• Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

Guest Dump-N-Thump

Jiri Hudler

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

If that's true, then it's overblown all around the NHL and its fanbase, because that's how most hockey fans view a soft team. The people on this forum who stress that definition of softness may be in the LGW minority, but around the rest of the league, that's par for the course.

Around the NHL? Do you mean people actually involved in the NHL? Or do you mean hockey message boards? Either way it's a fallacy.

We need a ******* pie chart for this discussion anyway, is fighting 80% toughness? 90%? What about physical play (checking, initiating contact)? Going into corners? Taking punishment? Getting knocked down and getting up? Now what about mental toughness? Playing through pain? Playing through injury? Does fighting trump ALL of them when talking about toughness?

So lets see, the Wings are a physical team (Stuart, Kronwall, Maltby, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Holmstrom, Cleary, Kopecky, Lilja ect...) 99% of the Wings routinely go into corners or the "tough" areas. The Wings take punsihment and dole it out, they get knocked down and get back up and they obviously have the mental toughness. They all play through pain without thinking twice and injury but if Osgood gets tapped and the Wings don't go apes*** and start swinging the Wings are soft? Do you realize how retarded that sounds? How juvinelle that sounds? Look, fighting is part of it but I'd be a hell of a lot more concerned if the Wings didn't go into corners than if they didn't fight.

The Wings will fight this year, they'll have times where it's needed but when calling a team soft or not, fighting IS NOT the deciding factor since it's almost always useless in the playoffs. Makes no sense that you could be soft in the regular season but insanely tough in the playoffs like the Wings are.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I saw all the wing players step up and show how tough they are this last playoff. The wings are not soft. Pavel kicked azz, Kronwall, my god, he was a monster and sent people flying. I'd like to have Mac or Downey there if for nothing else, for the moral of the rest of the team. But for those who are saying the team is soft , obviously didn't watch the same team I did.

Wasn't this thread about Huds, Haven't seen his name mentioned in awhile. I think Huds was awesome in the playoffs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Crymson
The main issue with us "pro-enforcers" is not that Downey has more skill than Kopecky, it's that the Wings need a player like Downey and his role as an enforcer more than another skilled player who has been known to fight occasonally. Downey is a better fighter than Kopecky so the nod should go to him. As far as Downey being a liability, it has already been pointed out that Aaron was a +/- 0 in 56 games in the regular season. Drake, who got to play during the entire post-season, was a -12 in 65 games in the regular season. I like Drake, but I'm just pointing out that Babcock chose to play a player such as Drake eventhough his overall performance during the regular season was less than stellar.

Your +/- comparison between Drake and Downey is unfounded. Downey was on the ice very, VERY little. As such, the probability of a goal being scored while he was on the ice was very, very low.

Drake had a negative +/- because he was on a line that did not score very much. However, he did bring a physical presence and he did kill penalties and he did help out in the leadership aspect. Also, he could do this 10+ minutes per night. Downey often played 3-5 minutes per night, and he was used primarily as a guided missile.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Dump-N-Thump

Remember last season when everyone was calling for his head because of a -7.. I do.

How quickly people change.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Around the NHL? Do you mean people actually involved in the NHL? Or do you mean hockey message boards? Either way it's a fallacy.

We need a ******* pie chart for this discussion anyway, is fighting 80% toughness? 90%? What about physical play (checking, initiating contact)? Going into corners? Taking punishment? Getting knocked down and getting up? Now what about mental toughness? Playing through pain? Playing through injury? Does fighting trump ALL of them when talking about toughness?

So lets see, the Wings are a physical team (Stuart, Kronwall, Maltby, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Holmstrom, Cleary, Kopecky, Lilja ect...) 99% of the Wings routinely go into corners or the "tough" areas. The Wings take punsihment and dole it out, they get knocked down and get back up and they obviously have the mental toughness. They all play through pain without thinking twice and injury but if Osgood gets tapped and the Wings don't go apes*** and start swinging the Wings are soft? Do you realize how retarded that sounds? How juvinelle that sounds? Look, fighting is part of it but I'd be a hell of a lot more concerned if the Wings didn't go into corners than if they didn't fight.

The Wings will fight this year, they'll have times where it's needed but when calling a team soft or not, fighting IS NOT the deciding factor since it's almost always useless in the playoffs. Makes no sense that you could be soft in the regular season but insanely tough in the playoffs like the Wings are.

Sorry to break the news to you, but toughness in hockey is often associated with fighting by both players and fans. Retaliating physically is thought to be tougher than retaliating on the scoreboard. I never said we don't fight for pucks, all I said is that at this point we have no one who can retaliate with their fists. Downey and Mac are still unsigned at this point.

And believe it or not, the rest of the league will try to take advantage of that fact. The Wings are still viewed around the league as a soft team compared to others. That's not just me talking, because you hear that all the time from opposing teams, announcers and fans.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Dump-N-Thump
Then you guys should quit ***** footing around the issue and call it like it is.

Downey is not a protector. Downey is a cheerleader.

Fun to look at. Boosts morale. But in the end isn't going to win you any games.

Yah Boosting morale and getting the crowd into the game doesn't necessarily put points on the board, But it does put a fire under everyone else's but to work harder.. Gives us that little push to play the whole 60 Minutes.

-

Its obvious what you'd rather see, You'd rather see a non-checking league in the NHL.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sorry to break the news to you, but toughness in hockey is often associated with fighting by both players and fans. Retaliating physically is thought to be tougher than retaliating on the scoreboard. I never said we don't fight for pucks, all I said is that at this point we have no one who can retaliate with their fists. Downey and Mac are still unsigned at this point.

And believe it or not, the rest of the league will try to take advantage of that fact. The Wings are still viewed around the league as a soft team compared to others. That's not just me talking, because you hear that all the time from opposing teams, announcers and fans.

I'm sure the Wings are very concerned what a bunch of fans and announcers of opposing teams say about them. [/sarcasm] As for the opposing teams, I challenge you to provide a link of any player in the NHL that has come out and directly stated that the Wings are a soft team this past season. Don't just make that comment unless you have something to back it up.

Anyway, this thread has run its course over and over again. The fact of the matter is that once Filp is re-signed Kenny will more than likely lock down either Downey or Mac since he'll have a clearer picture of what the team cap will look like. I understand he's offered both players a contract, but if either is reluctant to sign, Kenny may change the offer a bit based on the outcome of Val.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yah Boosting morale and getting the crowd into the game doesn't necessarily put points on the board, But it does put a fire under everyone else's but to work harder.. Gives us that little push to play the whole 60 Minutes.

-

Its obvious what you'd rather see, You'd rather see a non-checking league in the NHL.

Funny......I always thought that was the coach's job.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm sure the Wings are very concerned what a bunch of fans and announcers of opposing teams say about them. [/sarcasm]

The Wings just won the cup and there's no other team close to Detroit as it stands right now. Morale victories are for losers.

Those fans and announcers have a very narrow minded view of the Wings and at the end of the day it's irrelevant as long as the Wings continue to be as consistent as they are. After all of that, what does it say about those supposed "tougher" teams who get routinely beat and battered by the Wings?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Crymson
I'm sure the Wings are very concerned what a bunch of fans and announcers of opposing teams say about them. [/sarcasm] As for the opposing teams, I challenge you to provide a link of any player in the NHL that has come out and directly stated that the Wings are a soft team this past season. Don't just make that comment unless you have something to back it up.

Anyway, this thread has run its course over and over again. The fact of the matter is that once Filp is re-signed Kenny will more than likely lock down either Downey or Mac since he'll have a clearer picture of what the team cap will look like. I understand he's offered both players a contract, but if either is reluctant to sign, Kenny may change the offer a bit based on the outcome of Val.

I'll cover for you, NFM. GMR: Don Cherry does not count.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sorry to break the news to you, but toughness in hockey is often associated with fighting by both players and fans. Retaliating physically is thought to be tougher than retaliating on the scoreboard. I never said we don't fight for pucks, all I said is that at this point we have no one who can retaliate with their fists. Downey and Mac are still unsigned at this point.

And believe it or not, the rest of the league will try to take advantage of that fact. The Wings are still viewed around the league as a soft team compared to others. That's not just me talking, because you hear that all the time from opposing teams, announcers and fans.

Oh yeah? Lets hear it then.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I know what you're getting at, but honestly a big goal, huge check, or sometimes a key fight can do way more to fire up the team through the course of a game than even the best coach can do.

And how many "big goals" are guys like Downey gonna score for the Wings? No doubt that a huge check or a key fight can fire a team up, I understand that and I do agree that the Wings should bring in Downey or Mac for the upcoming season. However, I'm not going to go as mental as some have in this thread over the need to lock up Downey or Mac (or both) immediately to "protect" these skill guys because not only have these Wings (as a whole) showed they play with team toughness night-in and night-out, but I'm 99.9% confident that once the picture with Val becomes clearer Kenny will work something out with a player of that ilk.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And how many "big goals" are guys like Downey gonna score for the Wings? No doubt that a huge check or a key fight can fire a team up, I understand that and I do agree that the Wings should bring in Downey or Mac for the upcoming season. However, I'm not going to go as mental as some have in this thread over the need to lock up Downey or Mac (or both) immediately to "protect" these skill guys because not only have those guys as a whole showed they play with team toughness night-in and night-out, but I'm 99.9% confident that once the picture with Val becomes clearer Kenny will work something out with a player of that ilk.

well obviously when we're talking about Downey, we're not talking about big goals. I was speaking in the general sense of things that fire up the team.

As I've said, I just think Holland needs to have the same level of that kind of toughness that he did last season. We've already lost Drake, so there goes a good chunk of it. And I think having guys like Drake and Downey in the lineup allow the team to play overall more physical, because they have a teammate that's got their back and more importantly, can go with the other teams heavyweights when things get chippy.

Honestly as I've gotten older, fights in hockey games are a lot less exciting to me. But I still think it's a necessary ingredient to having a successful hockey team in the NHL.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If Mac can get into game shape, he definitely has more upside than Downey... but if what we saw from him in the playoffs is it (slow and bad penalties), they are about even.

Downey is better than Mac in fighting and that is it... Mac, if he gets in better shape, is the "Drake replacement" every one was clamoring for. Can deliver the big hit, back it up and chip in an opportune goal from time to time. Though Drake is a better PKer, for sure... but we have plenty of those.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Honestly as I've gotten older, fights in hockey games are a lot less exciting to me. But I still think it's a necessary ingredient to having a successful hockey team in the NHL.

^^ This is the type of insight that I can buy into, some good substance. I'm not sure what people are worried about there's going to be a Downey type on the team one way or another.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
well obviously when we're talking about Downey, we're not talking about big goals. I was speaking in the general sense of things that fire up the team.

As I've said, I just think Holland needs to have the same level of that kind of toughness that he did last season. We've already lost Drake, so there goes a good chunk of it. And I think having guys like Drake and Downey in the lineup allow the team to play overall more physical, because they have a teammate that's got their back and more importantly, can go with the other teams heavyweights when things get chippy.

Honestly as I've gotten older, fights in hockey games are a lot less exciting to me. But I still think it's a necessary ingredient to having a successful hockey team in the NHL.

Agreed.

Keep in mind HS, that I never once stated that I don't want to see the Wings replace the toughness lost by Drake or that there is no need for Downey or Mac to be signed. I agree that its important to have guys like that to balance your team out, however I also feel that as this Red Wings team continues to play with more team toughness each and every night, the need for a flat-out goon becomes less and less important.

A guy like Drake is the furthest thing from a goon. He's the definition of a checker/grinder. He hits hard, sticks up for his teammates but plays phenomenal defense to go with it. Neither Downey or Mac come close to bringing that element of play with them. While those two can certainly help with the toughness factor, IMO it would be much more beneficial bringing in a guy like Drake to replace the void that he left rather than both Mac and Downey.

I guess what I'm saying in a roundabout way is that I do agree that the Wings would benefit from having a guy like Mac or Downey around, as that balance can never hurt. However, it most certainly would be nice to have someone that could also play hockey. I just think people are jumping off the deep end too quickly because I'm 99.9% sure Kenny will fill the void with someone as soon as the Val situation plays out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
the Wings need a player like Downey and his role as an enforcer more than another skilled player who has been known to fight occasonally.

Do they, though? Like I said, both Babcock and Bowman would dress Kopecky before Downey in the postseason. What does that tell you? That tells you Downey has his role, his place, his value, but when you get right down to it, his total package (or lack thereof?) puts him at the bottom of the totem pole -- i.e., as a healthy scratch in the playoffs. It's no coincidence that Mac, who many not fight as well as Downy in his old age but has a better overall game, got to play in the playoffs instead of the other resident tough guy, Downey.

Downey is a better fighter than Kopecky so the nod should go to him.

Sure, if fighting's the only thing Babs looks at. It's not, though. As such, your statement is arbitrary and inane.

As far as Downey being a liability, it has already been pointed out that Aaron was a +/- 0 in 56 games in the regular season.

Downey barely played. There's a reason for that: he's a liability. This shouldn't even be up for debate; beyond fighting and yapping, the guy has no game.

Drake, who got to play during the entire post-season, was a -12 in 65 games in the regular season. I like Drake, but I'm just pointing out that Babcock chose to play a player such as Drake eventhough his overall performance during the regular season was less than stellar.

Poor comparison, poor argument. Drake played more minutes than Downey, and he spent those minutes on the fourth line. That's not going to do wonders for anyone's +/-.

Bottom line: Drake got the nod over Downey because he's a much better player.

:rolleyes:

Right, because it's not like Holland has ever refused to carry an enforcer before.

Shucks howdy, GMR, thanks for giving me the thoughtful, intelligent, well-reasoned response I asked for!

The people on this forum who stress that definition of softness may be in the LGW minority, but around the rest of the league, that's par for the course.

"Around the rest of the league"? Try "around watering holes and dinner tables."

I've played hockey. I've coached hockey. I learned at a young age that toughness in hockey is a multi-dimensional thing. A coach of mine wanted to make a point about toughness (specifically, what it's all about). Did he teach us how to fight? No, he enrolled the team in a tournament in Toronto, where we (a AAA team -- a great team) had our asses handed to us, and in the process learned a lot about toughness and "grit" and "enforcing" and "balls" and "standing up for yourself." What we learned is that -- well, to bring this back to the Wings, an approach like Babs' is perfect for a team that wants to not only be tough, but also win it all. (We went on to win Nationals that season.) Babs doesn't get hung up on any one aspect of toughness -- especially the least important one, fighting. Fighting is a form of toughness, an expression of toughness. It's not toughness itself. Therefore, having two fighters on your team does not automatically make the whole squad a tough one -- and not having two fighters on your team doesn't automatically make the whole team a "soft" one.

I've said it two dozen times already, and I'll say it again: this team tore through the postseason (you know, the season that's a lot tougher than the other one) and won the Cup with only one of its enforcer-types dressed, and he got very little playing time. And -- correct me if I'm wrong -- he had about one good scrum the entire run. And it was in the Avs series, so it meant practically nothing.

What does that tell you?

Edited by Dabura

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Dump-N-Thump
I'll cover for you, NFM. GMR: Don Cherry does not count.

Andre Roy said something along the lines about us being the only team without a enforcer/fighter. I'll try and find link though..

Anyway.

Yah...

Can we just agree that the wings will be a good team this year, Boring.. But good.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Andre Roy said something along the lines about us being the only team without a enforcer/fighter. I'll try and find link though..

Anyway.

Yah...

Can we just agree that the wings will be a good team this year, Boring.. But good.

I firmly believe that is not the same thing as calling the Wings "soft".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Do they, though? Like I said, both Babcock and Bowman would dress Kopecky before Downey in the postseason. What does that tell you? That tells you Downey has his role, his place, his value, but when you get right down to it, his total package (or lack thereof?) puts him at the bottom of the totem pole -- i.e., as a healthy scratch in the playoffs. It's no coincidence that Mac, who many not fight as well as Downy in his old age but has a better overall game, got to play in the playoffs instead of the other resident tough guy, Downey.

Sure, if fighting's the only thing Babs looks at. It's not, though. As such, your statement is arbitrary and inane.

Downey barely played. There's a reason for that: he's a liability. This shouldn't even be up for debate; beyond fighting and yapping, the guy has no game.

Poor comparison, poor argument. Drake played more minutes than Downey, and he spent those minutes on the fourth line. That's not going to do wonders for anyone's +/-.

Bottom line: Drake got the nod over Downey because he's a much better player.

Shucks howdy, GMR, thanks for giving me the thoughtful, intelligent, well-reasoned response I asked for!

"Around the rest of the league"? Try "around watering holes and dinner tables."

I've played hockey. I've coached hockey. I learned at a young age that toughness in hockey is a multi-dimensional thing. A coach of mine wanted to make a point about toughness (specifically, what it's all about). Did he teach us how to fight? No, he enrolled the team in a tournament in Toronto, where we (a AAA team -- a great team) had our asses handed to us, and in the process learned a lot about toughness and "grit" and "enforcing" and "balls" and "standing up for yourself." What we learned is that -- well, to bring this back to the Wings, an approach like Babs' is perfect for a team that wants to not only be tough, but also win it all. (We went on to win Nationals that season.) Babs doesn't get hung up on any one aspect of toughness -- especially the least important one, fighting. Fighting is a form of toughness, an expression of toughness. It's not toughness itself. Therefore, having two fighters on your team does not automatically make the whole squad a tough one -- and not having two fighters on your team doesn't automatically make the whole team a "soft" one.

I've said it two dozen times already, and I'll say it again: this team tore through the postseason (you know, the season that's a lot tougher than the other one) and won the Cup with only one of its enforcer-types dressed, and he got very little playing time. And -- correct me if I'm wrong -- he had about one good scrum the entire run. And it was in the Avs series, so it meant practically nothing.

What does that tell you?

There's no reason to give you any long responses. Everything I've wanted to say in this thread I already said a long time ago, and have said many times before on other threads.

The only reason I continue posting in this thread is for pure sport at this point. Also, I enjoy hearing some of you tell me about how insignificant enforcers are and how they don't change the game one way or another, knowing that they are still carried by just about every team in the league.

I can't argue against posters who overlook hockey history so blatantly as if they know more than every team who has ever carried an enforcer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I can't argue against posters who overlook hockey history so blatantly as if they know more than every team who has ever carried an enforcer.

Yet you feel the need to argue against how the Wings do business eh? Interesting.

True or false, you want the Wings to change their style of play merely for your enjoyment and not because it will make the Wings more successful. And by change, I don't mean stay exactly the same from last year, I mean trading away players like Samuelsson, Hudler ect... for people who will drop the gloves even though the people who matter view them as vital cogs in our present success.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I firmly believe that is not the same thing as calling the Wings "soft".

Then why would he even mention it?

When you finish last in the league every year in fighting majors, guess what, that means you're going to be looked at as being softer than other teams. It's only human nature. Trust me, if some other team was last in fighting majors every year while the Wings were near the top, you'd be thinking the same thing about that team being soft.

I'm not saying it means we can't win, I'm just saying that that's the outlook by other teams.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.