Goaltender equipment to change

[TenaciousDetroit 0]

I gotta ask myself "How much difference does the size matter"?

[vangvace 12]

I gotta ask myself "How much difference does the size matter"?

Oh, it matters. Those who say it doesn't is lying to you or themselves.

[digitaljohn88 4]

Make the gear fit the goalie. Legace can't wear the same sized pads that Valliquette wears. Nor can he wear the same sized C/A that Valliquette wears. Is it unfair since Manny is shorter than the average goalie? Yes, but tough ****. You shouldn't beable to beef up your height and weight with massive goalie gear. (And yes, John, I can say this being 6"2. "

You being a 6'2 goalie invalidates your objective opinion as much as me being a 5'9 goalie. Don't forget, that you've been a fan of "beefing up your height and weight" since I've known you. You're 6'2 already and you make more effort to increase the size of your gear than I do. Did you not put a Giguere setup on your own chest protector and pants?

The best possible thing would be if they prevented those little cheats, and standardized the sizing on the chest protector and pants. Even if they size the pads by height, I don't think it will matter that much. The bigger difference would be in the chest and pants. Knee-pads could be also be looked at. Goalies like Giguere and Luongo use them primarily to plug up the five-hole, definitely moreso than their leg pads.

And I love how everyone here is bitching about Legace's pads, but noone touches Osgood. Ozzy is using the max 38" pads too, and I'm sure he could lose a few inches if he wanted to without sacrificing any protection. Just like any other goalie in the league right now, but Legace gets all the s*** because he happens to be 5'7 instead of 5'10.

Edited June 15, 2008 by digitaljohn88

[imisssergei 0]

Please explain to me goaltending repeals the laws of physics.

More padding = less open net.

Yes, goaltenders are all within the rules right now as concerns pad size. Many believe that the maximum is too high. Thus, the maximum is being lowered. That's the point.

You are looking at this in the wrong light. I'm not, nor have I ever, arguing that more pads don't take up more net. What I'm saying is that simply this, the size of the pads isn't what makes a goaltender.

It's all about style of play. A goaltender who plays a 'reactionary' style such as Osgood will wear smaller pads (generally speaking) than a goaltender who plays a 'positional' style such as Giggy. If you flip flop the equipment, neither goaltender would do nearly as well as if he were to use the equipment that caters to his style.

If it were as simple as bigger pads = more saves, than every goaltender would do it. The bottom line is that goaltenders use the largest possible equipment that they are comfortable with. It's not different than AO using a big curve, or St. Louis using a (proportionally) ridiculously long stick.

Anyone who has played any competitive sport has done this. It's called finding the competitive advantage. Watch Cheli play a game next season. While he doesn't use any equipment that could really be called into question, he is a wiley vet. He knows how to take the rules, and use them to his advantage. There is nothing wrong with that.

[imisssergei 0]

And just to add to your point, clearly if they are reducing the maximum as a measure to increase scoring, then it is a clear indicator that maximum padding = reduced scoring.

That's a farce. There will be no sudden increase in goals scored. This isn't the 80's. Goaltenders are no longer the worst skaters and athletes on the team. In this day and age, goalies are some of the best skaters and athletes on the team. That's te biggest reason why goal scoring is down.

GOALIES ARE SIMPLY BETTER NOW MORE THAN EVER BEFORE.

[Guest Crymson]

You are looking at this in the wrong light. I'm not, nor have I ever, arguing that more pads don't take up more net. What I'm saying is that simply this, the size of the pads isn't what makes a goaltender.

It's all about style of play. A goaltender who plays a 'reactionary' style such as Osgood will wear smaller pads (generally speaking) than a goaltender who plays a 'positional' style such as Giggy. If you flip flop the equipment, neither goaltender would do nearly as well as if he were to use the equipment that caters to his style.

If it were as simple as bigger pads = more saves, than every goaltender would do it. The bottom line is that goaltenders use the largest possible equipment that they are comfortable with. It's not different than AO using a big curve, or St. Louis using a (proportionally) ridiculously long stick.

Anyone who has played any competitive sport has done this. It's called finding the competitive advantage. Watch Cheli play a game next season. While he doesn't use any equipment that could really be called into question, he is a wiley vet. He knows how to take the rules, and use them to his advantage. There is nothing wrong with that.

There's a difference between the styles you suggest.

This difference is, namely, that it takes a tremendous amount of talent and practice to play what you call a 'reactionary' (odd word for it) style. Meanwhile, any old schmuck can put on tremendously large equipment and stop pucks merely by filling the net. That's how Giguere suddenly went from career backup to Conn Smythe winner, before his equipment size was cut down on. What you see Giguere wearing today is considerably smaller than what he wore in the pre-lockout days.

That's a farce. There will be no sudden increase in goals scored. This isn't the 80's. Goaltenders are no longer the worst skaters and athletes on the team. In this day and age, goalies are some of the best skaters and athletes on the team. That's te biggest reason why goal scoring is down.

GOALIES ARE SIMPLY BETTER NOW MORE THAN EVER BEFORE.

GOALIES WEAR MORE EQUIPMENT THAN BEFORE. MORE EQUIPMENT = LESS NET TO SHOOT AT = LESS GOALS.

See: Physics. It's really very basic.

Edited June 16, 2008 by Crymson

[shadow47 1]

The changes will likely only affect goaltenders whose equipment is at the absolute size limit.

Yes, many goaltenders thrive on huge equipment. It's a matter of physics. Ask anyone who plays goalie. More pads equals less net to shoot at. That's an absolute.

As an example of this, see Manny Legace. I found it amusing that Gary Bettman called him out on national television during the All-Star game regarding the size of his equipment. His leg pads are maximum-sized, which is a change from earlier in his career. Goalies like he, Giguere, and that fellow Crawford from Chicago wear enormous equipment, and this allows them stop pucks simply by making minor positioning changes. On the other end of the spectrum, consider goalies such as Brodeur and Osgood. They are well below the limit in pad size and make their saves via intelligence and mechanics. Roy wore large equipment, but he could also move. Giguere cannot. He simply wears utterly enormous equipment.

Consider styles. Some goalies simply wear equipment large enough that ensures---this is common statistics---that more pucks will strike them than would be the case were they wearing smaller equipment. Other goalies wear smaller equipment but make the saves anyway. Any of us on these forums could strap on enormous equipment and do fairly well in net simply by positioning. As I said, it's simple physics. Meanwhile, it'd take any of us years of training and a boatload of talent to make saves by skill.

One of my favorite PbP lines from this this year's playoffs occurred after Giguere was beaten by Robidas for the Stars` first goal in the deciding game of that series. Modano had taken a shot from the point that Giguere saved, but the rebound went to Robidas along the right boards. Robidas shot the puck For most goalies, the angle that Robidas shot from would have made it very easy for them to slide from right to left very easily. For Giguere, it was not, and he was scored on. The TSN announcer explained, "When you make him (Giguere) move from coast to coast, you stand a chance. The shot from the point isn't going to beat him, but when you force him to move that gigantic equipment he wears, he's always going to be late getting there." That pretty much says it all.

As regards your hope that the changes will shut those people up who think that some goalies only succeed because of large equipment: shouldn't you wait to see what changes these equipment rule modifications bring first?

Beat me to it, Osgood's leg pads are ridiculous, he and Garth Snow are the two guys I can think of that do that board extension on the top of the rise aftermarket, I thought modding your pads post-factory was illegal now???

[shadow47 1]

There's a difference between the styles you suggest.

This difference is, namely, that it takes a tremendous amount of talent and practice to play what you call a 'reactionary' (odd word for it) style. Meanwhile, any old schmuck can put on tremendously large equipment and stop pucks merely by filling the net. That's how Giguere suddenly went from career backup to Conn Smythe winner, before his equipment size was cut down on. What you see Giguere wearing today is considerably smaller than what he wore in the pre-lockout days.

GOALIES WEAR MORE EQUIPMENT THAN BEFORE. MORE EQUIPMENT = LESS NET TO SHOOT AT = LESS GOALS.

See: Physics. It's really very basic.

Listen guy, I don't know what you know about actual goaltending, it wouldn't appear to be much since you think it is easier to play the way Giguere does. Is there some valor in falling of position and allowing goals? Giguere's style and that of most goaltenders today is to be in position, square, etc. for every shot, rebound, on and on...that was a Roy trademark and if you consider the alternatives it really is the best plan, the goalie always wants to be in the best position to stop the shot. That's what every goaltender no matter the style of play strives for and it takes discipline, athleticism, intense focus, and practice to successfully carry out that plan. The equipment does not make as much difference as you believe, take a look at the effect on scoring the last decrease caused...yep, nothing. Everyone adjusted and scoring is right back to a reasonable level, it's not they changed just the equipment either, plenty of rules to screw the goalies and that didn't even do it. Rules changes and equipment shrinkages had ZERO EFFECT. Zero. Seriously, it is a shame that you can't appreciate the play of a guy like JSG, he is one of the best positional and technique keepers in the league, won a Conn Smythe in a losing effort, SWEPT THE RED WINGS, has been consistently solid, and was great again this year. Yes, he started as a backup, just like every goaltender in the league with the exception of an angelic few rushed to glory (though that "glory" didn't turn out too well early for those guys, Fleury/Dipietro/Luongo), but now he's one of the best in the world, just because you don't like him don't deprive him of the respect he's due for his skill and accomplishments.

[Hank 0]

As a goaltender myself, I am in support of smaller equipment overall. More form fitting, only what's necessarry, etc.

But I am NOT in favor of sizing equipment based on body size. ie: Kolzig can have 40" pads but Legace can only have 32". The smaller goalies are already starting to fall out of favor in the draft, and this would only further that trend. Smaller goalies have to be faster and more reflexive, even when they are using the same size equipment as the big guys. I'd like to keep them around as opposed to a league full of 6'3 "blocking" goalies.

Boo Hoo!

Then 5'8" skaters should be given stilts?

You're complaining about fairness, but yet you think it's fair that one goalie can wear pants that are 90% of his leg length while another is only allowed 80% of his?

If you can't hack it in the NHL without having twice the size of gear (relative to body size) as what a larger goalie wears then see ya later.

There is no room for cheating and that's basically what you're saying should be allowed for smaller goalies.

By your standard, it should be okay for skinny baseball players to use steriods because they'll never be a large as naturally bigger men.

Give me the best, NATURAL athelets in the sport. Not midgets that have to cheat or work with a different standard to compete. What's next? Allowing slower skaters to wear rocket skates?

[Jocu 0]

You being a 6'2 goalie invalidates your objective opinion as much as me being a 5'9 goalie. Don't forget, that you've been a fan of "beefing up your height and weight" since I've known you. You're 6'2 already and you make more effort to increase the size of your gear than I do. Did you not put a Giguere setup on your own chest protector and pants?

Haha, touche, granted, we're not in the NHL, so it doesn't matter to us as much.

And by the by, the Giguere set-up rocks.

[Cern 0]

Boo Hoo!

Then 5'8" skaters should be given stilts?

You're complaining about fairness, but yet you think it's fair that one goalie can wear pants that are 90% of his leg length while another is only allowed 80% of his?

If you can't hack it in the NHL without having twice the size of gear (relative to body size) as what a larger goalie wears then see ya later.

There is no room for cheating and that's basically what you're saying should be allowed for smaller goalies.

By your standard, it should be okay for skinny baseball players to use steriods because they'll never be a large as naturally bigger men.

Give me the best, NATURAL athelets in the sport. Not midgets that have to cheat or work with a different standard to compete. What's next? Allowing slower skaters to wear rocket skates?

By that logic, future drafts will push for sumo wrestlers and siamese twins for goalie talent. Smaller goalies in their entirety will be completely phased out - why bother with them when you can get someone who covers 98% of the net just by sitting there? People bring up this goalie equipment tweaking as if it'll miraculously solve the scoring 'issue'. IMO all it'll do is result inmore larger goalies who cover more of the net, and then you're back to the exact same problem only now it's raw size instead of the equipment. This whole issue is little more than the league's way of 'easing into' the adoption of larger nets, at which point the sport will become nothing more than basketball on ice and ergo completely unwatchable.

Edited June 16, 2008 by Cern

[Dabura 12,207]

Boo Hoo!

Then 5'8" skaters should be given stilts?

You're complaining about fairness, but yet you think it's fair that one goalie can wear pants that are 90% of his leg length while another is only allowed 80% of his?

If you can't hack it in the NHL without having twice the size of gear (relative to body size) as what a larger goalie wears then see ya later.

There is no room for cheating and that's basically what you're saying should be allowed for smaller goalies.

By your standard, it should be okay for skinny baseball players to use steriods because they'll never be a large as naturally bigger men.

Give me the best, NATURAL athelets in the sport. Not midgets that have to cheat or work with a different standard to compete. What's next? Allowing slower skaters to wear rocket skates?

qft

[imisssergei 0]

There's a difference between the styles you suggest.

This difference is, namely, that it takes a tremendous amount of talent and practice to play what you call a 'reactionary' (odd word for it) style. Meanwhile, any old schmuck can put on tremendously large equipment and stop pucks merely by filling the net. That's how Giguere suddenly went from career backup to Conn Smythe winner, before his equipment size was cut down on. What you see Giguere wearing today is considerably smaller than what he wore in the pre-lockout days.

GOALIES WEAR MORE EQUIPMENT THAN BEFORE. MORE EQUIPMENT = LESS NET TO SHOOT AT = LESS GOALS.

See: Physics. It's really very basic.

Seriously, get your head out of the clouds. I'm not sure what your beef with goalies is, maybe you just can't score. Whatever your beef is, get over it.

If all it took were larger pads to be better, than every single goaltender would be using the max allowed. But not all do.

Come to grips with reality, and just admit it. Goaltenders today are better than at any time in the history of the game.

[vangvace 12]

By that logic, future drafts will push for sumo wrestlers and siamese twins for goalie talent. Smaller goalies in their entirety will be completely phased out - why bother with them when you can get someone who covers 98% of the net just by sitting there? People bring up this goalie equipment tweaking as if it'll miraculously solve the scoring 'issue'. IMO all it'll do is result inmore larger goalies who cover more of the net, and then you're back to the exact same problem only now it's raw size instead of the equipment. This whole issue is little more than the league's way of 'easing into' the adoption of larger nets, at which point the sport will become nothing more than basketball on ice and ergo completely unwatchable.

Realistically, this is already happening with every position on the ice, but there will almost always be a Martin St. Louis playing out there.

[Dabura 12,207]

Come to grips with reality, and just admit it.

Admit what? I dislike Crymson as much as the next person, but he's right. Under the current rules (or lack thereof), there's the potential for exploiting equipment to such an extent that a guy like Giguere (good goalie, not great) can become a Conn Smythe winner practically overnight (i.e., without improving his game in any substantial way). Moreover, that not all goalies use enormous equipment is not proof that there isn't a problem.

[dallas27 7]

People should go get fit for pads if they haven't. It's easy to read stuff on the internet and comment on it.

I'm as tall as Osgood, my pads are too small. They are 34'' or 35'', got them too long ago to remember which one.

[Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA]

There's a difference between the styles you suggest.

This difference is, namely, that it takes a tremendous amount of talent and practice to play what you call a 'reactionary' (odd word for it) style. Meanwhile, any old schmuck can put on tremendously large equipment and stop pucks merely by filling the net. That's how Giguere suddenly went from career backup to Conn Smythe winner, before his equipment size was cut down on. What you see Giguere wearing today is considerably smaller than what he wore in the pre-lockout days.

GOALIES WEAR MORE EQUIPMENT THAN BEFORE. MORE EQUIPMENT = LESS NET TO SHOOT AT = LESS GOALS.

See: Physics. It's really very basic.

thats actualyl not physics at all.. just logic

[imisssergei 0]

Admit what? I dislike Crymson as much as the next person, but he's right. Under the current rules (or lack thereof), there's the potential for exploiting equipment to such an extent that a guy like Giguere (good goalie, not great) can become a Conn Smythe winner practically overnight (i.e., without improving his game in any substantial way). Moreover, that not all goalies use enormous equipment is not proof that there isn't a problem.

Admit that goalies are simply better today than they have ever been in the past. The problem isn't the size of goaltenders pads. It's two things really:

1. The NHL having unrealistic expectations in regards to where goalscoring should be. It will never be where is was in the 80's. The level of talent is so high in today's game, it's impossible to expect much more scoring than there is.

2. The NHL underestimates the coaching staffs. For every 1 brilliant offensive mind, there are 5 equally brilliant defensive minds. Even at that, the old cliche' holds true in the NHL moreso than any other sport, defense wins championships. Every rule the NHL implements to increase scoring is countered by a change in defensive play.

The NHL, and a large part of people here have to realize that plain and simple, every player is better, especially goaltenders. No position in hockey has seen greater strides towards improvement over the last 25-30 years than goaltending.

Does Giggy use pads that are too big? No, they fit perfectly within the rules. Could he get the same result with smaller pads? Yes. Giggy isn't good side to side, but he is one of the most positionally sound goalltenders the game has ever seen, that cannot be denied.

I'm so tired of seeing 'current rules give smaller goaltenders an advantage' it's such a bs argument. If it did offer some sort of advantage, then the only thing that would result from making the pads smaller would be a greater advantage given to bigger goaltenders. Afterall, they already take up more space.

[imisssergei 0]

thats actualyl not physics at all.. just logic

But if these goaltenders aren't any good without the extra pads, and they are simply covering up more net, than it would be as simple as a short little pass, or a small deke, anything to change the angle and you'd have yourself a goal.

But it isn't that easy, because these guys are pretty damn good.

[Echolalia 2,961]

While they're at it they should abolish the stick regulations.

[Guest LivingtheDream]

Does Giggy use pads that are too big? No, they fit perfectly within the rules. Could he get the same result with smaller pads? Yes. Giggy isn't good side to side, but he is one of the most positionally sound goalltenders the game has ever seen, that cannot be denied.

I can only hope to see this all fall apart if there are rule changes. Giggy is a ***** and deserves to be exposed.

[vangvace 12]

Admit that goalies are simply better today than they have ever been in the past. The problem isn't the size of goaltenders pads. It's two things really:

1. The NHL having unrealistic expectations in regards to where goalscoring should be. It will never be where is was in the 80's. The level of talent is so high in today's game, it's impossible to expect much more scoring than there is.

2. The NHL underestimates the coaching staffs. For every 1 brilliant offensive mind, there are 5 equally brilliant defensive minds. Even at that, the old cliche' holds true in the NHL moreso than any other sport, defense wins championships. Every rule the NHL implements to increase scoring is countered by a change in defensive play.

The NHL, and a large part of people here have to realize that plain and simple, every player is better, especially goaltenders. No position in hockey has seen greater strides towards improvement over the last 25-30 years than goaltending.

Does Giggy use pads that are too big? No, they fit perfectly within the rules. Could he get the same result with smaller pads? Yes. Giggy isn't good side to side, but he is one of the most positionally sound goalltenders the game has ever seen, that cannot be denied.

I'm so tired of seeing 'current rules give smaller goaltenders an advantage' it's such a bs argument. If it did offer some sort of advantage, then the only thing that would result from making the pads smaller would be a greater advantage given to bigger goaltenders. Afterall, they already take up more space.

I don't think anyone here thinks that the current generation of players talent is worse than the previous generations. I haven't seen anyone make mention of it yet, except you, just sayin'

Now... goaltenders are a lot like nascar crew chiefs. Both have a simple set of rules to follow and try to exploit every loophole they can. If you ain't cheatin', you ain't trying as the saying goes. You keep making mention that goalies are staying with the rules but if the rules in and of themselves can be improved upon and make the game of hockey better and perhaps in some ways more exciting then what in the nine hells is wrong with that I ask? It will should make positional tenders more precise and make reactionary goalies more fun to watch. I fail to see what is wrong with that. It's not like any change the league will make is gonna make it where a team is in double digits a common occurrence.

But if these goaltenders aren't any good without the extra pads, and they are simply covering up more net, than it would be as simple as a short little pass, or a small deke, anything to change the angle and you'd have yourself a goal.

Sounds like how you beat most goalies so...

Question for the current keepers out there: How old is the oldest piece of equipment you currently own? Have you strapped on equipment from the early 80s recently or older in the last few years? Not really sure where I'm going with this other than curiosity.

[HomeNugget 2]

the first piece of equipment i'd like to see downsized is the glove. goalies don't need gloves the size of fishing nets.

[vangvace 12]

the first piece of equipment i'd like to see downsized is the glove. goalies don't need gloves the size of fishing nets.

But it makes for some epic failures lol

[imisssergei 0]

I don't think anyone here thinks that the current generation of players talent is worse than the previous generations. I haven't seen anyone make mention of it yet, except you, just sayin'

Now... goaltenders are a lot like nascar crew chiefs. Both have a simple set of rules to follow and try to exploit every loophole they can. If you ain't cheatin', you ain't trying as the saying goes. You keep making mention that goalies are staying with the rules but if the rules in and of themselves can be improved upon and make the game of hockey better and perhaps in some ways more exciting then what in the nine hells is wrong with that I ask? It will should make positional tenders more precise and make reactionary goalies more fun to watch. I fail to see what is wrong with that. It's not like any change the league will make is gonna make it where a team is in double digits a common occurrence.

Sounds like how you beat most goalies so...

Question for the current keepers out there: How old is the oldest piece of equipment you currently own? Have you strapped on equipment from the early 80s recently or older in the last few years? Not really sure where I'm going with this other than curiosity.

The only reason I make any mention of goalies being better today than ever before is because people aren't giving them any credit. Especially guys like Giggy. It really bugs me that these people say Giggy is good because of his pads. Do them help? Sure. But in the same manner that smaller pads help Ozzie. That is, they cater to his style of play. If pads are within the rules, what's the problem?

As I said before, the NHL has this idea that coaches won't find a way to overcome any rule changes made, including size of pads. Just like they found a way to snuff out the larger offensive zone, and totally kill the legal two-line pass.

As for cheating, does every goaltender do it? That's debatable, but I wouldn't doubt it. But don't be so naive to think that skaters don't do the exact same thing. The only real difference is goaltenders equipment is much more closely monitored.

I'm not trying to say they should change the rules on goaltenders pads if it can make the game better. I'm just saying that it won't make the game any more exciting, or 'better'. It won't make any dramatic effect on scoring, as if it actually makes any difference in the way a goalie plays, teams will simply adapt defensively.

I don't think the NHL can increase scoring very much, consistently. There are other things that could really improve the flow and more 'casual fan friendly' than making changes to goaltenders pads. Things like touch-up icing, or getting rid of the instigator rule to allow more fighting, these are the things that are going to grow the game in the U.S., not the width, or height of a leg pad.

EDIT: Asking a goaltender how old his equipment is going to bring about deceptive answers. Most goalies I know have kept the same equipment they used in their last year of competitive play. However, when I was playing, even the guys in Jr.'s would get new stuff (save the chest protector) every year in order to match team colors. It's no different than a player getting a new lid or, stick, or mitts. Even at that, how often do you change your gloves? I do about every other season at least, skates every 3-4 years, helmet every 3-5 years, elbow pads never, pants 3-4 years, shin guards 1-3 years, and shoulder pads well, who actually wears those anyhow?

Edited June 18, 2008 by imisssergei