Jiri Hudler

[Heaton 1]

That was then; this is now. We have no such rivalry anymore.

The point was, considering the hatred and fights in the regular season, during the playoffs the fighting was almost non-existant.

[Kp-Wings 3]

Agreed. Drake didn't have a great season. But I've not seen Kopecky or Helm throw any hit even approaching some of the ones Drake is capable of.

I hadn't heard that about Mac. That's good news.

Honestly if it's going to be one guy I'd rather go with McCarty and hope that he can get back in shape and closer to form from his previous years with the Wings. If he can get that together, he has much more to offer than Downey, even though Downey's the better fighter.

This is what I've been saying the whole time when it comes to a replacement for Drake. It especially bothers me when they think Kopecky is that guy. He doesn't have the tenacity or mean streak that Drake had. Just because a guy is big doesn't mean he's physical. Ex: Eric Daze, Branislav Mezei, Nikita Alexeev, etc.

I think on occasion Kopecky tries to be physical, but he's just so bad at it. He usually falls over whenever he tries to hit someone, and his hits are never any good. I am aware of the fact that he did lead the Wings forwards in hits last year, but what's considered a hit and what's considered an actual meaningful hit are two different things. Hit stats are very inflated anymore, since even the slightest bump is considered a hit.

I really would be more comfortable with a proper replacement for Drake; not Kopecky, and not McCarty or Downey either. Downey is too slow and too bad of a skater to do that on a regular basis, as is McCarty. This is why I was pushing for the Wings to sign someone like Darcy Horidichuk, who is a good skater that can play regular minutes while bringing a physical element, but that option is no longer available.

I don't think the Wings physicality is as much an issue as it was a few years ago, but it would be nice if they had someone for next year that could play the style that Drake played. We'll see what happens I guess.

Edited July 26, 2008 by Kp-Wings

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Go and check how many fights Anaheim had in these playoffs or last. You'll find that that answer is nearly zero. Teams don't want to take major penalties of any sort in the playoffs. The playoffs are all business; nobody throws games.

I want an enforcer for the regular season. I don't expect one for the playoffs unless the situation calls for it.

This is what I've been saying the whole time when it comes to a replacement for Drake. It especially bothers me when they think Kopecky is that guy. He doesn't have the tenacity or mean streak that Drake had. Just because a guy is big doesn't mean he's physical. Ex: Eric Daze, Branislav Mezei, Nikita Alexeev, etc.

I think on occasion Kopecky tries to be physical, but he's just so bad at it. He usually falls over whenever he tries to hit someone, and his hits are never any good. I am aware of the fact that he did lead the Wings forwards in hits last year, but what's considered a hit and what's considered an actual meaningful hit are two different things. Hit stats are very inflated anymore, since even the slightest bump is considered a hit.

I really would be more comfortable with a proper replacement for Drake; not Kopecky, and not McCarty or Downey either. Downey is too slow and too bad of a skater to do that on a regular basis, as is McCarty. This is why I was pushing for the Wings to sign someone like Darcy Horidichuk, who is a good skater that can play regular minutes while bringing a physical element, but that option is no longer available.

I don't think the Wings physicality is as much an issue as it was a few years ago, but it would be nice if they had someone for next year that could play the style that Drake played. We'll see what happens I guess.

Didn't you hear? Hordichuk is an enforcer which means that there's no use for him in today's NHL since fighters don't deter or do anything useful besides entertain fans like me.

You're preaching to the wrong crowd here.

People are saying that they don't have anything against enforcers, yet at the same time they write something in their next post about how meaningless and useless enforcers are.

They hypocrisy here is getting silly. Hell, norrisnick is the only non-hypocritical poster since he's been hinting all along about how useless he believes enforcers are. Everyone else needs to make up their damned minds.

[Doc Holiday 0]

Hey GMR how many times did the Wings get ran or intentionally slashed when we didn't have an enforcer?

Look what happened in the finals when Osgood got ran by Sykora. No enforcers in sight yet guys like Franzen were laying the beat down.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Hey GMR how many times did the Wings get ran or intentionally slashed when we didn't have an enforcer?

Look what happened in the finals when Osgood got ran by Sykora. No enforcers in sight yet guys like Franzen were laying the beat down.

There was no beat down, it was just a scrum. Datsyuk got lucky that the refs stepped in, or else Roberts would have murdered him and everyone on LGW would have been begging for Downey to play in the next game for revenge.

But once again, that was the playoffs, and I'm mostly interested in us either retaining Downey for the regular season or bringing in another enforcer. What we do with that enforcer in the playoffs depends mostly on matchups.

[Doc Holiday 0]

There was no beat down, it was just a scrum. Datsyuk got lucky that the refs stepped in, or else Roberts would have murdered him and everyone on LGW would have been begging for Downey to play in the next game for revenge.

But once again, that was the playoffs, and I'm mostly interested in us either retaining Downey for the regular season or bringing in another enforcer. What we do with that enforcer in the playoffs depends mostly on matchups.

I understand, and I would like to have someone to lay the beat down once in awhile, however I don't believe it is paramount to have an enforcer in the line-up to prevent people from taking pot-shots at our guys.

I agree we should have an enforcer, but for different reasons.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

I understand, and I would like to have someone to lay the beat down once in awhile, however I don't believe it is paramount to have an enforcer in the line-up to prevent people from taking pot-shots at our guys.

I agree we should have an enforcer, but for different reasons.

Good post, but I believe there is value to the deterrence argument, which most people who have played hockey believe in.

It's only common sense that teams will be more willing to go after skill players when they know that no one from the other side will be there to retaliate or go after their skill players in turn. It's always easiest to bully someone who has no backup or won't fight back.

For some reason, several posters here have totally ignored that notion, and I can't understand why everyone thinks enforcers have all of a sudden become meaningless.

These aren't even my ideas, since enforcers deterring other teams is something which has been preached for decades. Yet, many people in this thread are willing to overlook all that and then call me out for it, like I'm the only one who believes in this stuff.

[Yemack 1]

let's face it, Wings are sports cars and while they are very versatile they might not be most comfortable to play in destruction derby brand of hockey for 82 games.

IMO, having enforcers more or less turn the game into Wings favour during regular season.

[Dabura 12,232]

For some reason, several posters here have totally ignored that notion, and I can't understand why everyone thinks enforcers have all of a sudden become meaningless.

Once again, you're putting words in people's mouths. No one (no one) has said, "Enforcers have become meaningless." What people have said is that the extent to which this team "needs" enforcers is being overstated by people like you -- and, by this point, only you.

When you get right down to it, this Red Wings team doesn't really need enforcers. It could probably take the Presidents' Trophy without dressing Downey once. It might incur wear and tear, but the Wings have a habit of getting injured in areas of the game that have little-to-nothing to do with enforcing (it's not like those late-season injuries in 07-08 were all carryovers from scrums). But that's pretty much a moot point, as Kenny will be sure to sign at least one tough guy. He's not going to let Drake, Mac and Downey walk without replacing at least one of them. Honestly, it's very likely that he'll bring one or both of the latter two back. Should that happen, we have a very good chance of seeing a repeat of this past postseason run in terms of the role of enforcers in our lineup. Specifically, Downey will sit and Mac will play measly minutes as a grinder. Basically, for the second straight season, the Wings will avoid putting much stock in the enforcer position, and despite/because of (more the latter) this, they'll once again be the most dangerous, competitive team in the postseason (aka, the season that means about 100% more than the regular season and is 100% "tougher").

Edited July 26, 2008 by Dabura

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

To further beat this more than dead horse:

I guess the part that baffles me and in part is why this conversation has gone on so long (at least my part in it), is that when we talk about the Wings not needing enforcers or guys who can fight in their lineup, we're not talking about a hypothetical situation. We already know what that looks like. That WAS this team in 06 and 07. (Bootland and Norton do not count).

And I remember time and time again guys getting run at. Cheapshotted. The Wings getting knocked around. Certain teams more than others, but that was an effective strategy for teams against the Wings. Hit the wings hard enough, and they will wither. And people here were generally up in arms about it.

That's what this team looks like without a couple guys who are respectable fighters.

Part of the overall team toughness being increased this past season is not just because of how guys like Drake and Downey themselves played, but also how they affected the play of their teammates. You skate a little bigger when you've got those guys in your lineup watching your back.

[Heaton 1]

And I remember time and time again guys getting run at. Cheapshotted. The Wings getting knocked around. Certain teams more than others, but that was an effective strategy for teams against the Wings. Hit the wings hard enough, and they will wither. And people here were generally up in arms about it.

That may as well be ancient history, we may as well have a thread about needing secondary scoring to go along with this one. The past two playoff and regular seasons have dispelled any questions about whether or not the most effective way to beat the Wings is to hit them hard and watch them not give up. The opposite has been happening, the other teams have been withering.

Staying the course is something to talk about, but acting like the last two years didn't happen in the playoffs is another. I'm not saying you in particular are acting this way, but good lord who's system is working better than the Wings as it stands? Nobody.

People are so worried that the Wings are going to be so vulnerable this year for whatever reason, someone that guys want WILL be there, but it won't be a McGrattan or someone of that ilk but the person there will do the job as needed by THIS team. Not every team philosophy is the same and not every system would work for every team. People thought the way Anaheim played would make every team copy them, well that's impossible you need so many things to go right to win like they did. Same with the Wings, no other team can pull off what the Wings do in their system.

[norrisnick 1]

To further beat this more than dead horse:

I guess the part that baffles me and in part is why this conversation has gone on so long (at least my part in it), is that when we talk about the Wings not needing enforcers or guys who can fight in their lineup, we're not talking about a hypothetical situation. We already know what that looks like. That WAS this team in 06 and 07. (Bootland and Norton do not count).

And I remember time and time again guys getting run at. Cheapshotted. The Wings getting knocked around. Certain teams more than others, but that was an effective strategy for teams against the Wings. Hit the wings hard enough, and they will wither. And people here were generally up in arms about it.

That's what this team looks like without a couple guys who are respectable fighters.

Part of the overall team toughness being increased this past season is not just because of how guys like Drake and Downey themselves played, but also how they affected the play of their teammates. You skate a little bigger when you've got those guys in your lineup watching your back.

You're imagining things. Teams didn't play us any differently those two years than they did last season.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

You're imagining things. Teams didn't play us any differently those two years than they did last season.

that's because when they tried to play us that same way this past season, the Wings had the toughness to respond. I don't understand how people can talk about the Wings stepping up their toughness this past season and not see Drake, Downey and to a lesser extent Mac as a significant part of that. Without those guys out there, and the addition of Stuart, it doesn't happen. they didn't just magically get tougher.

you don't remember Williams getting his head taken off? or Lebda? or any of the other cheapshots and physical play that went unanswered those two seasons? I guess you really don't watch the games.

The funny thing is it was Drake who put the hit on Lebda. I guess Kenny liked what he saw.

Furthermore, people act as if the only reason the Wings lost to Anaheim was a couple fluke injuries. I watched that series. By the end they were getting pushed to the perimeter. The Ducks ground them down. And it's also no coincidence that the Wings were amazingly healthy this postseason, as they didn't have to play San Jose or Anaheim.

Edited July 26, 2008 by haroldsnepsts

[Heaton 1]

Furthermore, people act as if the only reason the Wings lost to Anaheim was a couple fluke injuries. I watched that series. By the end they were getting pushed to the perimeter. The Ducks ground them down. And it's also no coincidence that the Wings were amazingly healthy this postseason, as they didn't have to play San Jose or Anaheim.

You saw what you wanted to see in that series, but whatever, we've had this conversation before about the reasons. The Wings wore down Calgary and San Jose last year, we imposed our will onto them. Drake was a huge contributer in the playoffs this year but we still win the cup without him. Big bad Anahiem got rolled by Dallas and we inturn rolled them up like we always do.

You don't get the WCF within 1 minute of taking a commanding 3-2 series lead by being soft, that's a fact. There's no debating that we lost to the eventual Stanley Cup Chmpions, but come on harold, the Wings get no credit for that? The Wings aren't contenders now that Drake retired? They can't win without him? That's basically what you're saying.

Of course the Wings were tougher last year and they'll be tougher this year with a full year of Stuart. But they're also better, better offensively, better defensively, better all-around. The Wings know how to win in the playoffs and have all the tools to do so, and that's all that matters.

[skacore 2]

You saw what you wanted to see in that series, but whatever, we've had this conversation before about the reasons. The Wings wore down Calgary and San Jose last year, we imposed our will onto them. Drake was a huge contributer in the playoffs this year but we still win the cup without him. Big bad Anahiem got rolled by Dallas and we inturn rolled them up like we always do.

You don't get the WCF within 1 minute of taking a commanding 3-2 series lead by being soft, that's a fact. There's no debating that we lost to the eventual Stanley Cup Chmpions, but come on harold, the Wings get no credit for that? The Wings aren't contenders now that Drake retired? They can't win without him? That's basically what you're saying.

Of course the Wings were tougher last year and they'll be tougher this year with a full year of Stuart. But they're also better, better offensively, better defensively, better all-around. The Wings know how to win in the playoffs and have all the tools to do so, and that's all that matters.

He's suggesting that Drake, Downey, and McCarty had an impact on how the other players on the Wings play, not just what they bring themselves. If people don't want to believe that there's a different aura when Downey is in the line up then that is fine but I've seen a few people now bring up the fact that Datsyuk lead the Wings in hits in the playoffs, and I remember reading an article where he specifically gave a lot of credit to Dallas Drake as a mentor.

I've stayed out of this thread because I think people are getting worked up over nothing, Holland has stated we'll be carrying an enforcer next season, so at the very least we're looking at Darren McCarty, that's a lot is better than 05-06, 06-07.

[Heaton 1]

I remember reading an article where he specifically gave a lot of credit to Dallas Drake as a mentor.

I don't doubt that for a second but these are big boys and can carry that lead without a Dallas Drake being around. I'm sure Kopecky and Helm learned some things watching and playing with him too, they don't need to see him as an every day lead dog to continue the trend.

I'm guessing we'll go through the season with McCary and/or Downey and then at the trade deadline pick up a veteran grinding forward for the cup run.

I've stayed out of this thread because I think people are getting worked up over nothing, Holland has stated we'll be carrying an enforcer next season, so at the very least we're looking at Darren McCarty, that's a lot is better than 05-06, 06-07.

Well no kidding, which is why I'm a little baffled as to why people are still talking like this isn't the case.

[Guest Dump-N-Thump]

Its not enough.

[Heaton 1]

Its not enough.

It's more than last year.

[norrisnick 1]

You want more, you need to scout some fighters for Kenny that are better players than the guys we have patrolling our 4th line.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

You saw what you wanted to see in that series, but whatever, we've had this conversation before about the reasons. The Wings wore down Calgary and San Jose last year, we imposed our will onto them. Drake was a huge contributer in the playoffs this year but we still win the cup without him. Big bad Anahiem got rolled by Dallas and we inturn rolled them up like we always do.

You don't get the WCF within 1 minute of taking a commanding 3-2 series lead by being soft, that's a fact. There's no debating that we lost to the eventual Stanley Cup Chmpions, but come on harold, the Wings get no credit for that? The Wings aren't contenders now that Drake retired? They can't win without him? That's basically what you're saying.

Of course the Wings were tougher last year and they'll be tougher this year with a full year of Stuart. But they're also better, better offensively, better defensively, better all-around. The Wings know how to win in the playoffs and have all the tools to do so, and that's all that matters.

I've said nothing even approaching that.

But people seem to think that those players also had no factor in the Wings playing tougher this past season. that the Wings just magically started playing tougher and figured out how to win. It's about talent, chemistry and role players.

I saw what I wanted to see? If that's true then the Wings would've beaten Anaheim and gone on to win the Cup. All I can do is comment on what I witnessed. By the end of the series the Wings were getting pushed off the puck and weren't going to the high traffic areas as much as they were earlier.

I've never said anything to the effect that the Wings aren't contenders. That they can't win. I'm merely stating that part of the reason they were the team they were last year was because of the roles that Drake, Downey and Mac played. And right now we don't have any of that headed into next season. Can they win without them? Probably. But I like their chances a lot better if they have some of that element on the team, like they did last season.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

He's suggesting that Drake, Downey, and McCarty had an impact on how the other players on the Wings play, not just what they bring themselves. If people don't want to believe that there's a different aura when Downey is in the line up then that is fine but I've seen a few people now bring up the fact that Datsyuk lead the Wings in hits in the playoffs, and I remember reading an article where he specifically gave a lot of credit to Dallas Drake as a mentor.

I've stayed out of this thread because I think people are getting worked up over nothing, Holland has stated we'll be carrying an enforcer next season, so at the very least we're looking at Darren McCarty, that's a lot is better than 05-06, 06-07.

Exactly.

And unfortunately the one point I do agree with NNick on is that even with an offseason to get in shape, Mac probably won't be anywhere near the player he was. So if it's just him doing the heavy lifting in enforcing, then we've lost a fair amount.

I don't doubt that for a second but these are big boys and can carry that lead without a Dallas Drake being around. I'm sure Kopecky and Helm learned some things watching and playing with him too, they don't need to see him as an every day lead dog to continue the trend.

I'm guessing we'll go through the season with McCary and/or Downey and then at the trade deadline pick up a veteran grinding forward for the cup run.

This is where the argument gets weak for me. I've never seen Kopecky or Helm throw a hit or get in a fight that approaches anything that Drake or Downey could do.

I'd be fine with us going with a combo of mac and downey, then picking someone up at the deadline. Again, it's not that I don't think Kenny won't do it, I just don't get how many people here think it's unimportant when to me this past season proved exactly how important it is.

Edited July 26, 2008 by haroldsnepsts

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

You want more, you need to scout some fighters for Kenny that are better players than the guys we have patrolling our 4th line.

This is what your argument has come to?

That if we want more now it's up to us to go scout it? Last season when we wanted secondary scoring, should I have been out looking for a winger?? Should I be looking for a franchise goaltender right now?

wtf are you talking about?

[Heaton 1]

I've never said anything to the effect that the Wings aren't contenders. That they can't win. I'm merely stating that part of the reason they were the team they were last year was because of the roles that Drake, Downey and Mac played. And right now we don't have any of that headed into next season. Can they win without them? Probably. But I like their chances a lot better if they have some of that element on the team, like they did last season.

I think you're really underestimating what a full year of Stuart will do as well. He hits just as hard as anyone on the team and will fight if necessary even though he doesn't do it that often. Going back a while ago about big hitters who will have to answer the bell eventually, look at a guy like Dustin Brown, he had well over 300 hits this year and had 1 fight. In fact he's had more than 700 hits in his young career and has like 7 fights total and usually they're not even full blown fights.

The problem in this thread is the timing, it's July 26th, we have half a dozen plays that still need to get signed and people are growing impatient that our dime a dozen 4th liners aren't signed yet? Where the hell are McCarty and Downey going to go? They've been offered contracts, nothing else Holland can do.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

I think you're really underestimating what a full year of Stuart will do as well. He hits just as hard as anyone on the team and will fight if necessary even though he doesn't do it that often. Going back a while ago about big hitters who will have to answer the bell eventually, look at a guy like Dustin Brown, he had well over 300 hits this year and had 1 fight. In fact he's had more than 700 hits in his young career and has like 7 fights total and usually they're not even full blown fights.

The problem in this thread is the timing, it's July 26th, we have half a dozen plays that still need to get signed and people are growing impatient that our dime a dozen 4th liners aren't signed yet? Where the hell are McCarty and Downey going to go? They've been offered contracts, nothing else Holland can do.

you're probably right. Stuart and a healthy Kronwall will definitely keep players heads on a swivel. It'll be fun to watch this season.

And it is early. And I'm fairly sure Kenny will try and get some enforcer. Like I said, I'm just amazed that people seem to think we don't need it when to me last season proved the exact opposite.

[Heaton 1]

This is where the argument gets weak for me. I've never seen Kopecky or Helm throw a hit or get in a fight that approaches anything that Drake or Downey could do.

Drake had maybe 3 big hits in the entire regular season, the goal of a player like Drake isn't to always run the defender through the boards it's to consistently hit the other player to wear them down. That's exactly what Helm did in the playoffs and Kopecky did during the regular season. Drake had more fights last year than he did in any other single season in his career. He knew it was his last year and he was going to leave everything on the ice, I'm sure he also wanted to make a statement about how much he wanted to win.

We cannot expect anyone coming in to duplicate that unless that's how they always play. We all know Drake was brought in for the playoffs, that's it, if the fans on this board took a vote halfway through the year whether or not he'd be playing I'd bet the majority would want him in the pressbox, but he showed his worth in the playoffs. That is something Kopecky has never had the chance to do because of injuries. I'm expecting a Drake type to be added at the deadline, some hungry veteran who wants to win.