in the playoffs.

If you credit Roy with carrying those Montreal teams to the Cup singlehandedly, then you have to do so with any goaltender of a team that played at least one series without home ice advantage. This would include the following goaltenders during Roy's career: Patrick Roy (1986, 1993, 1996), Grant Fuhr (1988), Bill Ranford (1990), Tom Barrasso (1991, 1992), Martin Brodeur (1995, 2000, 2003), Mike Vernon (1997), and Chris Osgood (1998). The only times the Cup-winner had home ice the entire time? Mike Vernon(1989), Mike Richter (1994), Ed Belfour (1999), Patrick Roy (2001) and Dominik Hasek (2002) never began a series on the road in a Cup year. That's not a long list. Roy played three series in four Cup seasons on the road; Barrasso played four in two years. Is Barrasso just that much better than Roy that he was able to carry such an obviously inferior team to two consecutive Cups, something Roy never achieved? Or is it just that you have to have team and goaltender playing well at the right time to win the Cup, and there is no such thing as a goaltender 'carrying a bad team to the Cup' because bad teams DON'T WIN THE CUP, PERIOD.

Truth be told the not carrying his team rebuttal wasn't aimed at you, I just forgot to include the post I was replying to.

This was the comment I was responding to. "There are some great defensemen and defensively minded players on those two teams, and if we're going to dock Broduer points for having great defensemen around him, then the same needs to be done for Roy."

However, I never said Roy carried his team to the Cup. I just said he carried his team. 18 out of 19 seasons in the playoffs. He didn't have a team that deserved to be there every year.

[FinRedWing 172]

Inspired by the Lidstrom thread, I thought we could have a discussion on who the five best players at each position were/are, all-time

Apparently your idea of having discussion is bashing nearly everyone's posts.

Someone has Ludwig at #4,so what? Ludwig might be fourth best defenseman to him and there's nothing you can say or do about it.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

[timothy1997 0]

Inspired by the Lidstrom thread, I thought we could have a discussion on who the five best players at each position were/are, all-time. So here's mine.

Center:

1) Wayne Gretzky

2) Mario Lemieux

3) Steve Yzerman

4) Jean Beliveau

5) Mark Messier

Left Wing:

1) Bobby Hull

2) Ted Lindsay

3) Luc Robitaille

4) Johnny Bucyk

5) Brendan Shanahan

Right Wing:

1) Gordie Howe

2) Maurice Richard

3) Mike Bossy

4) Guy Lafleur

5) Joe Malone

Defense:

1) Bobby Orr

2) Doug Harvey

3) Ray Bourque

4) Nicklas Lidstrom

5) Eddie Shore

Goaltender:

1) Terry Sawchuk

2) Jacques Plante

3) Ken Dryden

4) Bill Durnan

5) Martin Brodeur

Wow! I actually agree with most of this list. That in itself is a rarity when you look at eva and my history in the college football thread. Instead of making my own list which would be very similar to yours, I will just comment on players I think are overrated and those that deserve to be there.

Centers---Yzerman might be a little high at 3 but definately in the top 5. Beliveau and Messier would probably be 3, 4 and then Yzerman in my list. I might put Mike Modano in my list.

LW---Luc IMO is the best LW but hard to disagree with Bobby Hull and Ted Lindsay ranked higher. Different era.

RW---I might take away Joe Malone and put in Jari Kurri. As far as the rest of the 5, I am ok with it. Jagr is also close to the list but I cant put him in my top 5.

D---Why do people love Bourque so much. Is it because he stayed with the Bruins so long. Lidstrom is a better D-man than Bourque IMO, hence I would rank him higher. Also Paul Coffey might make my list over Shore. As far as Orr at #1, I totally agree. If I had a greatest player ever in hockey list, Orr would probably be #1 with Gretzky #2.

Goalies---This is the part of your list where i see a glarring hole. Roy. Love him or hate him, I still think he is in the top 5 of goaltenders of all time. Not willing to put him ahead of Sawchuk, but he deserves to be in the top 5.

Now that I gave Roy some love, i feel sick so i am gonna go and lay down.

[toby91_ca 620]

Apparently your idea of having discussion is bashing nearly everyone's posts.

Someone has Ludwig at #4,so what? Ludwig might be fourth best defenseman to him and there's nothing you can say or do about it.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

True, but what would be the point of posting your opinion if you don't want others to comment on it?? That makes absolutely zero sense to me. If that was the case, everyone would just post their lists and it woudl be a waste of time. Oh, unless the allowable comments are something like "oooh, great list", "I agree with everything you said", etc.

Everyone has the right to their own opinion, which basically means that someone's opninion maybe different from someone else's, therefore, they should be able to argue why they don't agree with someone else's opinion. I don't see the problem with that.

[FinRedWing 172]

True, but what would be the point of posting your opinion if you don't want others to comment on it?? That makes absolutely zero sense to me. If that was the case, everyone would just post their lists and it woudl be a waste of time. Oh, unless the allowable comments are something like "oooh, great list", "I agree with everything you said", etc.

Everyone has the right to their own opinion, which basically means that someone's opninion maybe different from someone else's, therefore, they should be able to argue why they don't agree with someone else's opinion. I don't see the problem with that.

Very true,but eva's taking it to the new level, that's all.

I'd love to see him agreeing with someone,just for once.

He should've mentioned in the start of the thread, that everyone's free to post their own list-although they're wrong.

Edited December 6, 2007 by FinRedWing

[eva unit zero 271]

Apparently your idea of having discussion is bashing nearly everyone's posts.

Someone has Ludwig at #4,so what? Ludwig might be fourth best defenseman to him and there's nothing you can say or do about it.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Mark Tinordi, Chris Chelios, Sylvain Lefebvre, Richard Matvichuk, Derian Hatcher were all teammates of Ludwig who were better defensive defensemen. Lefebvre and Matvichuk are the only ones on the list Ludwig really could compete with offensively. Ranking Ludwig fourth is an attempt to pay homage to true stay at home defensemen...but it is a mistake. Perhaps I was a little harsh in my choice of words...but Ludwig isn't even the fourth best defensemen among guys who played on Ludwig's teams. The inclusion of Richter must be heavily based on seeing him only in the 96 World Cup and 2002 Olympics, because he rarely distinguished himself from the second tier of goaltenders in the NHL, and was never a Vezina contender at any point in his career. Much like those who considered Bill Ranford an elite goaltender in the early 90s because of his 1990 Cup run, or those who considered Cam Ward one of the best goaltenders in the league the middle of last season. And if you haven't noticed, I have spent much of the time in this thread defending my 'crazy' opinion regarding Patrick Roy. Calling me out for slamming someone else is a bit hypocritical when you've been slamming me.

[eva unit zero 271]

EDIT: Double post.

Edited December 6, 2007 by eva unit zero

[BeeRYCE 2]

Forwards:

1. Lemieux

2. Yzerman

3. Messier

4. Neely

5. Gretz

6. Jagr

7. Hull

8. Selanne

9. Bure

D:

1. Niklas

2. Bourque

3. Cheli

4. Craig Ludwig

G:

1. Hasek

2. Roy

3. Marty

4. Richter

So many things wrong, I don't know where to start...

But, on forward Messier and NEELY over Gretzky? No sorry. Not including Howe, but instead, SELANNE AND BURE? No sorry. The biggest thing about this list is not even including ORR, it's impossible. Now Richter over guys like Sawchuk, Dryden, Plante, and others?

I know opinions are opinions. Sure it's arguable to consider Lemieux and Yzerman over Gretzky depending on your criteria, it's arguable to consider Hasek the best over depending on your criteria, hell it's even arguable to consider Lids the best, again, depending on your criteria. But what in the hell is your criteria for this list?

[tony 3]

Aside from the fact that it is silly and impossible to compare players of vastly different eras (due to the disparity in systems, fitness, equipment, etc.), I'm pretty sure there are precious few people posting lists that have actually seen the players they are ranking play. Sure, proclaim Terry Sawchuk the best goaltender ever, you've seen five clips and some golden oldies cling to the belief that the keeper of their era bests those from their kids', that's all you need, right? I think it's so absurd to rank players you're not familiar with on reputation alone, no doubt SOMEONE on here has seen some of these greats of the past, but come on...how many 60-70 year olds browse LGW.com? Not many I'd guess. Here's my lists of players I've actually seen and been familiar with:

D:

1. Niklas

2. Bourque

3. Cheli

4. Craig Ludwig

two words BOBBY ORR

Edited December 7, 2007 by tony

[eva unit zero 271]

After some of the recent posts in the thread, I feel like breaking down my list into pre-1980 and post-1980 lists might be a good idea. So here it is:

Pre-1980

Center:

1) Jean Beliveau

2) Phil Esposito

3) Marcel Dionne

4) Alex Delvecchio

5) Howie Morenz

Left Wing:

1) Bobby Hull

2) Ted Lindsay

3) Johnny Bucyk

4) Frank Mahovlich

5) Dickie Moore

Right Wing:

1) Gordie Howe

2) Maurice Richard

3) Guy Lafleur

4) Joe Malone

5) Andy Bathgate

Defense:

1) Bobby Orr

2) Doug Harvey

3) Eddie Shore

4) Denis Potvin

5) Brad Park

Goaltender:

1) Terry Sawchuk

2) Jacques Plante

3) Ken Dryden

4) Bill Durnan

5) Glenn Hall

Post-1980

Center:

1) Wayne Gretzky

2) Mario Lemieux

3) Steve Yzerman

4) Mark Messier

5) Joe Sakic

Left Wing:

1) Luc Robitaille

2) Brendan Shanahan

3) Paul Kariya

4) Gary Roberts

5) Glenn Anderson

Right Wing:

1) Mike Bossy

2) Jaromir Jagr

3) Brett Hull

4) Teemu Selanne

5) Jari Kurri

Defense:

1) Ray Bourque

2) Nicklas Lidstrom

3) Chris Chelios

4) Paul Coffey

5) Al MacInnis

Goaltender:

1) Martin Brodeur

2) Dominik Hasek

3) Patrick Roy

4) Ed Belfour

5) Billy Smith

Edited December 7, 2007 by eva unit zero

[ultrapail 0]

dont worry everyone, eva's just schooling most of you because some of these posts are just ridiculous.

just because it's an opinion doesn't make it not stupid.

[Earthhuman 8]

Richter was an elite goaltender. It surprises me that so many people here don't acknowledge that, and yet most of us got to see him play. He was almost never out of position. Is reflexes were Lundqvist-esque. He had respectable stats while playing with the 90s Rangers. That's terrific.

[BeeRYCE 2]

Richter was an elite goaltender, but not for long enough. His only really magnificant and noteworthy season was the year they won the cup. His last 6 years he was an under .500 goalie who missed the playoffs every single one of those last 6 years.

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

After some of the recent posts in the thread, I feel like breaking down my list into pre-1980 and post-1980 lists might be a good idea. So here it is:

Pre-1980

Center:

1) Jean Beliveau

2) Phil Esposito

3) Marcel Dionne

4) Alex Delvecchio

5) Howie Morenz

Left Wing:

1) Bobby Hull

2) Ted Lindsay

3) Johnny Bucyk

4) Frank Mahovlich

5) Dickie Moore

Right Wing:

1) Gordie Howe

2) Maurice Richard

3) Guy Lafleur

4) Joe Malone

5) Andy Bathgate

Defense:

1) Bobby Orr

2) Doug Harvey

3) Eddie Shore

4) Denis Potvin

5) Brad Park

Goaltender:

1) Terry Sawchuk

2) Jacques Plante

3) Ken Dryden

4) Bill Durnan

5) Glenn Hall

Post-1980

Center:

1) Wayne Gretzky

2) Mario Lemieux

3) Steve Yzerman

4) Mark Messier

5) Joe Sakic

Left Wing:

1) Luc Robitaille

2) Brendan Shanahan

3) Paul Kariya

4) Gary Roberts

5) Glenn Anderson

Right Wing:

1) Mike Bossy

2) Jaromir Jagr

3) Brett Hull

4) Teemu Selanne

5) Jari Kurri

Defense:

1) Ray Bourque

2) Nicklas Lidstrom

3) Chris Chelios

4) Paul Coffey

5) Al MacInnis

Goaltender:

1) Martin Brodeur

2) Dominik Hasek

3) Patrick Roy

4) Ed Belfour

5) Billy Smith

WOW you have ALOT of time on your hands