Jiri Hudler

[norrisnick 1]

This is what your argument has come to?

That if we want more now it's up to us to go scout it? Last season when we wanted secondary scoring, should I have been out looking for a winger?? Should I be looking for a franchise goaltender right now?

wtf are you talking about?

Better than bitching that re-signing Mac isn't enough. IMO that's too much because not only is Mac not the best of fighters but he's also abyssmally bad out on the ice.

It doesn't matter how well you fight if you can't be put out on the ice because you're a liability. Remember all those games when Parker would glare out on the ice from the Avs' bench, but never take more than a shift or two? He was beyond useless.

[skacore 2]

Going back a while ago about big hitters who will have to answer the bell eventually, look at a guy like Dustin Brown, he had well over 300 hits this year and had 1 fight. In fact he's had more than 700 hits in his young career and has like 7 fights total and usually they're not even full blown fights.

I don't really think Dustin Brown is a good example for that, he actually had 4 fights this year. He's being challenged much more often now that he has established himself as an elite hitter. He's actually a decent fighter though so that's almost becoming just another elemental to his game.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Better than bitching that re-signing Mac isn't enough. IMO that's too much because not only is Mac not the best of fighters but he's also abyssmally bad out on the ice.

It doesn't matter how well you fight if you can't be put out on the ice because you're a liability. Remember all those games when Parker would glare out on the ice from the Avs' bench, but never take more than a shift or two? He was beyond useless.

I know. I hated all those years Parker was on the Wings...

oh. wait.

Were you not watching last season when Downey was on the team? The guy skates worse than I do, but knew his role and made the most of his minutes without being a liability.

So you'd rather have a Wings team with no McCarty? No Downey? No Drake? And no one of those type of player to replace them?

[Dabura 12,232]

Furthermore, people act as if the only reason the Wings lost to Anaheim was a couple fluke injuries. I watched that series. By the end they were getting pushed to the perimeter. The Ducks ground them down.

Please. It was a tough series, no doubt, but if Datsyuk doesn't get called for that bogus late hooking/obstruction/whatever it was, the Wings take that series. That's not to say, "The Wings basically won." Rather, it's to say that this argument that the Ducks won because they dominated with their physical play is pretty lame. If there was any sort of "domination" on the Ducks' part, it was because the Wings had a woefully depleted blue line. People forget, but a lot of Ducks fans were scared s***less after that 5-0 rout.

But that was then, this is now. The Ducks are now a crappy team whose GM is looking to leave ASAP. The Flames are, once again, "ultra tough," and, once again, destined for an early playoff exit (bank on it). The Sharks are a threat, but last season the Wings handily beat the guys who beat them. And they've lost Campbell, which is going to hurt them.

The Wings were the class of the league last season. Now they've got Marian Hossa. If someone wants to head over to, I don't know, the Kings' boards and say, "Hi! I'm a Wings fan! We've got a pretty good roster, but we might only be carrying one enforcer this season. I'm worried. Thoughts?" then by all means, do so. Let me know how it goes over.

[FinRedWing 172]

So you'd rather have a Wings team with no McCarty? No Downey? No Drake? And no one of those type of player to replace them?

I think we all know NN dreams of a team full of Hudlers.

[norrisnick 1]

you're probably right. Stuart and a healthy Kronwall will definitely keep players heads on a swivel. It'll be fun to watch this season.

And it is early. And I'm fairly sure Kenny will try and get some enforcer. Like I said, I'm just amazed that people seem to think we don't need it when to me last season proved the exact opposite.

Ok. Walk me through this proof we witnessed last season.

1. Downey plays 50 games or so in the regular season.

2. We finish 1st like we have the three seasons before that.

3. He doesn't play a second of playoff ice time.

4. We win the cup.

There is no connection between #1 and #4 as is evident by points #2 and #3.

[Heaton 1]

I don't really think Dustin Brown is a good example for that, he actually had 4 fights this year. He's being challenged much more often now that he has established himself as an elite hitter. He's actually a decent fighter though so that's almost becoming just another elemental to his game.

Actually 3 and one of them was against Langkow who isn't even a fighter.

The funny thing is, if the LA Kings were successful at all I bet Brown would fight even less.

[norrisnick 1]

I know. I hated all those years Parker was on the Wings...

oh. wait.

Were you not watching last season when Downey was on the team? The guy skates worse than I do, but knew his role and made the most of his minutes without being a liability.

So you'd rather have a Wings team with no McCarty? No Downey? No Drake? And no one of those type of player to replace them?

Because Bowman knew a player like that was worthless.

And yet he didn't get a second of playoff icetime and a rookie with half a dozen games to his name played instead.

If by type you mean bad at the game of hockey (which Dallas was throughout the regular season), yes. Find a tough guy that can play, sure why not. I don't care whether a guys fights or is good at fighting. I find it largely irrelevant. But the guy better be able to play hockey.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Ok. Walk me through this proof we witnessed last season.

1. Downey plays 50 games or so in the regular season.

2. We finish 1st like we have the three seasons before that.

3. He doesn't play a second of playoff ice time.

4. We win the cup.

There is no connection between #1 and #4 as is evident by points #2 and #3.

It's not a math equation. It's not statistics. It's hockey.

And I'm not just talking about Downey. I'm talking about Drake, Downey, and McCarty.

This team played more cohesively and tougher than it had those previous seasons. Those guys had something to do with that change in chemistry.

Edited: response below.

Edited July 26, 2008 by haroldsnepsts

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Because Bowman knew a player like that was worthless.

And yet he didn't get a second of playoff icetime and a rookie with half a dozen games to his name played instead.

If by type you mean bad at the game of hockey (which Dallas was throughout the regular season), yes. Find a tough guy that can play, sure why not. I don't care whether a guys fights or is good at fighting. I find it largely irrelevant. But the guy better be able to play hockey.

That's the crux of it.

Just because you think it's so doesn't make it a reality. It's a relevant part of hockey. And a relevant part of winning.

[Dabura 12,232]

Ah, but NN didn't say he thinks it's wholly irrelevant; he said he think it's "largely irrelevant." And for a team like the Wings, it truly is. This past postseason run is proof.

Edited July 26, 2008 by Dabura

[norrisnick 1]

That's the crux of it.

Just because you think it's so doesn't make it a reality. It's a relevant part of hockey. And a relevant part of winning.

The relevant part of winning is offensive and defensive ability. Anything else is just for style points. Slap a pornstache on Hudler and it would have the same level of impact as if he had a great haymaker. There is a reason fighting disappears during the playoffs. That reason being the games are far too important to f*** around with silly fighting. That should tell you a little bit about the relevancy of fighting and fighters. When the games get important, they sit and/or get firm yank on the chokecollar to keep them in line.

We finish first overall whether we have a fighter or not. It's what we do in the playoffs that matter. And in the playoffs guys like Downey and the current Mac don't matter. I'll say this for Drake. He stepped up and was a pleasant surprise, but he should count himself lucky that we had some injuries down the stretch and at the start of the playoffs or he never would have gotten a chance to show what he was capable of.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Ah, but NN didn't say he thinks it's wholly irrelevant; he said he think it's "largely irrelevant." And for a team like the Wings, it truly is. This past postseason run is proof.

which is why I asked specifically is he would prefer a Red Wings team without Drake, Mac and Downey, and no one filling their roles as hitters and fighters. To try and avoid semantics arguments.

[norrisnick 1]

which is why I asked specifically is he would prefer a Red Wings team without Drake, Mac and Downey, and no one filling their roles as hitters and fighters. To try and avoid semantics arguments.

We're a better team without those three, yes.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

We're a better team without those three, yes.

That's all I needed to know.

I'm done.

[Dabura 12,232]

I sure do hate the offseason.

[norrisnick 1]

That's all I needed to know.

I'm done.

Catch ya around.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Because Bowman knew a player like that was worthless.

And yet he didn't get a second of playoff icetime and a rookie with half a dozen games to his name played instead.

If by type you mean bad at the game of hockey (which Dallas was throughout the regular season), yes. Find a tough guy that can play, sure why not. I don't care whether a guys fights or is good at fighting. I find it largely irrelevant. But the guy better be able to play hockey.

What is your definition of "can play hockey"?

Ah, but NN didn't say he thinks it's wholly irrelevant; he said he think it's "largely irrelevant." And for a team like the Wings, it truly is. This past postseason run is proof.

What are you, his publicist?

He's pretty much stated throughout this thread that he feels fighters are useless, yet you keep saying that no one thinks that way.

You need to work on your comprehension skills instead of questioning everyone else's.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Catch ya around.

Last word.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

We're a better team without those three, yes.

How are we better?

Every team needs balance. If we lose those 3, we're once again back to a one-dimensional team full of softies who know that no one will back them up if they try to play more physical themselves.

Do you want to see Franzen and Sammy get beat up and embarassed again? I sure as hell don't.

Well, at least not with Franzen.

[Heaton 1]

If we lose those 3, we're once again back to a one-dimensional team full of softies who know that no one will back them up if they try to play more physical themselves.

Haha, wow. I'm sure Kronwall, Stuart and all of our other guys of their ilk are going to be hearing footsteps all next season when McCarty isn't in the lineup.

[norrisnick 1]

How are we better?

Every team needs balance. If we lose those 3, we're once again back to a one-dimensional team full of softies who know that no one will back them up if they try to play more physical themselves.

Do you want to see Franzen and Sammy get beat up and embarassed again? I sure as hell don't.

Well, at least not with Franzen.

How are we worse? We've got Stuart full time. Hossa. Kopecky should be healthy. We're now aware of what Helm can do. Fil, Franzen, and Hudler should be a year better with the confidence of the playoff run. Ericsson will probably see part of the season. Etc...

Mac played what? 20 games total regular season and playoffs? Drake was bad during the regular season. Downey didn't even average 5 minutes a game.

Just what are we losing?

And that team of softies won the cup this spring.

[Dabura 12,232]

And that team of softies won the cup this spring.

Yeah, but we had Drake and Mac. You take out those guys...we're toast, man.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Haha, wow. I'm sure Kronwall, Stuart and all of our other guys of their ilk are going to be hearing footsteps all next season when McCarty isn't in the lineup.

They will when they're getting their ass kicked by someone else's fighters.

Yeah, Mac wasn't a great fighter at this point, but at least he knew his job. Who's going to take his beatings now? Franzen? Stuart? Kronwall?

Take your pick.

How are we worse? We've got Stuart full time. Hossa. Kopecky should be healthy. We're now aware of what Helm can do. Fil, Franzen, and Hudler should be a year better with the confidence of the playoff run. Ericsson will probably see part of the season. Etc...

Mac played what? 20 games total regular season and playoffs? Drake was bad during the regular season. Downey didn't even average 5 minutes a game.

Just what are we losing?

And that team of softies won the cup this spring.

That argument is worth s***. We're not a better team because we lost 3 physical players, we're just a better team because we signed Hossa.

If those guys are so meaningless, how come Babcock and the great Kenny Holland even bothered using them? Why didn't we just replace them the entire season with some euro *******? Why did Holland even use Downey at all? Could it be because he felt there was some need for a physical player that could stand up for his teammates? Or do you have the real answer?

[norrisnick 1]

And people questioned me for asking whether people believed adding Hossa and losing Drake/McCarty would weaken our chances...