Franzen vs. Hossa

[Nero 20]

We won the cup with Osgood playing lights out. Is he going to repeat and have a career year again?

That point is moot.

(Hossa was TIED with Hank for the most points in the playoffs btw)

The point isn't moot. We didn't have Hossa last year. We didn't need him to win. Especially if it involves removing one of the key elements of our latest championship. I'm not saying that Franzen is better than Hossa. I'm not going there at all. My point is that this whole argument is stupid and flawed. Why would we sign Hossa instead of Franzen? Why wouldn't we sign Hossa instead of another expendable player? You know... one who didn't have as big of an impact on the championship?

[GoWings1905 2,694]

The point isn't moot. We didn't have Hossa last year. We didn't need him to win. Especially if it involves removing one of the key elements of our latest championship. I'm not saying that Franzen is better than Hossa. I'm not going there at all. My point is that this whole argument is stupid and flawed. Why would we sign Hossa instead of Franzen? Why wouldn't we sign Hossa instead of another expendable player? You know... one who didn't have as big of an impact on the championship?

What expendable piece is going to clear enough cap space to keep Hossa realistically? Assuming Z re-signs, it's highly unlikely the Red Wings are keeping both Hossa and Franzen beyond this season.

Franzen did play a huge role in the championship, but he had never proven anything before last March. Hossa is a proven commodity in this league. If it comes down to keeping Hossa or Franzen, it's Hossa 100 times out of 100.

[jawbreaker 0]

People are silly. In February most of you were picking Flip and Hudler over Mule. Now you pick Mule over Hossa? Hossa is in the same category as Datsyuk, and Zetterberg. Hossa will score more points in a bad season, than Mule in a good season. Mule will demand around 5M, and Hossa 7M. Pretty easy choice if you ask me, 'cause with those extra 2M we are not signing important players (maybe Sammy). If Atlanta would have told, that Hossa for Mule and Sammy, then you have to be a moron not to pull the trigger.

[Guest LivingtheDream]

If we can keep Hossa and only lose Franzen, the choice is Hossa. Hossa is better offensively, better defensively, and while he may not be a big bruising forward, he's pretty strong and able to use it.

If it ultimately comes down to 'Hossa or Franzen' as the choice...anyone who doesn't choose Hossa is an idiot, a homer, or both.

Eva, you poseur. All this time you pretend to be analytical and yet here you are faced with an economic challenge and totally punt and lace your post with intimidating and unfounded fallacies. The cost of Hossa vs. Franzen factoring in production, contribution to the team effort... can't be such a slam dunk when one will cost twice as much as the other. Doesn't that wet your little stats geek whistle a little? Now don't just go and give us an easy salary to points ratio, any fool can divide. Let's see what you got.

Edited September 15, 2008 by LivingtheDream

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

We won the cup with Osgood playing lights out. Is he going to repeat and have a career year again?

That point is moot.

(Hossa was TIED with Hank for the most points in the playoffs btw)

We also won the Cup with us being fans. We've also lost a lot of Cups with us being fans.

*shrugs*

[eva unit zero 271]

No one is arguing with anyone about whether Hossa is a better player than Franzen. We're talking about what's the smartest thing to do as a GM.

The question was put out there as a 'you can keep the rest of the team together, but can only keep one of these two.'

That implies that all salary cap concerns are met; that the only reason we have to choose between the two is because we cannot fit both underneath the cap.

In such a situation...the smart thing for every GM that has ever existed to do is to take Hossa over Franzen.

If it were Hossa vs Franzen AND Hudler, or something like that, it wouldn't be as clear cut because more players are involved over a wider range of ages, and so you have to consider more factors. But Hossa is better now and will be better in the future than Franzen will ever be, and he's only a year older. If the decision is made as a one-for-one swap...there's no debate. Hossa will always be the better choice.

[Dabura 12,207]

My point is that this whole argument is stupid and flawed. Why would we sign Hossa instead of Franzen? Why wouldn't we sign Hossa instead of another expendable player?

Because an expendable player won't command the kind of money that Franzen probably will. Sure, Kenny could sacrifice Sammy, but that alone isn't going to free up enough cap room.

Realistically, Hank's probably going to have a great season, Hossa's probably going to have a breakout season, and Mule's probably going to have a pretty strong season (not amazing, but solid nonetheless). Hank will probably "take a hit" for the team when it comes time to re-negotiate; he's pretty much said as much, and, fair or not, it's expected of him by virtue of the way this franchise does business.

Hossa will need to be talked down a little. Before he was traded to the Pens, he said the one thing he cared about above all else was being part of a perennial contender, preferably the best one of the bunch. When he had the chance to prove it, he did, coming here for considerably less -- in terms of both money and job security -- than what several other teams were offering him. That says to me that at this stage in his career winning really is his top priority, and that money is, to a point, a secondary consideration. The guy's gotten a bad rap practically his entire career, and for no good reason. Now he has a chance to really showcase his talent and win it all. And not just this season, but, conceivably, for as long as he stays. I think the Wings will go all the way this season and he'll be content to hike his price down if it means sticking around and keeping the team around him as competitive as possible.

Mule can't keep up his pace. We saw him cool off as the Cup run wound down and I think that's where we'll find him this season: no longer a monster goal-scorer, but highly valuable as a more dynamic Homer, good for around 30 goals. He could be justified in asking for a pretty hefty sum come negotiation time, but I think he likes it enough here to come down if need be.

All in all, if this team performs as well as it's built to perform, Kenny really shouldn't have to play hardball with these guys.

[imisssergei 0]

Ok

Yeah, lets compare Hossa and Franzen and who we'd rather keep before the season even starts.....

Sorry for the "cop-out".

Yeah, it is a cop-out.

It's like answering "Who do you think will have more points this season, Crosby or Ovie? with "Well, let's wait and see how many games each guy plays before we start thinking about that."

Same thing.

It was a simple question, Hossa or Franzen. You chose to not choose.

Cop-out.

Politically correct.

Still a cop-out.

[Seraph 240]

If Mule has more points than Hossa at the end of the season I will give you whatever is in my bank account. I'll give you 1000000000 to 1 odds as well.

*edit* And as I've said before, the only people in the world that take Mule over Hossa is letsgowings.com

Dude, I don't think you're getting the point of the discussion at all.

[Seraph 240]

The question was put out there as a 'you can keep the rest of the team together, but can only keep one of these two.'

That implies that all salary cap concerns are met; that the only reason we have to choose between the two is because we cannot fit both underneath the cap.

In such a situation...the smart thing for every GM that has ever existed to do is to take Hossa over Franzen.

If it were Hossa vs Franzen AND Hudler, or something like that, it wouldn't be as clear cut because more players are involved over a wider range of ages, and so you have to consider more factors. But Hossa is better now and will be better in the future than Franzen will ever be, and he's only a year older. If the decision is made as a one-for-one swap...there's no debate. Hossa will always be the better choice.

I agree with you there. Though, the question is kind of dumb if you interpret it like that. You'd be better off asking, "who's the better player?" Also, to assume we could only fit one under the cap (with the rest of the team in tact) is to assume they're both taking the same amount of money. And we both know that will never be the case. Taking Franzen will always leave us more cap room that we can turn around and invest in cheaper talent. In the cap world it's all a matter of how much talent you can buy with the least money, and all we're saying is Franzen is good cuz he is talented, cheap, and will make more room.

So I guess all I'm saying is that I agree with all that you just said.

[jim3033 1]

What do you guys think Franzen will be worth? Holmstrom makes 2.25 and Cleary 2.5.

EDIT: this is interesting. Top paid players in NHL. 07-08 season.

http://www.sportsline.com/nhl/story/10400632

Edited September 15, 2008 by jim3033

[sergei_is_still_a_wing 1]

HA! the two biggest jokes on that list IMO are Vanek at TEN MILLION DOLLARS and Khabibulin at 6+.

wow. the sabers and hawks are taking it in the keester right there. not because they suck, but because they're worth half that.

as for hossa/mule: for the money keep mule. if the cap goes up and it only costs us a lesser player, keep em both. if hossa wants 8.5+, buh-bye. we do have have players that finish as well if not better than he does, but if we can squeeze him in and have 3 instead of 2, why not.

[eva unit zero 271]

HA! the two biggest jokes on that list IMO are Vanek at TEN MILLION DOLLARS and Khabibulin at 6+.

wow. the sabers and hawks are taking it in the keester right there. not because they suck, but because they're worth half that.

as for hossa/mule: for the money keep mule. if the cap goes up and it only costs us a lesser player, keep em both. if hossa wants 8.5+, buh-bye. we do have have players that finish as well if not better than he does, but if we can squeeze him in and have 3 instead of 2, why not.

Vanek's contract is front-loaded, and his cap number is just barely over 7 million. Given that he was arguably the Sabres' best player when he signed the deal, and two other Sabres forwards signed bigger deals the same summer (and have performed worse since) it's hard to call out Vanek as overpaid without calling out Drury and Briere. Vanek is also the only one of them who had yet to hit his prime, so a large contract for him was the most justifiable based on potential future gains.

Hossa has already proven he is not just out for the cash; He wants to win in a system that suits his talents.

[eva unit zero 271]

I agree with you there. Though, the question is kind of dumb if you interpret it like that. You'd be better off asking, "who's the better player?" Also, to assume we could only fit one under the cap (with the rest of the team in tact) is to assume they're both taking the same amount of money. And we both know that will never be the case. Taking Franzen will always leave us more cap room that we can turn around and invest in cheaper talent. In the cap world it's all a matter of how much talent you can buy with the least money, and all we're saying is Franzen is good cuz he is talented, cheap, and will make more room.

So I guess all I'm saying is that I agree with all that you just said.

I guess I interpreted it as a 'Holland has signed most of next year's roster and only has room enough to sign one of Hossa or Franzen. Who should he sign' type question rather than a 'Holland has a whole bunch of free agents and has to figure out who he can sign by deciding between Hossa and Franzen' because the second question implies that more players might be lost, and then it isn't just a Hossa v. Franzen question. The original question asked was a simple single player question, which fits more with the first interpretation. The OP said he hoped the Wings could keep all three of Z/Franzen/Hossa, but felt that it might come down to a decision between Franzen or Hossa, and asked for opinions on the choice between the two players. I've already stated I don't think it's likely that the Wings can keep Hossa under the cap with Z's contract, but if it comes down to that choice between Hossa and Franzen, the Wings keep Hossa 10 out of 10 times. No-brainer. It's like asking who do you keep from the 1995-96 Wings...Sergei Fedorov or Keith Primeau? One is a young power forward with plenty of skill who has shown signs of blossoming...the other is one of the best offensive players and two-way forwards in the world. They are about the same age. Who do you keep? Looking to Scotty Bowman for the answer, you keep the elite two-way forward; even if you have more of them. You don't give up elite two-way players for those that aren't if you don't have to.

[Guest mindfly]

Isn't ovechkin highest paid player this season?

[toby91_ca 620]

Isn't ovechkin highest paid player this season?

The previous list was kind of meaningless since it was salary and not cap hit. Ovechkin will definately be the highest cap hit this year, by quite a bit, but it's hard to say if he'll be the highest paid, he'll make $9 million this year, I haven't paid much attention to what everyone else's actual salaries will be this year, but I think Crosby will make $9 million as well and Heatley will make $10 million. Other that, I think there are a few at $8 million, but nothing more.

[toby91_ca 620]

Vanek's contract is front-loaded, and his cap number is just barely over 7 million. Given that he was arguably the Sabres' best player when he signed the deal, and two other Sabres forwards signed bigger deals the same summer (and have performed worse since) it's hard to call out Vanek as overpaid without calling out Drury and Briere. Vanek is also the only one of them who had yet to hit his prime, so a large contract for him was the most justifiable based on potential future gains.

Hossa has already proven he is not just out for the cash; He wants to win in a system that suits his talents.

I think Briere was their best player, you can say Vanek was arguablely their best player, but I don't think there should be an argument at all. Briere was the best in the regular season and post season and had a proven track record. Also, Briere's cap hit is only $6.5 million if I recall correctly, significantly lower than Vanek's (yes, I think $650k is significant). I also think Briere performed better last year than Vanek (not just because of points).

Now, as far as Drury goes, I thought he was extremely overpaid when he signed that contract, along with Gomez, it was absurd, so it's hard to point to that to justify Vanek's salary.

Fact is this, Edmonton offered Vanek a boatload of money as a RFA (I'm not misremembering am I? Correct me if I am wrong) and that's why Buffalo is paying him that much now. The guy is overpaid, no question about it.

[VM1138 1,921]

Franzen fits with the WIngs. I hope we don't have to get rid of any of them, but we'll see how realistic that is later this season.

I couldn't choose. I know Franzen would be the one they'd let loose, but his style of play is exactly what the Wings want and need. Plus, he's turned into a fan favorite.

[toby91_ca 620]

The thing is, it would never come down to a choice between Franzen and Hossa anyway, so it's almostly pointless to discuss. But, if we want to be hypothetical and assume that it could come down to that (meaning salaries would be the same), it should be no question, Hossa is your guy. I agree with the sentiment that you'd have to be an extreme homer or an idiot to think otherwise, but I won't use those words (i.e. I didn't say it, just agreed with it).

[Dawgs 0]

First off, Eva, those are some pretty harsh words. They remind me of what a preteen would say when he has no other argument. Uncalled for if you ask me.

Most of you guys that would keep Hossa, fail to see the big picture. The Red Wings have great players, but what really makes them the best of the best is balance. Its what makes them so hard to play against. They have highly skilled puck possession type players among the forwards, combined with gritty, hard nosed hockey players. You have a guy like Datsyuk who is a wizard with the puck, a guy like Homer who can barely skate but is the best net front man in the game. You have guys like Draper and Helm who can fly and guys like McCarty who wont win any races but will stick up for any teammate, anytime. You have big, powerful guys who use thier size to score like Franzen, and shifty, little guys like Hudler who do the same.

Franzen contributes mightily to this balance. Hes big and strong. He doesnt go looking for trouble but handles himself well in the scrums. He makes us tough to play against. Last year he scored 28 goals in 30 games. Im not sure if that was a fluke and thats why I said it depends on how his season goes in the original post. But if hes going to be a 30 goal scorer in this league, and I think he will easily surpass 30 on Zetterbergs line, Id prefer to keep him and his size.

Hossa scored 29 goals between Atlanta and Pittsburgh last season. He has 2-40 goal years and 4-30 goal years in his 9 years in the NHL. Hes a nice mix of scoring and defensive responsibility. Hes not going to win a ton of battles on 50-50 pucks behind the net though.

I love Hossas game, but Franzen brings something he never will and we desperately need.

[Copenhagen848 58]

Yeah, it is a cop-out.

It's like answering "Who do you think will have more points this season, Crosby or Ovie? with "Well, let's wait and see how many games each guy plays before we start thinking about that."

Same thing.

It was a simple question, Hossa or Franzen. You chose to not choose.

Cop-out.

Politically correct.

Still a cop-out.

The question was who would you rather keep, Mule or Franzen.

How can you make a choice on who you'd rather "keep" when the season hasn't even started yet?

Lets say Franzen has a terrible season and only scores like 15 goals, while Hossa leads the team in points or something. Not a tough choice there, obviously most people would want to keep Hossa even at a much higher salary.

But let's say both Franzen and Hossa score 30+ goals and are very close in points...then the choice on who to "keep" would be a little easier. Most people would probably say keep Franzen since he's producing about the same with a much smaller cap hit.

It's like picking between two new cars....most people want a test drive before they decide. Call it a "cop-out" all you want.

[Dawgs 0]

The thing is, it would never come down to a choice between Franzen and Hossa anyway, so it's almostly pointless to discuss. But, if we want to be hypothetical and assume that it could come down to that (meaning salaries would be the same), it should be no question, Hossa is your guy. I agree with the sentiment that you'd have to be an extreme homer or an idiot to think otherwise, but I won't use those words (i.e. I didn't say it, just agreed with it).

Why wouldnty it come down to that? If you keep one, you may not be able to afford the other and lose him to FA. That to me is coming down to one or the other.

[Shutemdown 23]

Franzen fits with the WIngs. I hope we don't have to get rid of any of them, but we'll see how realistic that is later this season.

I couldn't choose. I know Franzen would be the one they'd let loose, but his style of play is exactly what the Wings want and need. Plus, he's turned into a fan favorite.

Have we even seen Hossa skate with the Wings yet? Nope...

Yeah, in practice maybe, but let the man learn how the team operates and get used to his line-mates/team, and I'll BET he'd be a great fit on this team. He's already said he's loved our style of play since playing against us in the '08 SCF.

This is my run-down on everything... Hossa took less money to come here for one year. He didn't know if it'd even be worth it, but he did it. That shows that he believes in this team. He proved he's not about money right now, he's about winning. He's made nearly $6-7 every season for the past 5 seasons (maybe a little less, I didn't check any actual numbers), which would be plenty of money. He's already said it's not about money. He was also willing to take less money than Lids, so that rules out him asking for $8-9M next season, at least from Detroit.

Let's say hypothetically that we can sign Hossa for around $7.5, Hank for $7M, that would leave money left to try and re-sign Huds and Franzen (Sammy, IMO could be let go).

We have so much depth even in our farm team that I wouldn't worry about getting rid of "role-players" on the team... Helm and Ericsson are ready to go, and we could see Ville Leino. Also, these players from GR would probably sign smaller contracts, which could free up a little room under the cap (I'm saying if we were to trade, for instance, Sammy and Hudler, we could bring in Helm and Leino for smaller contracts and free up some space).

We could all just cross out fingers for Chelios to retire, too... there's an easy $725,000 right there.

With the cap possibly raising next year, there will be a couple options available.

Until then, we're all just going to have to relax and enjoy the show...

[b.shanafan14 733]

Like I said before, Hossa is a greater talent than Franzen right now, but as others are saying Hossa and Franzen "bang-for-your-buck" in the salary cap world are different.

Hossa signed for what in the free market is considered a "discount", making him tied for the highest paid player on the Wings, and thats after doing mediocre in Atlanta before going to Pitt and getting back into the groove. The cap has gone up roughly $6 mil a season since the lockout. Assuming that doesn't slow, which it very well may, the means we will have roughly $21mil to sign Zetterberg, Hossa, Franzen, Hudler, Samuelsson, Kopecky, possibly Chelios, possibly another goaltender, possibly Leino. Minus the guaranteed raise of Zetterberg to around $7.45mil if we're lucky, and Hossa staying the same, again if we're lucky, than we have roughly $6mil to resign Franzen, Hudler, Samuelsson and more, all looking for a raise above their current $1.2 mil, and thats not counting the other question marks. We can't cut up our team for a single player who made our already championship calibur team better.

Whether that makes me an "idiot" or a "homer" is free for interpretation I guess...

^ THIS ^

(sorry, it was buried on page 2, so it got skipped over )

[toby91_ca 620]

Why wouldnty it come down to that? If you keep one, you may not be able to afford the other and lose him to FA. That to me is coming down to one or the other.

I don't think getting rid of Franzen means you can keep Hossa, that's why.