Franzen or Hossa?

[egroen 384]

Maybe Hossa and Lidstrom will sit out for half the year?

[Casey 145]

I'll take Franzen and Hudler over Hossa/Samuelsson any day of the week.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Well, Hudler IS going to get offer sheets if he's not signed. In that case, Wings get picks.. and with the way Hudler's been playing, potentially several good picks. So, in one way, you're looking at Hossa and a 1st rounder (maybe more?) vs Franzen and Hudler (and maybe Sammy as well, if those two go relatively cheap, though I expect he's gonna get a pay raise somewhere with the numbers he's had.)

Another thing to look at, is, well, rare as guys like Franzen and Hudler are, big guns like Hossa come around even less often. And by keeping one big gun, you leave 1 extra roster space open. That can go one of two ways. Either you're already pushing the cap and you need to find extra cap space to fill that 1 roster spot, which works against keeping Hossa. Or you've enough extra cap room to wiggle around after signing Hossa, and then have an extra spot in which you can send up one of the young guns permanently (Helm, for example), an opportunity you might not have keeping both Hudler and Franzen.

Ultimately, there's still over half a season of hockey to play, not to mention the playoffs. That's a lot of time to see where these players positions on the team are going to further develop. Performance, especially in the playoffs, and the willingness of each of the respective parties here to take a pay cut are all going to be deciding factors, and I don't think there's any clear cut solution at the moment.

Nostalgia-wise, part of me wants to keep Franzen and Hudler because they're part of the 08 championship (also also quite fine players at the moment.) On the other hand, I also really like Hossa. Most importantly, though, I don't think we go wrong either way.. there will be some sadness at the loss of any of them, but a wealth of talent is one asskicking situation to be in (as opposed to, uh, whatever situation you call what some other teams are in)

So this is what you're envisioning?

Hossa (7.5) - Datsyuk (6.7) - Homer (2.25)

Hank (7.5) - Filppula (3) - Cleary (2.85)

Maltby (.88) - Helm (.6) - Leino (.9)

Kopecky (.6) - Draper (1.58) - Downey (.5)

Mac (.5)

Lidstrom (7.4) - Raffi (6)

Stuart (3.75) - Kronwall (3)

Lilja (1.2) - Lebda (.65)

Meech (.5)

Ozzie (1.4)

Howard (.75)

To: 60.01M

1) Our shaky goaltending just got shakier

2) Our depth just got more shallow

3) We're over the cap by about 5M - theres no way with this economy that the cap doesn't drop a bit.

Are people expecting Hank and Hossa to sign for a collective 10M or something? What am I missing that makes people think we can afford re-signing Hank AND Hossa?

[lets go pavel 2]

During the second intermission of the game versus the Hawks, Holland just said "I think we can keep two of them comfortably..." when speaking of Zetterberg, Hossa, and Franzen.

With Zetterberg being signed a foregone conclusion, the let debate begin. Hossa or Franzen?

Are we so sure that this is a foregone conclusion? I know he's the priority, but when Holland was talking specifically about the talks with Z he didn't sound like a whole lot of progress was being made. I don't think we can afford Z and Hossa together, so the "keep two of them" could very well be Franzen and either Z or Hossa ...

[b.shanafan14 733]

So this is what you're envisioning?

Hossa (7.5) - Datsyuk (6.7) - Homer (2.25)

Hank (7.5) - Filppula (3) - Cleary (2.85)

Maltby (.88) - Helm (.6) - Leino (.9)

Kopecky (.6) - Draper (1.58) - Downey (.5)

Mac (.5)

Lidstrom (7.4) - Raffi (6)

Stuart (3.75) - Kronwall (3)

Lilja (1.2) - Lebda (.65)

Meech (.5)

Ozzie (1.4)

Howard (.75)

To: 60.01M

1) Our shaky goaltending just got shakier

2) Our depth just got more shallow

3) We're over the cap by about 5M - theres no way with this economy that the cap doesn't drop a bit.

Are people expecting Hank and Hossa to sign for a collective 10M or something? What am I missing that makes people think we can afford re-signing Hank AND Hossa?

This. I think people forget that Hank is going to get a $5mil raise and that we are already right against the cap, which is expected to go down next season, and on top of that have 3 of our top 7 forwards to resign after that.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Are we so sure that this is a foregone conclusion? I know he's the priority, but when Holland was talking specifically about the talks with Z he didn't sound like a whole lot of progress was being made. I don't think we can afford Z and Hossa together, so the "keep two of them" could very well be Franzen and either Z or Hossa ...

The apprehension in his voice spelled out doom and gloom for the cap. Every NHL team in this league has a few capologists on staff, and they're all predicting a drop in the cap ceiling. Its going to be no different with Zetterberg than it is with Hossa - until the Wings and the NHL have a better handle on the cap projections, no team with big contracts to hand out and little cap space is going to be handing out anything.

[Guest Shoreline]

Hossa is a good player but people have placed their expectations way too high of a rental player if they place their bets on Hossa staying. If he does, pleasant surprise. If he does and KH manages to keep Franzen, Sammy, Z, and Hudler, then the Wings need to find a number for KH and retire it when he goes.

Edited December 31, 2008 by Shoreline

[YoungGuns1340 1]

This. I think people forget that Hank is going to get a $5mil raise and that we are already right against the cap, which is expected to go down next season, and on top of that have 3 of our top 7 forwards to resign after that.

Yup. Thats the short and long of it. Tack on 5M to Hanks salary AND our cap number and you basically have our potential cap number - 60+ M.

If you really want to get into the nitty gritty, not only do I think you have to let go off Hossa AND Sammy, but Holland might be well-advised to shop Filppula as well.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Hossa is a good player but people have placed their expectations way too high of a rental player if they place their bets on Hossa staying. If he does, pleasant surprise. If he does and KH manages to keep Franzen, Sammy, Z, and Hudler, then the Wings need to find a number for KH and retire it when he goes.

I do not envy Holland's job right now. This has to be his toughest season yet.

[egroen 384]

Frazen + Hudler = kick ass. No need for Hossa if we have these two kids.

I agree. I also think you look at getting a nice return for Filppula for some added flexibility.

[JayUp88 1]

Hossa and the GR kids. Sorry Fronz I think you're the shiznit but you can't say no to Hossa

[Barrie 900]

Nothing against Hossa, but I'm all for Franzen!

I hope we let Sammy walk. Helm and Leino should be with the Wings next year.

[Datsyerberger 279]

So this is what you're envisioning?

Hossa (7.5) - Datsyuk (6.7) - Homer (2.25)

Hank (7.5) - Filppula (3) - Cleary (2.85)

Maltby (.88) - Helm (.6) - Leino (.9)

Kopecky (.6) - Draper (1.58) - Downey (.5)

Mac (.5)

Lidstrom (7.4) - Raffi (6)

Stuart (3.75) - Kronwall (3)

Lilja (1.2) - Lebda (.65)

Meech (.5)

Ozzie (1.4)

Howard (.75)

To: 60.01M

1) Our shaky goaltending just got shakier

2) Our depth just got more shallow

3) We're over the cap by about 5M - theres no way with this economy that the cap doesn't drop a bit.

Are people expecting Hank and Hossa to sign for a collective 10M or something? What am I missing that makes people think we can afford re-signing Hank AND Hossa?

No, I'm envisioning something more like this:

Hudler (3.0) - Datsyuk (6.7) - Homer (2.25)

Franzen (3.5) - Zetterberg (7.5) - Leino (.9)

Helm (.6) - Filppula (3) - Cleary (2.85)

Maltby (.88) - Draper (1.58) - Kopecky (.6)

Downey OR Mac (.5)

(Note: Probably not those actual forward lines, though I think they could work. Maybe ZDH and Franzen-Hudler-Leino? Well, I'm posting this to discuss lines anyhow, so pardon if they suck)

Lidstrom (7.4) - Raffi (6)

Stuart (3.75) - Kronwall (3)

Lilja (1.2) - Lebda (.65)

Meech (.5)

Ozzie (1.4)

Howard (.75) -- Or Larsson? Though I think Howard will get a chance unless he absolutely stinks it up in GR.

That's 58.51, which is still likely over, unless the economy goes apes*** in the next 6 months. That was also undercutting what I think Hudler and Franzen could land if their current performance still continues. Take out Hudler or Filppula and throw in another GR guy and you're looking at more like 56, which seems.. well, more reasonable. So, more and more, Hudler or Flip looks to be out of the picture, depending on a balance of A: Who lands more picks, and B: Who's more likely to earn their keep.

Now, just for s***s and giggles, here's with Hossa

Hossa (7.5) - Datsyuk (6.7) - Homer (2.25)

Cleary (2.85) - Hank (7.5) - Leino (.9)

Maltby (.88) - Helm (.6) - Kopecky (.6)

Abdelkader? (.5?) - Draper (1.58) - Mac OR Downey (.5)

Prospect of the day/week/month (.5?)

Lidstrom (7.4) - Raffi (6)

Stuart (3.75) - Kronwall (3)

Lilja (1.2) - Lebda (.65)

Meech (.5)

Ozzie (1.4)

Howard (.75)

57.51. Not entirely unreasonable, if you don't mind looking a bit like Ottawa with better defensive pairings. The good of this? Keep a big name player, get rid of a possible underperformer (Filppula -- though like I said, TONS of hockey left to play, and I like Flip, soooo, benefit of the doubt there..), bring up some of the young guns in GR that deserve a chance.

The bad? Lots of question marks in the bottom 2 forward lines, and a 2nd line that could be either awesome (if Cleary plays like last season pre-injury, and if Leino lives up to expectations) or bust (if they.. uh, don't).

As of -right now- I prefer the Hudler + Franzen option, because of greater scoring depth for minimally less defense, + homebrew, etc, but there's still tons of hockey left, and a very shaky economy. Performance + available cap is going to be very, very hard to predict.

[Datsyerberger 279]

If you really want to get into the nitty gritty, not only do I think you have to let go off Hossa AND Sammy, but Holland might be well-advised to shop Filppula as well.

That was the conclusion I came to in my above reply to you as well, whether we keep Hossa or Franz + Hudler.

Edit: Sammy gone also seems an almost certainity for fitting under the cap, with a core of:

Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Holmstrom, Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall, Stuart, Lilja, Osgood, Hossa OR Hudler + Franzen, Cleary

All you can really fit after that for a 22 or 23 man roster is players in the .5-.8 range, leaning towards the former. And that's without Filppula

Edited December 31, 2008 by The Wheeled Winger

[Lovin Jiri Fischer 147]

Mule will be much cheaper than Hossa, and I think he has been just as good, if not better lately (notice I said lately and not all-time). He would also be good to fill Holmstrom's shoes when he retires.

[HOCKEY MATTERS 167]

we should be able to get Forsberg signed in the confusion of all this other stuff. get it done, kenny.

[Datsyerberger 279]

we should be able to get Forsberg signed in the confusion of all this other stuff. get it done, kenny.

Fo' sho', my brethren.

[sether 5]

I'd say long term the Wings would be better off with Franzen over Hossa. Franzen won't cost as much as Hossa and as others have said that will still leave room for Hudler, I also wouldn't be against shopping Flip to help the cap space for next year.

[Yzerman191 37]

Let me start of by saying Hossa is without a doubt a better player than Franzen, but I think we'd be wise to let Hossa go. Don't get me wrong; I love having the guy on the team. He's an absolute beast. He's one of the fastest players on the ice at all times, he's a big guy, he plays with passion, he's got great hands, plays defensively sound hockey, etc. However, you have to gauge what it would cost the Red Wings to keep him. It's a given that Franzen would be gone, and potentially Hudler, Sammy. Also, it would help to remove any possibility of the 'Wings picking up a gritty depth forward (such as Drake).

Another point that hasn't been touched on much is the style of play for all of these guys. We KNOW Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Holmstrom can play together at an elite level, often dominating any team we face. Datsyuk is a natural playmaker who can shoot, but he also takes Zetterberg and Hossa from merely being dominating defensive minded forwards to guys capable of producing 100+ points and 40+ goals. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that we only have one natural playmaker, Datsyuk, who really makes the other guy on his line worth his salary. Having both Hossa and Zetterberg isn't very efficient in terms of depth and being worth the cap hit. Add in the fact that Franzen has a natural knack for scoring goals, and Hudler is refining his talents as well.

For my final point, I'll look to last year. We won the Cup with nearly the same team as this year (plus Dom and Drake), but without Hossa. I guess I'd be inclined to resign Franzen, Hudler, and maybe Sammy (although I think he'll probably flee for a larger paycheck). It'd give us some flexibility to add a few depth forwards, bring up and send down players as needed, and have a little bit of space at the deadline if some minor tinkering is needed.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

I agree. I also think you look at getting a nice return for Filppula for some added flexibility.

The sooner you trade Flip, the better. A guy like Filppula has the potential to be very valuable to quite a few teams. And as of now, teams are likely going to look at Flip's numbers, then look at the Wings depth and figure he could be much more valuable to their team than he is to the Wings. And I think Detroit's reputation for developing players precedes them. In the past few years, teams who have landed the Wings young players have gotten great value. Think Matthias and Quincey.

[Z and D for the C 712]

Mule will be much cheaper than Hossa, and I think he has been just as good, if not better lately (notice I said lately and not all-time). He would also be good to fill Holmstrom's shoes when he retires.

How can you say Franzen will be much cheaper than Hossa but is just as good? It makes no sense.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

How can you say Franzen will be much cheaper than Hossa but is just as good? It makes no sense.

Are you playing around or did you seriously miss the part where he emphasized that he meant "lately"?

(notice I said lately and not all-time).

[redwing19 0]

My vote is for Franzen due to him being a wing from day one and also with the signing of Franzen we will keep Hudler who is my FAV. and we will be able to bring up the boys from G.R. Hossa is very good but like other people have said he is a rental player and you have to look at the long run for the wings. We have so much talent coming up to replace the Maltbys,Samms,Drapes,Chelios and possibly Lebda. Then the DRWs will have cap space again.

[TheOwl 77]

It would be stupid to sign Hossa and Zetterberg both for 7.5 million. Conklin could be our goalie for a few years. He's relatively young, relatively reliable, and cheap. Sign Conklin to a long-term deal, 1.5 mill a season or whatever, get rid of Osgood, and bring up a 500,000 a year back up from the minors.

Either way, Flippula is extremely expendable. And Holland better not screw up this Leino thing. Get him on the ice. He has extreme potential, and only a small window to sign him cheap before he goes back to Europe never to be seen again.

Edited December 31, 2008 by TheOwl

[MaynardJKeenan 1]

Holland didn't seem to convinced the he would get Hank signed. Maybe he is thinking what I am thinking, Hossa and Mule for the win. To me it's not between Mule and Hossa, it's between Z and Hossa. The Mule is a must.