Jiri Hudler

[Doc Holiday 0]

So? The end result was still a goal because of Kronwall making a bad play.

If you're going to argue it like that, then I'll say you can't blame Hudler either because the face of the Penguins player got in the way of his stick.

Really? You are going to make that comparison?

It wasn't a bad play. He tried to get it out of in front of the net and into the corner, a very low percentage area. What happened was a skate happened to be in the path of the puck.

Hudler lifted his stick high into the air while right next to a Penguins player. You just don't do that, because you know the odds are someone is going to be around that stick.

Terrible comparison.

[Guest Crymson]

So? The end result was still a goal because of Kronwall making a bad play.

If you're going to argue it like that, then I'll say you can't blame Hudler either because the face of the Penguins player got in the way of his stick.

It was bad luck, not a bad play. Firing the puck from the crease to behind the net is standard practice.

In any event, since you think he sucks so badly as a result of this one act, why not go back in time and remove him from the lineup and see how the Wings do?

Then try the same for Hudler.

Without one or the other, we probably wouldn't have won the Cup.

Why wouldn't have more sucess with better players?

Hudler had success at even strength playing alongside Helm and Maltby/McCarty. That's significant. Helm has offensive upside of sorts, but neither Maltby nor McCarty does. This means that Hudler ran much of the offense on that line on his own.

Edited July 20, 2008 by Crymson

[bellarina 1]

Because he is a Red Wing

I agree totally, as long as they wear the winged wheel I like 'em.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Personally, I think Wings fans are just spoiled...

All 2007/2008 NHL forwards scoring 40-50pts in at least 60 games (1 point per X minutes)

Nilsson 24.1

Jokinen 24.8 (14 of his 42pts coming in 20 games centered by VL)

Cogliano - 24.9

Cammalleri - 24.9

Gagner - 25.3

Hudler - 25.4

Semin - 25.4

Wolski - 25.5

Cleary - 26.1

Umberger - 26.4

Legwand - 26.5

Recchi - 26.8

Reinprecht - 27.6

Kunitz - 27.7

Bertuzzi - 28

Kotalik - 28.1

M. Koivu - 28.3

Langenbrunner - 28.6

Booth - 28.8

Pavelski - 28.9

Fedorov - 29.3

Shanahan - 29.4

Straka - 29.5

Hecht - 29.6

Marleau - 29.6

Dubinsky - 29.7

Samuelsson - 29.7

Comrie - 29.8

Penner - 30

Hartnell - 30

Weiss - 30.9

Hagman - 31.1

Kozlov - 31.9

Perrin - 32

Guerin - 32

Steen - 32.7

Fisher - 33

Halpern - 33.2

Satan - 35.8

Madden - 36.2

Hunter - 36.4

Guess how many of these players make multiple millions a year...

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Really? You are going to make that comparison?

It wasn't a bad play. He tried to get it out of in front of the net and into the corner, a very low percentage area. What happened was a skate happened to be in the path of the puck.

Hudler lifted his stick high into the air while right next to a Penguins player. You just don't do that, because you know the odds are someone is going to be around that stick.

Terrible comparison.

You should write this down and mail it to the Wings! We'll eliminate high sticking penalties next year!

[Guest Dump-N-Thump]

Hudler had success at even strength playing alongside Helm and Maltby/McCarty. That's significant. Helm has offensive upside of sorts, but neither Maltby nor McCarty does. This means that Hudler ran much of the offense on that line on his own.

With more skilled players Hudler doesn't take charge the way he does when he plays with lesser skilled players.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Heres another interesting stat.

192 forwards had more Total TOI than Jiri Hudler did. Of those 192 players, Hudler scored as much or more than 78 (40%) of them.

Edited July 21, 2008 by YoungGuns1340

[Anomalously 0]

Heres another interesting stat.

192 forwards had more Total TOI than Jiri Hudler did. Of those 192 players, Hudler scored as much or more than 78 (40%) of them.

It'd be interesting to see how many scored more with less time. Probably a very select group.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

It'd be interesting to see how many scored more with less time. Probably a very select group.

There are definitely players who scored more with less time. You can see players from my other posts that at least 5 players in the 40-50 point range did. Sakic, Horcoff, and Lupul off the top of my head as well scored more with less time, but that statistic is more to point out what I said in my original statistical post, that Wings fans are spoiled.

In particular, take a look around the league at how teams value players like Booth, Gagner, Semin, Wolski, Dubinsky, and Weiss, and then take a look at how Hudler compared with those guys in points per minute. A lot of those guys are considered untouchable (within reason) by their clubs, and while there are typically more pros than cons when you compare them to Hudler, there isnt enough between those guys and Hudler to make them of "high value" while Wings fans consider a slightly lesser player than some of those guys to be "trade bait" or "worth about a bag of pucks".

The only explanation for it is that Wings fans are spoiled to the point where our "junk" literally would be another teams treasure..

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Hudler sucks because he doesn't randomly punch people in the face like those big Canadian players always do.

[bellarina 1]

Hudler sucks because he doesn't randomly punch people in the face like those big Canadian players always do.

You've been drinking too much jerkwater.

[Reilly 24]

Hudler lifted his stick high into the air while right next to a Penguins player. You just don't do that, because you know the odds are someone is going to be around that stick.

Really? You mean to tell me players shouldn't do that? Excellent point.

[Guest Crymson]

Really? You mean to tell me players shouldn't do that? Excellent point.

Do you have anything constructive to add to the conversation, or would you rather spend your time talking about how the members of this Stanley Cup-winning team suck due to some individual action or another?

[Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA]

There are definitely players who scored more with less time. You can see players from my other posts that at least 5 players in the 40-50 point range did. Sakic, Horcoff, and Lupul off the top of my head as well scored more with less time, but that statistic is more to point out what I said in my original statistical post, that Wings fans are spoiled.

In particular, take a look around the league at how teams value players like Booth, Gagner, Semin, Wolski, Dubinsky, and Weiss, and then take a look at how Hudler compared with those guys in points per minute. A lot of those guys are considered untouchable (within reason) by their clubs, and while there are typically more pros than cons when you compare them to Hudler, there isnt enough between those guys and Hudler to make them of "high value" while Wings fans consider a slightly lesser player than some of those guys to be "trade bait" or "worth about a bag of pucks".

The only explanation for it is that Wings fans are spoiled to the point where our "junk" literally would be another teams treasure..

Very very nice statistics, espeically the whole points for minute post. To further the discussion the select view who did score more per minute (Lupul, Sakic, ECT) are always considered either way more valuable than Huds, or most probably had better linemates

[Doggy 130]

Guys like Gagner, Wolski, Semin, etc. have pretty bright futures and are nowhere near their prime. You really should acknowledge that if you compare them to Hudler.

[eva unit zero 271]

Guys like Gagner, Wolski, Semin, etc. have pretty bright futures and are nowhere near their prime. You really should acknowledge that if you compare them to Hudler.

I think, as far as Wolski and Semin are concerned, that was the POINT.

Hudler is 24

Wolski is 22

Semin is 24

If he's producing as well as they are offensively, and performing better defensively and in clutch situations...what makes their future so much brighter?

The fact that they play on teams with fewer good players?

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Guys like Gagner, Wolski, Semin, etc. have pretty bright futures and are nowhere near their prime. You really should acknowledge that if you compare them to Hudler.

Which is why I said:

there are typically more pros than cons when you compare them to Hudler

I never said I would take Hudler over any of them. What I DID say was that there isn't as much difference between Hudler and those guys as there are between the Hudler=healthy scratch and Gagner=untouchable claims that fans of both respective teams make.

Edit: And just to add, If Hudler had been playing on a team like Edmonton, Florida, or Washington, he too would've been getting NHL experience under his belt at age 20, 21, etc, instead of tearing it up in the AHL, and he too would just be entering his prime at age 24 with a few seasons of top 6 minutes under his belt already, instead of only breaking in at age 23 with single digit ice time.

And again, that is not to say Hudler is among the elite youth in this league, but it is most certainly to underline the fact that he is performing at a very impressive rate all things considered, a rate which is highly underestimated by many Wings fans. (And if you ask me, it simply stems from the fact that hes 5'8 and people cant seem to get past that...)

Edit to my edit: Hudler isn't in his prime either..

Edited July 21, 2008 by YoungGuns1340

[Doc Holiday 0]

Really? You mean to tell me players shouldn't do that? Excellent point.

Seems like you believe that Kronwall SHOULDN'T get the puck out of the front of the net. That makes sense.

[Doggy 130]

I think, as far as Wolski and Semin are concerned, that was the POINT.

Hudler is 24

Wolski is 22

Semin is 24

If he's producing as well as they are offensively, and performing better defensively and in clutch situations...what makes their future so much brighter?

The fact that they play on teams with fewer good players?

I wasn't aware Semin was that old. My mistake. However he had a bad past season. Hudler hasn't come close to Semin's rookie season yet and that's why he is valued higher.

[eva unit zero 271]

I wasn't aware Semin was that old. My mistake. However he had a bad past season. Hudler hasn't come close to Semin's rookie season yet and that's why he is valued higher.

Same draft year, Hudler was considered the best European center and Semin the top European winger. They were #2 and #3 among European skaters. Again; HUDLER WAS CONSIDERED JUST AS STRONG A PROSPECT AS SEMIN BY THE NHL'S CENTRAL SCOUTING BUREAU, DESPITE HIS SIZE DISADVANTAGE. The ONLY reason Hudler fell so far is his height; he actually weighed more than Semin at the time. He had displayed his considerable skill in the top Czech league for years, and was considered a can't miss playmaking center. The only question about him was the standard 'What about his size?' applied to all small Europeans. I think he has more than answered that question.

As far as point production...you don't think Hudler could have put up that kind of season in 06-07 playing the majority of it in the East and seeing lots of PP time with Ovechkin?

I wouldn't trade Hudler for Semin.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

I wasn't aware Semin was that old. My mistake. However he had a bad past season. Hudler hasn't come close to Semin's rookie season yet and that's why he is valued higher.

No one ever said Hudler was or should be valued equally to Semin. Honestly, anyone that has seen Semin play knows that his puckhandling skills are much better than many bona fide Top 6 forwards in this leauge, let alone Hudler. But again, people uphold Semin as a future all star (which he may very well be) and cast off Hudler as the bottom of the barrel.

Also, being far down on the depth chart has everything to do with it. Semin had a big year last year, but he also saw over 5:30 PP TOI and over 1,400 minutes of NHL ice. Hudler, on the other hand saw 1:30 of PP TOI and less than 765 minutes of NHL ice time. Thats going to create a pretty big gap between player production regardless of who the variables are.

And AGAIN, because I know people will try and win the argument via the strawman and make some post such as "Oh em gee! You think Hudler is as good as Alex freaking Semin?!??!!one!!". My point is that while there is a gap between highly touted young talent and Hudler, its not nearly as big as its made out to be on this board.

[Heaton 1]

George McPhee has gone on record as saying Semin has more pure skill than Ovechkin. Ovechkin is obviously the better player, though.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Same draft year, Hudler was considered the best European center and Semin the top European winger. They were #2 and #3 among European skaters. Again; HUDLER WAS CONSIDERED JUST AS STRONG A PROSPECT AS SEMIN BY THE NHL'S CENTRAL SCOUTING BUREAU, DESPITE HIS SIZE DISADVANTAGE. The ONLY reason Hudler fell so far is his height; he actually weighed more than Semin at the time. He had displayed his considerable skill in the top Czech league for years, and was considered a can't miss playmaking center. The only question about him was the standard 'What about his size?' applied to all small Europeans. I think he has more than answered that question.

As far as point production...you don't think Hudler could have put up that kind of season in 06-07 playing the majority of it in the East and seeing lots of PP time with Ovechkin?

I wouldn't trade Hudler for Semin.

Yup. And thats what drives me crazy. Forget about Fleury, forget about Gionta. Or St. Louis. Or Sullivan. Or Kane. The list goes on. People can't look past a hockey players height. Thats why Hudler is stuck on the 4th line DESPITE the fact that he produces at a rate that is third among Red Wing forwards. Yes, better than Holmstrom, Cleary, Samuelsson, and Filppula.

Whats funny though, is that Hudler playing as many minutes as any one of those guys, and he'd be on pace for 50+ points.

[Kp-Wings 3]

Hudler sucks because he doesn't randomly punch people in the face like those big Canadian players always do.

I'm surprised this comment didn't upset more people, or cause a massive overration like what usually follows here. I'm giving you a zero for the day for this.

[eva unit zero 271]

My point is that while there is a gap between highly touted young talent and Hudler, its not nearly as big as its made out to be on this board.

Until he was drafted by Detroit and became "just another prospect" Hudler WAS highly touted young talent.

But let's take a look real quick at the Hudler vs Semin comparison for last year and this year.

As neither player scored a SH point, we'll ignore SH situations completely since this is a comparison of scoring.

Hudler 06-07

647:00 ESTOI, 114:54 PPTOI

12-8-20 ESP, 3-2-5 PPP, 15-10-25 TP

Hudler 07-08

847:35 ESTOI, 218:05 PPTOI

10-17-27 ESP, 3-12-15 PPP, 13-29-42 TP

Semin 06-07

971:05 ESTOI, 440:35 PPTOI

21-14-35 ESP, 17-21-38 PPP, 38-35-73 TP

Semin 07-08

780:48 ESTOI, 281:48 PPTOI

16-6-22 ESP, 10-10-20 PPP, 26-16-42 TP

Alright, now let's see what each player would have done in those years with the same scoring rate (meaning same linemates and opposition) at the other players' amount of minutes:

Hudler 06-07 (Semin's time)

971:05 ESTOI, 440:35 PPTOI

18-12-30 ESP, 12-8-20 PPP, 30-20-50 TP

Hudler 07-08 (Semin's time)

780:48 ESTOI, 281:48 PPTOI

9-16-25 ESP, 4-16-20 PPP, 13-32-45 TP

Semin 06-07 (Hudler's time)

647:00 ESTOI, 114:54 PPTOI

14-9-23 ESP, 4-5-9 PPP, 18-14-32 TP

Semin 07-08 (Hudler's time)

847:35 ESTOI, 218:05 PPTOI

17-7-24 ESP, 8-8-16 PPP, 25-15-40 TP

Yep, that Semin has such a bright future and performed SO much better than Hudler did, he didn't just get

more ice time (and tons of it on the PP) alongside a Hart trophy candidate or anything. No sir.

Hudler>Semin.