Euro-Problems

[dicksmack 33]

While more Americans/Canadiens on the team could possibly make more of an impact to "relate" to, I'd hardly think it'd be that significant of a difference to put fannies in the stands.

Reason being even though guys like Yzerman and Shanahan were two of the most recognizable faces with the Wings in their recent history obviously, this team in recent years has had a lot of European players, the organization scouts in Europe plenty, and JLA was constatnly sold out until last year, still with a lot of European born players.

In recent past...

Fedorov

Larionov

Fischer

Kozlov

Olassoun

Eriksson

Fetisov

And a fair amount of others that have played on this franchise while the arena was selling out in recent memory.

Just French Canadians? (hehe) Stevie and Shanny are both canucks ya know!

Fannies? How cute!

Edited December 12, 2007 by dicksmack

[dicksmack 33]

I love it that this "bunch of euros" (so-called) is on top ot the league...

They are damn fun to watch

[betterREDthandead 58]

While more Americans/Canadiens on the team could possibly make more of an impact to "relate" to, I'd hardly think it'd be that significant of a difference to put fannies in the stands.

Reason being even though guys like Yzerman and Shanahan were two of the most recognizable faces with the Wings in their recent history obviously, this team in recent years has had a lot of European players, the organization scouts in Europe plenty, and JLA was constatnly sold out until last year, still with a lot of European born players.

In recent past...

Fedorov

Larionov

Fischer

Kozlov

Olassoun

Eriksson

Fetisov

And a fair amount of others that have played on this franchise while the arena was selling out in recent memory.

Don't kid yourself if you think Freddy Olausson and Anders Eriksson were the ones selling out the arena. Their presence on the team didn't sell one single ticket.

On the other hand, the Russian Five were selling seats. Which is why I think the notion that the team being a bunch of Europeans is behind the lack of sellouts is complete bunk. Hell, even the Canadian face of the franchise had a funny name, and it didn't turn people off.

The Wings are having the same problem as the Atlanta Braves had. Moderate success got boring. The Wings were a good team that was exiting the playoffs too quickly, like the Braves ever since they stopped going to the Series. Now add all the following negative factors: bad economy, lockout, bad economy, high ticket prices, bad economy, the long-held perception that Wings tickets are too hard to get, and the bad economy, and you have demand steadily dropping until it finally dropped below sellout levels.

If the Wings were smart they'd be centering a marketing campaign around Datsyuk and the dazzling stuff he does, and nobody would care that he's Russian not Canadian.

It helps, by the way, that the '90s crop of Wings was a terrific cast of characters. You had Stevie, Captain Courageous; the Russian Five with the old fart, the chess whiz, the Vladinator, and the golden boy - Sergei definitely had a lot of celebrity about him. Shanny, with the Irish jig. The Grind Line, McCarty especially, who was the successor to Probert who we all loved to death. And the coach was a mad genius. It doesn't take a serious hockey fan to appreciate this stuff. This current bunch of Wings, I appreciate because I love the way Cleary always knows how to kill an extra five seconds of power play, and I love how Flip always beats his man to the loose puck, but what is there for the casual fan? Nothing against them, but they're a pretty bland bunch. The most exciting player on the ice is also the quietest off it. The super-duper-duper-star is that way because he's so steady and unexciting.

[Hank 0]

ESPNs recap of last nights game against Nashville is telling. The commentator (not sure who but I think it was a guest) mocks Kopecky and Fillpula with a drunken tone, reading their names like they are just words on a script, with no person, no story behind them. At first I thought it unfair, but is it? For a sport that strains to know where Moose Factory, ON is, imagining a kid in a backyard rink in Vantaa or Ilava just seems too much to ask.

People have floated plenty of options to explain the Wing's attendance problem. The economy, competition from other teams, the departure of Yzerman. To throw some fuel on the fire I thought I'd see what you all think about another option, people in Detroit do not relate well to Europeans. In a land that prides itself the idea that domestic production is a virtue, a team based on the premise that 4th round picks from halfway across the globe can compete against the best thing North America can offer doesn't seem like a good fit.

Few can doubt that Zetterberg and Datsyuk are doing a great job filling the shoes of Shannahan and Yzerman when it comes to the scorecard. But when it comes to filling the seats, are they just to foreign for people to relate to?

In my opinion, yes. I'm not anti-European in any way. But I know I would invest a lot more emotion in the team if we had a player like Eric Staal, Rick Nash or Jonathon Toews.

And I can almost guarentee you if we had any of the above players, there would be a lot more fans at the Joe. It might take more than 1 of these guys but if you replaced Filpulla for Toews, Kronwall for Komiserik and Sammy for Raffi Torres more people would be interested in the team.

That's just my 2 cents and I could be completely off, but I know for my own personal taste, I would love to see more North American content on this squad.

P.S. Great post F.Michael. I couldn't agree more.

Edited December 12, 2007 by Hank

[toby91_ca 620]

This is one thing the Wings will have to overcome this year:

Nationality of captains for those teams that have won a cup since the NHL took over awarding it:

Canada - 78

US - 1

Euro - 1 (Johnny Gottselig was born in Russia, but moved to Canada as an infant, so this one doesn't really count).

Before anyone flames me, I am no way suggesting Lidstrom as captain is bad and they need a Canadian, just an interesting stat.

Also, I'm well aware that prior to 1990, something like 70+% of the league was Canadian, so it was much more likely to have a Canadian captain.

[eva unit zero 271]

This is one thing the Wings will have to overcome this year:

Nationality of captains for those teams that have won a cup since the NHL took over awarding it:

Canada - 78

US - 1

Euro - 1 (Johnny Gottselig was born in Russia, but moved to Canada as an infant, so this one doesn't really count).

Before anyone flames me, I am no way suggesting Lidstrom as captain is bad and they need a Canadian, just an interesting stat.

Also, I'm well aware that prior to 1990, something like 70+% of the league was Canadian, so it was much more likely to have a Canadian captain.

More like 95%. But it has to be taken in context...players aren't usually named captain until they've been in the league several years and established themselves. We'll assume an average of ten seasons of experience before a player is named captain. That would suggest a seven year window in which there has really even been an opportunity for a European to be a captain of a Cup-winning team. When you consider it's more likely for a native English-speaker to be named captain in a predominately North American league where more than half of al players speak English as their first and in many cases only language. There have been about 1000 seasons' worth of captaincy (teams multiplied by years) and it's reasonable to expect that more than 80% of that total is Canadians. The 'which country's captains have won Cups' argument is a poor one at best...after all, a Swedish captain has won Olympic gold twice in the past four Olympics. Doesn't that suggest that Swedes are better leaders than anyone else?

[union drone 0]

It is not the presence of Europeans that causes fans to not identify with the team, but rather the lack of a North American superstar. If the Wings had one North American player of high stature who is at the prime of his game on a team where everyone else is Euro, we wouldn't be even mentioning this.

But in reality, this is maybe only 10% of the Wings attendance problems. The state economy, the current success of other Detroit teams, high ticket prices, and the silly schedule are also big parts of the problem.

[omnipotent_hudler 0]

I think we all secretly hope for a Detroit Vs. Ottawa stanely cup finals match just so we can see Don Cherry go into shock at the fact that a SISSY EURO PANSY is going to captain a team to the cup.

[eva unit zero 271]

It is not the presence of Europeans that causes fans to not identify with the team, but rather the lack of a North American superstar. If the Wings had one North American player of high stature who is at the prime of his game on a team where everyone else is Euro, we wouldn't be even mentioning this.

But in reality, this is maybe only 10% of the Wings attendance problems. The state economy, the current success of other Detroit teams, high ticket prices, and the silly schedule are also big parts of the problem.

If only we had a highly talented, homegrown star player who played an exciting game. Maybe someone like Brian Rafalski.

[betterREDthandead 58]

Why is this acceptable?

In my opinion, yes. I'm not anti-European in any way.

That's just my 2 cents and I could be completely off, but I know for my own personal taste, I would love to see more North American content on this squad.

And this not?

In my opinion, yes. I'm not anti-***** in any way.

That's just my 2 cents and I could be completely off, but I know for my own personal taste, I would love to see more white people on this squad.

[eva unit zero 271]

Why is this acceptable?

And this not?

Because the Europeans in question are white people, so it's impossible for them to be discriminated against. It goes against the laws of physics, or something.

[omnipotent_hudler 0]

Why is this acceptable?

And this not?

Oh god what have you done

get out of this thread while you can

[BlueMonk 102]

Why is this acceptable?

And this not?

The point is well taken, but I think the discussion about where players are from is more about the style of hockey they're raised playing than their race. European hockey players, regardless of their color or ancestry, play in leagues that emphasize a different hockey style than North American hockey players (or at least that's the argument).

I don't think the presence of European players is a problem in Detroit. I don't think it's a big problem anywhere in the U.S., with one caveat: By comparison, in the NFL, the top players are followed from the time they're in high school. The NFL draft is a huge deal, because everyone has seen the kids play in college and the anticipation of how their game will translate to the pros is a big part of the appeal. But nobody in the U.S. is paying attention to the European hockey leagues that NHL players are drafted from, so they're like strangers who won't make a name for themselves until they make it as NHLers.

I don't think that's a problem, really, but it does have an impact on the popularity of the game.

[Jwo 7]

Never mind it was answer above. But Detroit never had a problem Identifying with the many Europeans in the mid to late 90's.

Edited December 12, 2007 by Jwo

[StevieBoy 2]

I think it's silly to suggest that Detroit fans aren't interested because of a strong makeup of European players. We've had a large percentage of European players for a while now, at least with our stars. In the 90s we have the Russian 5...and that was at the height of success for the Wings in terms of fan following.

Additionally, the Detroit area is one of the most culturally integrated cities in the country. I could see that argument in Buffalo or Denver...but I think it's just natural and fitting to have that sort of a mix in Detroit.

[betterREDthandead 58]

The point is well taken, but I think the discussion about where players are from is more about the style of hockey they're raised playing than their race. European hockey players, regardless of their color or ancestry, play in leagues that emphasize a different hockey style than North American hockey players (or at least that's the argument).

I don't think the presence of European players is a problem in Detroit. I don't think it's a big problem anywhere in the U.S., with one caveat: By comparison, in the NFL, the top players are followed from the time they're in high school. The NFL draft is a huge deal, because everyone has seen the kids play in college and the anticipation of how their game will translate to the pros is a big part of the appeal. But nobody in the U.S. is paying attention to the European hockey leagues that NHL players are drafted from, so they're like strangers who won't make a name for themselves until they make it as NHLers.

I don't think that's a problem, really, but it does have an impact on the popularity of the game.

I considered the point about style before, and it's true to some extent. (Obviously there are exceptions like Holmstrom, Vladdy, etc.)

But two problems - one, we are talking in terms of identifying with the players, not necessarily with their styles of play. You pointed out that the NFL has the bonus of having watched all the players since they were hots*** recruits in high school, which helps, but in hockey, that's not true for the Europeans (as you mentioned) but its not true for the North Americans either. Most NA players play in juniors, which Americans mostly don't follow. And college hockey doesn't have the exposure of college football. Jimmy Howard came from Maine - great - but that's not the same as Calvin Johnson coming from Georgia Tech or Tayshaun Prince coming from Kentucky.

And ultimately, basketball has the same style issues. White guys in basketball are universally seen as space-eating rebounders (if they're big) or dead-eye shooters (if they're guards.) J.J. Redick, ultimate white guy. Black guys are the slashers and scorers, the dunkers and the runners. Jason Williams was so much considered to have a "black" game that he picked up the nickname White Chocolate. Yet you'd still have major racial issues if a coach or a fan or anyone said "we need more white guys on this team," even if all they meant was we need guys who can shoot a 3. And if a columnist ever dared to suggest the team needed more white guys so that people could identify more with the team? Hooooooooooly s***.

Football too, by the way. White guys are pocket QB's, possession receivers, and linemen/linebackers. Black guys are running QB's, running backs, star wideouts, and DB's. If you said "we need a white QB" because you felt the guy currently there ran too much? Hoooooooooooooooooooly s***.

[VM1138 1,921]

There are "funny names" in every sport. This can be remedied by simply letting people hear their names, which means we need better marketing.

But the idea that people just can't like Euros is ridiculous. A good player is a good player, I don't know anyone who sits there and says "I don't like them because they're European." The language barrier and accents is where the trouble is.

[BlueMonk 102]

I considered the point about style before, and it's true to some extent. (Obviously there are exceptions like Holmstrom, Vladdy, etc.)

But two problems - one, we are talking in terms of identifying with the players, not necessarily with their styles of play. You pointed out that the NFL has the bonus of having watched all the players since they were hots*** recruits in high school, which helps, but in hockey, that's not true for the Europeans (as you mentioned) but its not true for the North Americans either. Most NA players play in juniors, which Americans mostly don't follow. And college hockey doesn't have the exposure of college football. Jimmy Howard came from Maine - great - but that's not the same as Calvin Johnson coming from Georgia Tech or Tayshaun Prince coming from Kentucky.

And ultimately, basketball has the same style issues. White guys in basketball are universally seen as space-eating rebounders (if they're big) or dead-eye shooters (if they're guards.) J.J. Redick, ultimate white guy. Black guys are the slashers and scorers, the dunkers and the runners. Jason Williams was so much considered to have a "black" game that he picked up the nickname White Chocolate. Yet you'd still have major racial issues if a coach or a fan or anyone said "we need more white guys on this team," even if all they meant was we need guys who can shoot a 3. And if a columnist ever dared to suggest the team needed more white guys so that people could identify more with the team? Hooooooooooly s***.

Football too, by the way. White guys are pocket QB's, possession receivers, and linemen/linebackers. Black guys are running QB's, running backs, star wideouts, and DB's. If you said "we need a white QB" because you felt the guy currently there ran too much? Hoooooooooooooooooooly s***.

I agree that hockey players are essentially nobodies in the U.S. until they reach the NHL, regardless of where they play. And I wouldn't argue about the racial issues you're talking about in football and basketball.

But all that said, I don't think the talk in hockey about "North American" and "European" is that much about race. There's a strong nationalism surrounding hockey in Canada, no doubt about it. But Canadian hockey players can have names like Shanahan, Luongo, Ciccarelli, etc, and still be revered as "Canadians."

[Spongewingredpants 75]

wow, would the Wings suck without the Euros's

i.e. no Lids, Hank, Pavel. Homer, Hasek, Hudler, Kronvall.....

i'd like to see Holland match all of these guys with non euro's...

[A.T.Hun 0]

ESPNs recap of last nights game against Nashville is telling. The commentator (not sure who but I think it was a guest) mocks Kopecky and Fillpula with a drunken tone, reading their names like they are just words on a script, with no person, no story behind them. At first I thought it unfair, but is it? For a sport that strains to know where Moose Factory, ON is, imagining a kid in a backyard rink in Vantaa or Ilava just seems too much to ask.

While I've been a supporter of ESPN, their coverage of the NHL is almost non-existent. I don't think that they didn't know how to pronounce "Valtteri Filppula" (whose name, admittedly, looks like a typographical error) really has any bearing on anything.

People have floated plenty of options to explain the Wing's attendance problem. The economy, competition from other teams, the departure of Yzerman. To throw some fuel on the fire I thought I'd see what you all think about another option, people in Detroit do not relate well to Europeans. In a land that prides itself the idea that domestic production is a virtue, a team based on the premise that 4th round picks from halfway across the globe can compete against the best thing North America can offer doesn't seem like a good fit.

The Euro thing might be a factor, but the Wings have been big on Euros for a long time, so don't honestly believe that it's that big of an issue. There was an interesting article on the Free Press yesterday talking about the new guy that they hired from the Preds to be a business guy. Basically, it will be his job to get butts in the seats at the Joe. The article was telling. The Wings basically have done nothing for group sales or promotions because for so many years they didn't have to. It will be interesting to see if this guy can be successful in getting sellouts again.

Another issue that is seldom discussed is the whole "get back to me in April" mentality. The Wings have the longest continuous streak of playoff appearances right now. Wings fans know that the regular season is more or less superfluous. Call me when the playoffs start. Then add in their recent (until last year) playoff futility and you've got a recipe for empty seats. That's even before you throw in the Euro thing, the economy, ticket prices, etc., etc., etc.

[A.T.Hun 0]

ESPNs recap of last nights game against Nashville is telling. The commentator (not sure who but I think it was a guest) mocks Kopecky and Fillpula with a drunken tone, reading their names like they are just words on a script, with no person, no story behind them. At first I thought it unfair, but is it? For a sport that strains to know where Moose Factory, ON is, imagining a kid in a backyard rink in Vantaa or Ilava just seems too much to ask.

While I've been a supporter of ESPN, their coverage of the NHL is almost non-existent. I don't think that they didn't know how to pronounce "Valtteri Filppula" (whose name, admittedly, looks like a typographical error) really has any bearing on anything.

People have floated plenty of options to explain the Wing's attendance problem. The economy, competition from other teams, the departure of Yzerman. To throw some fuel on the fire I thought I'd see what you all think about another option, people in Detroit do not relate well to Europeans. In a land that prides itself the idea that domestic production is a virtue, a team based on the premise that 4th round picks from halfway across the globe can compete against the best thing North America can offer doesn't seem like a good fit.

The Euro thing might be a factor, but the Wings have been big on Euros for a long time, so don't honestly believe that it's that big of an issue. There was an interesting article on the Free Press yesterday talking about the new guy that they hired from the Preds to be a business guy. Basically, it will be his job to get butts in the seats at the Joe. The article was telling. The Wings basically have done nothing for group sales or promotions because for so many years they didn't have to. It will be interesting to see if this guy can be successful in getting sellouts again.

Another issue that is seldom discussed is the whole "get back to me in April" mentality. The Wings have the longest continuous streak of playoff appearances right now. Wings fans know that the regular season is more or less superfluous. Call me when the playoffs start. Then add in their recent (until last year) playoff futility and you've got a recipe for empty seats. That's even before you throw in the Euro thing, the economy, ticket prices, etc., etc., etc.

[Copenhagen848 58]

I don't think it's a very big deal.

I personally think the loss of Yzerman and Shanny account for most of the attendance decline.

[imisssergei 0]

I think it has less to do with Europeans, and more to do with less high profile names than Wings fas are used to.

The Wings teams that were selling out the Joe every night, might as well have been a HOF roster.

It's like every time you get steak for 5 years, eating fillet mignon , then having someone give you a sirloin. Yeah, the sirloin is a nice steak too, but it just isn't as good.

[Barrie 900]

I think there's a number of factors that have led to the decrease in Wings attendance:

-The Michigan Economy

-No more Yzerman, Shanahan, and McCarty

-The high cost of Wings tickets compared to the other 3 teams in the city. $44 for upper bowl tickets at The Joe is to much. I refuse to pay that much. I'm happy paying $27 for SRO.

-The low number of North Americans on the team. If you like the theory or not, I think the majority of North American fans relate to North American players better than Europeans. And I think it's fair to say in Europe they can relate to Europeans better than North Americans.

-Expectations are to high, maybe. The last 12 years it's been Cup-or-Bust in the playoffs. We haven't won the Cup since 2002, so maybe some fans, used to seeing us win it all, have lost interest.

Overall, if the Wings want to sell more tickets, I think they need to lower ticket prices, and add a few more North Americans to the team.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

wow, would the Wings suck without the Euros's

i.e. no Lids, Hank, Pavel. Homer, Hasek, Hudler, Kronvall.....

i'd like to see Holland match all of these guys with non euro's...

Did you have to post this?

If Holland had a choice and had to replace them ...

Pronger/Niedermayer, Staal, Crosby, Smyth, Brodeur,Sam Gagner, Kevin Bieksa.

I'm sorry, couldnt help myself