Final Forward Spot: Skill or Muscle?

[Shutemdown 23]

Link:

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article.../809240415/1053

"Everyone talks about needing a fighter, but the best players get to play," Mike Babcock said. "I believe that Downey did a great job for us last year keeping the flies off. I like to have a guy like that. But he's got to make the team, just like everybody else."

It might be difficult for the Wings to turn away the speed of Helm or the puck-sense of Leino, because either one would make it easier to roll four lines by ensuring that every line is loaded with offensive potential.

"Do you get rid of a better player to have a one-dimensional player sit there? We've always had a difficult time letting a skill player go for an enforcer," general manager Ken Holland said. "We understand the importance of protecting our skill players, but I know how hard they are to find, too, and it's hard to get rid of a skill player to have somebody ride shotgun."

Holland pointed out that, in general, enforcers are becoming less and less a part of the game.

"One-dimensional players are getting eliminated from the game," he said. "There's so much parity in the league, every night is a playoff game. You can't carry a guy who sits for all but three minutes a night over 82 games."

Thoughts? Opinions?

Edited September 24, 2008 by Shutemdown

[superstarsingh 23]

Simply put, skill over muscle.

[Shaman 713]

Id prefer giving Lenio a chance then caring Mccarty or Downey for the what ifs of most nights and them not seeing more then 6 mins a night.

[ManLuv4Clears 7]

I don't have a doubt that having a legitmate enforcer last year contributed to the team's overall success. People will say Downey didn't play in the playoffs therefore he has no reason to make the roster. The regular season and the playoffs are two entirely different ball games. I have a feeling management is leaning towards a skilled forward, but it doesn't hurt to have someone there to stick up for your star players during the long grind. There are many factors that make a team successfull and scoring isn't the only one.

[ben_usmc 253]

I think we need Mac and Downey for certain teams, flames, Blues, Ducks, but I would keep them scratched most nights

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

We need a big, Canadian goon who has a history of dirty play and cheapshots. Preferably a guy who will score 2 points all season, but rack up 300 PIM's and break people's faces along the way.

Leave the scoring to the skilled players. If Hudler and Sammy want to play, they'll just have to wait for the playoffs or for an injury. Otherwise, they can learn how to fight.

I hope this answers the OP's question.

Edited September 24, 2008 by GMRwings1983

[Shaman 713]

I don't have a doubt that having a legitmate enforcer last year contributed to the team's overall success. People will say Downey didn't play in the playoffs therefore he has no reason to make the roster. The regular season and the playoffs are two entirely different ball games. I have a feeling management is leaning towards a skilled forward, but it doesn't hurt to have someone there to stick up for your star players during the long grind. There are many factors that make a team successfull and scoring isn't the only one.

Ok, here the problem with caring a 3 to 5 min a night enforcer...It means that players like Zetts and Dats need to eat more mins a game, there is more need for a 3/4 liners to be able to go out for 10 to 15 mins a game and eat mins so we can keep our best players rested for situations where we need them (im talking about having players who can go out for a lot of shifts when we are up 4-1 in the 3rd with 5 mins to go and who can be defensively responsible and be able to pressure when the opportunity presents itself) and Downey and Mac aren't those kind of players, and putting players like Zetts and Dats out in those situations increases the chances of injury or someone taking a run on them, not decreases them.

[GoWings1905 2,694]

If Kopecky is healthy, he should be playing over both Mac and/or Downey.

[Opie 308]

The problem I have with your big goon idea is that you are taking out 2 of the top 5 post season scorers on this team and saying wait for an injury or the post season. Well you can't expect them to all of the sudden in April be able to pick up and score goals. However if Downey or Mac were to do that, throw punches doesn't take chemistry with line mates or getting used to the pace of the game.

They just walk into the lockerroom one day, see their name on the roster and put on the foil!

[ManLuv4Clears 7]

Ok, here the problem with caring a 3 to 5 min a night enforcer...It means that players like Zetts and Dats need to eat more mins a game, there is more need for a 3/4 liners to be able to go out for 10 to 15 mins a game and eat mins so we can keep our best players rested for situations where we need them (im talking about having players who can go out for a lot of shifts when we are up 4-1 in the 3rd with 5 mins to go and who can be defensively responsible and be able to pressure when the opportunity presents itself) and Downey and Mac aren't those kind of players, and putting players like Zetts and Dats out in those situations increases the chances of injury or someone taking a run on them, not decreases them.

I agree with your opinion and logic, but players on the 4th line whether it's Downey or someone else rarely play more than 5-7 minutes a game. In a perfect world with no salary cap you could fill your roster with the type of players you describe, but in today's NHL you have to fill those 4th line spots with dependable character guys.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

The problem I have with your big goon idea is that you are taking out 2 of the top 5 post season scorers on this team and saying wait for an injury or the post season. Well you can't expect them to all of the sudden in April be able to pick up and score goals. However if Downey or Mac were to do that, throw punches doesn't take chemistry with line mates or getting used to the pace of the game.

They just walk into the lockerroom one day, see their name on the roster and put on the foil!

Fine, then we should remove Kopecky from the lineup instead of Hudler or Sammy. No one can make a valid argument for his usefullness on the roster. No feathers can be ruffled with that decision.

[Shaman 713]

I agree with your opinion and logic, but players on the 4th line whether it's Downey or someone else rarely play more than 5-7 minutes a game. In a perfect world with no salary cap you could fill your roster with the type of players you describe, but in today's NHL you have to fill those 4th line spots with dependable character guys.

in this case though we have Helm, Lenio, Kopecky, who could easily be on the fourth line, but up good minutes, and would lose a spot to downey or mac. I am not talking about night in night out games, but probably 1 in 3 games where you can just go into cruise control for the last 10 mins where you dont want to have to depend on your top 2 lines to hold a lead, but need defensively minded players to hold it together for you, and Downey and Mac take up spots those kind of players would have...

Edited September 24, 2008 by Shaman464

[Opie 308]

Fine, then we should remove Kopecky from the lineup instead of Hudler or Sammy. No one can make a valid argument for his usefullness on the roster. No feathers can be ruffled with that decision.

No complaints here, I also would have accepted Maltby or Helm. (Sarcasm, tried to make a game show type joke but it is neither funny nor really that easy to pick up)

Like I said the only issue I had was the numbers you were removing, replacing some one who is lucky to put up double digit points for a guy who will at least put on the foil, no loss in my opinion.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

No complaints here, I also would have accepted Maltby or Helm. (Sarcasm, tried to make a game show type joke but it is neither funny nor really that easy to pick up)

Like I said the only issue I had was the numbers you were removing, replacing some one who is lucky to put up double digit points for a guy who will at least put on the foil, no loss in my opinion.

If you're saying that enforcers should only be on the roster if they are one of the 12 leading scoring forwards on the team, then enforcers would practically become extinct around the entire league. Their job isn't to score, and their usefullness shouldn't be compared in terms of points. Do any of our 4th liners have as many fighting majors as Downey? No, they don't. It's all about needing the proper balance.

That's why I think it makes more sense for the Wings to dress enforcers than any other team, because we have so much skill up front, that we're not losing anything by taking away scorers off the 4th line, who aren't going to play many minutes anyway. Three scoring lines is more than what anyone else has, thus a 4th line with some gritty players and fighters isn't going to hurt anybody, except for the other team.

Edited September 24, 2008 by GMRwings1983

[ManLuv4Clears 7]

in this case though we have Helm, Lenio, Kopecky, who could easily be on the fourth line, but up good minutes, and would lose a spot to downey or mac. I am not talking about night in night out games, but probably 1 in 3 games where you can just go into cruise control for the last 10 mins where you dont want to have to depend on your top 2 lines to hold a lead, but need defensively minded players to hold it together for you, and Downey and Mac take up spots those kind of players would have...

Good point. I guess management will have to make the decision on whether they want Helm and Lenio taking up 4th line minutes with the big boys or getting 20+ down in GR. Time will tell. The powers that be put together a successful product thus far so I have no doubt they will continue to do so.

[ManLuv4Clears 7]

If you're saying that enforcers should only be on the roster if they are one of the 12 leading scoring forwards on the team, then enforcers would practically become extinct around the entire league. Their job isn't to score, and their usefullness shouldn't be compared in terms of points. Do any of our 4th liners have as many fighting majors as Downey? No, they don't. It's all about needing the proper balance.

That's why I think it makes more sense for the Wings to dress enforcers than any other team, because we have so much skill up front, that we're not losing anything by taking away scorers off the 4th line, who aren't going to play many minutes anyway. Three scoring lines is more than what anyone else has, thus a 4th line with some gritty players and fighters isn't going to hurt anybody, except for the other team.

Dennis Rodman couldn't hit a shot to save his life, but he was still an important part of the Pistons' success in the late 80's and early 90's. Old analogy and basketball I know but I'm trying to work at the same time as posting so my brain is not all here.

[Opie 308]

If you're saying that enforcers should only be on the roster if they are one of the 12 leading scoring forwards on the team, then enforcers would practically become extinct around the entire league. Their job isn't to score, and their usefullness shouldn't be compared in terms of points. Do any of our 4th liners have as many fighting majors as Downey? No, they don't. It's all about needing the proper balance.

That's why I think it makes more sense for the Wings to dress enforcers than any other team, because we have so much skill up front, that we're not losing anything by taking away scorers off the 4th line, who aren't going to play many minutes anyway. Three scoring lines is more than what anyone else has, thus a 4th line with some gritty players and fighters isn't going to hurt anybody, except for the other team.

I think my wording was confusing, I was basically saying the same thing, if Helm, Maltby, or Kopecky are going to be lucky to put up double digit points, why not have some one (Downey) in the line up that can protect the 20-30 point or more players.

I still think Downey is the perfect fighter for this team (my comments in the contrite thread were about the hit itself not his playing for the team) he very rarely takes a bad penalty, doesn't fight at the face off circle just because, he is an intelligent fighter, who has no problem with his role. Mac started taking bad penalties in the post season, that in my opinion were based on him not being in shape and not being able to get his legs where his body wanted to be. If he is in better shape this year and doesn't take a lot of penalties then I see the discussion about which of the two plays.

[Shaman 713]

I blame Gretzky for this...there use to be a time where a guy could score and kick ass, seems now we need a thug on skates to save us...

PS I also blame Sammy, Hudler, Downey, Corey Cross, Bert, Ken Holland at deadline time, and of course Bettman

Edited September 24, 2008 by Shaman464

[Reds4Life 51]

Skill of course.

We already have the World's greatest enforcer - Andreas "Pain Train" Lilja.

[12Newf 0]

We need a big, Canadian goon who has a history of dirty play and cheapshots. Preferably a guy who will score 2 points all season, but rack up 300 PIM's and break people's faces along the way.

Leave the scoring to the skilled players. If Hudler and Sammy want to play, they'll just have to wait for the playoffs or for an injury. Otherwise, they can learn how to fight.

I hope this answers the OP's question.

i know just the man for the job. we need jesse boulerice now! MAKE IT HAPPEN KENNY!

on a side note, i saw the scoresheet for his game last night and sure enough he had a fight and was thrown out of the game for a hit from behind.

[Aussie_Wing 354]

Leino sounds very promising and the Wings will have a very hard time cutting him loose IMO. He just sounds too skilled and too much of a Red Wings ‘kind of guy’ to cut. As for Helm, he is a beauty and an outstanding prospect, and we’re all aware of what he can do, but I think he’ll be sent down to GR and be given a ton of ice-time and be given a real leadership role. I see him as a potential captain down the road.

Downey, well I’ve never been big on him. Sure I like what he brings to the table but in the games that he did play last season he barely saw any ice time. We really could do without him, especially as McCarty is here now. But if I had the choice of one of Leino/Helm/McCarty/Downey, I’d go Leino. Only go against Helm because he will probably benefit more from a larger role in GR as opposed to the limited role he would surely get with Detroit. Although having said that, Filppula was meant to be in the same boat in 2006/07, and after 3 games in Grand Rapids enough was enough and he was called up for good and hasn’t looked back since. Helm might not be as good offensively, at least just yet, but he could make a similar impact to start the season.

[Dominator2005 558]

Wings have enough skill that a fourth line checker/fighter is the not the difference maker.

They are going to split Dats and Zetterberg - as far as I remember last season they played 23-24 min average. So, in my mind you can have a energy/hitting 4th line.

[eva unit zero 271]

Dennis Rodman couldn't hit a shot to save his life, but he was still an important part of the Pistons' success in the late 80's and early 90's. Old analogy and basketball I know but I'm trying to work at the same time as posting so my brain is not all here.

The difference between Rodman and an enforcer though?

Rodman, or more recently Ben Wallace, was a rebounding maniac. He would come down with the ball most of the time at either end of the court, which led to either stopping the opposition's attack or continuing his own team's possession. He also was a starter, and was the best in the league at what he did.

A good analogy for Rodman or Wallace in the NHL? Tomas Holmstrom. His actual offensive skills are mediocre, but his ability as far as causing net-front havoc and the ability to deflect pucks, corral rebounds and create chances from them, and other such crease-related activities? He is simply the best. One of, and possibly the best the game has ever seen with regard to that particular skill, although many other players who were great at that talent were not such one-dimensional players as Holmstrom. Phil Esposito, Dino Ciccarelli, Ray Sheppard, Ryan Smyth, and Dave Andreychuk are all good examples of players who were not as good as Homer in front of the net, but were famous for their abilities there; those players were all much better players than Holmstrom because they were all considerably more skilled in other areas. For example, Ciccarelli in his prime was a very quick skater. Sheppard is one of the best puckhandlers I have ever seen. Andreychuk had an extremely strong and accurate wrist shot. Esposito was a complete and well rounded player who used his size, strength, and hand-eye coordination to score goals in front of the net as well as from range. Homer, unfortunately for him, is a poor skater, average defensively (the worst defensive forward in the Wings' top 12), the accuracy of his wrist shot and his passes are average at best. What Homer does have? A bull's strength, good hockey sense, and excellent hand-eye coordination. He used these limited natural abilities and a strong work ethic effectively to become as valuable to his team as he can.

Just like Rodman and Wallace were not 'natural' stars but both were considered among the best players in the NBA at their position simply by working hard on what they could do well, and outworking the opponent during games. Homer is considered the best at what he does because he has worked hard at it so that he can do it well.

And enforcer like Downey, McCarty, or Laraque could never have the kind of impact on a hockey team that Rodman or Wallace had on the Pistons. An enforcer might be your Corliss Williamson or Lindsey Hunter...but that's it. More than likely the enforcer is your Darko Milicic. You know; the coach won't play him?

[T.Low 1,011]

Leino sounds very promising and the Wings will have a very hard time cutting him loose IMO. He just sounds too skilled and too much of a Red Wings ‘kind of guy’ to cut. As for Helm, he is a beauty and an outstanding prospect, and we’re all aware of what he can do, but I think he’ll be sent down to GR and be given a ton of ice-time and be given a real leadership role. I see him as a potential captain down the road.

Downey, well I’ve never been big on him. Sure I like what he brings to the table but in the games that he did play last season he barely saw any ice time. We really could do without him, especially as McCarty is here now. But if I had the choice of one of Leino/Helm/McCarty/Downey, I’d go Leino. Only go against Helm because he will probably benefit more from a larger role in GR as opposed to the limited role he would surely get with Detroit. Although having said that, Filppula was meant to be in the same boat in 2006/07, and after 3 games in Grand Rapids enough was enough and he was called up for good and hasn’t looked back since. Helm might not be as good offensively, at least just yet, but he could make a similar impact to start the season.

I see your avatar as a potential captain down the road. At the very least a first line playmaker with an "A".

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

If Downey and McCarty dont make the team, and Leino does, that injury to Lidstrom will be nothing compared to the cheap shots we'll be getting this year. An enforcer is needed on a defending Stanley Cup game.