Osgood Eyeing Sawchuk

[steveyzerman 0]

Good post and for the most part I agree, however there are some differences between Broduer and Osgood which will go against Osgood's favor. In addition to the three cups his team has won, Broduer has won the Vezina and the Jennings four times, and he's looking at breaking the all-time wins and all-time shutout record. Osgood's records are mostly franchise records, and those that he still has to get (although I think its safe to assume he'll retire with them). Broduer already owns just about every franchise record a goalie can get for the Devils, I think something along the lines of 30 records? Not to mention the ridiculous amount of unbelievable saves he has made to preserve his numbers. This guy has tons of highlight reel videos on youtube, compared to very few with Osgood. This also may seem like a redundant comparison, however it demonstrates a valid point that Brodeur is the more noticed goalie in the league, while Osgood flies under the radar with standard, not flashy but good-positioning saves. This may very well affect how people vote on his chances in the HOF. People also don't consider him a franchise player due to the fact that the Wings have had the likes of Hasek and Vernon and Joseph come through, and Osgood has played second tier through those times. Anyway, like I said earlier, it would be awesome if he gets in, but I think he's looking at an outside chance, if any.

& that's where point two comes in. I'm not saying he'd be the best goalie in the Hall of Fame, but like the salary cap, there has to be a floor & a ceiling. Even if he's the worst goalie in the HoF, he deserves to be in there.

[Datsyerberger 279]

& that's where point two comes in. I'm not saying he'd be the best goalie in the Hall of Fame, but like the salary cap, there has to be a floor & a ceiling. Even if he's the worst goalie in the HoF, he deserves to be in there.

He wouldn't be the worst goalie in the HOF, not by a long shot.

[steveyzerman 0]

He wouldn't be the worst goalie in the HOF, not by a long shot.

Point made. Just putting my feet in the shoes of the people who think he would be.

Edited January 12, 2009 by steveyzerman

[Datsyerberger 279]

If you look back at HHOF history, there seems to be on average 5 goaltenders per era that get inducted, except the mid 80s-early 90s, of which Grant Fuhr and Billy Smith are the only survivors.

"Dead Puck" era inductees. (Will likely have a handful, due to the rising skill level of 'tenders)

1. Roy

2. Hasek

3. Brodeur

4. Belfour

5. Osgood

6. Cujo

5/6 of those are or will be top 10 wins all time. Belfour currently stands at 3rd, Cujo at 4th, and Osgood has the potential to finish his career at 5th. Osgood has been statistically better than both of them.

Belfour and Roy "partially" belong to the late 80s/early 90s era, so you could make a case that's 4 for that era, 4 for the "dead puck" era.. but you get my drift.

Edited January 12, 2009 by Datsyerberger

[AtomicPunk 296]

That might be why Osgood is considered a project of the system, If you think about all those 40-50 save games CuJo had with the Leafs, it's because their defense sucked. And their offense didn't control the puck like the Wings do.

Osgood doesn't have those 40 save games because the team plays well and controls the puck.

Not saying he IS... but this might be why people say that about him.

[Datsyerberger 279]

That might be why Osgood is considered a project of the system, If you think about all those 40-50 save games CuJo had with the Leafs, it's because their defense sucked. And their offense didn't control the puck like the Wings do.

Osgood doesn't have those 40 save games because the team plays well and controls the puck.

Not saying he IS... but this might be why people say that about him.

And yet those people won't say the same thing about Brodeur, who, as I pointed out above, had similar (a little better) stats on an even more defensive minded team than Detroit.

For the love of god, I'm not arguing against Brodeur here.. just the idiocy in applying those arguments to Ozzie.

[Grim 5]

the only thing Ozzie should be eyeing is the puck. He could just as easily lose his playoffs starts to Conklin *if* he hasn't already. Individual records and the HHOF should be an afterthought.

[LeftWinger 5,153]

...ok for all you with the "Anyone can look good behind that team" excuses, I give you two words: Tim Cheveldae.

Chevy and Ozzie played together during the 1993-1994 campaign. Lets compare:

Chris Osgood - 2.86 GAA 23-8-5 0.895 sv.%

Tim Cheveldae - 3.47 GAA 16-9-1 0.875 sv.%

...ya, ya, I know, Chevy ended up sucking, but if the Wings can make ANYONE a star, why did Chevy lose his job to a rookie? Even after Chevy was traded to Winnipeg for Essensa, Osgood was the better of the two. He Took jobs that year from Chevy, Ing, Essensa AND Vincent (I Took A Dive) Riendeau. Three of those were starters in the NHL, but the mighty Red Wings couldn't do anything for their careers, so why are they so responsible for Ozzies?

..even in 1995, he had better numbers than Mike Vernon, as well as 1995-1996 and 96-97. So, with Vernon being the GREAT goalie that he was, how come he didn't have better numbers than Osgood all those years? Osgood was the better goalie throughout the seasons, and he proved just how good he was in 1998. Can you tell me, with a straight face, Essensa, Cheveldae or Riendeau would have won that Cup in 1998? ...not...

[HenryMalredo 2]

I know many people on these boards would love to see it happen, but Chris Osgood is not going to go into the HHOF. The major reason is that outside of the Red Wings fanbase, he is considered a pretty average goaltender. Read most pre-season reviews of the Red Wings, and goaltending has always been considered Detroit's main weakness since Osgood has been on the team. And while its nice that Osgood was starter during two Stanley Cup runs and warmed the bench for another one, that really won't help him much. Glenn Anderson took a long time to get into the Hall and Claude Lemieux will most likely never get in, even though their both two of the greatest players ever in the postseason. Another point against Osgood is that he has rarely been able to establish himself as the permanent starter for the Wings. Brodeur and Roy were generally always the established starters for their teams. Osgood has often lost his starting job, or been forced to split time due to inconsistency. While it be nice to have Osgood in the hall, it honestly isn't gonna happen.

[Echolalia 2,961]

Nobody notices Osgood -- which is why the "Oooosssssgoooood" chant is possibly the most widespread chant in the league.

I think that started back in the playoffs when Osgood let in a center ice goal, but I may be wrong. The Wings are the most hated team in the league so when something like that begins, its here to stay. I was also referring to Osgood's style of play vs more flashy goalies such as Luongo, Nabakov, etc, not how Chicago and St. Louis' fans' express their inferiority complex

And for Leftwinger: I'm not saying Osgood is bad by any means. He has earned quite a number of awards and trophies. I'm just saying that I don't think he will be inducted into the hall of fame, for a number of reasons I already mentioned.

[thedisappearer 291]

3) He's the product of a great team

I'll use the previous three goalies for this. You know, the guaranteed Hall of Fame goalies. Apparently, no one remembers how good the New Jersey devils were with Scott Stevens. News flash, the New Jersey Devils haven't been back since their team fell apart. Obviously, Brodeur, as good as he is, can't steal a whole season. Roy played on a great team when all of the players were in their prime. The Red Wings have lost everything that people said were keeping us at the top. Yet, here's Osgood, backstopping us to a fourth Stanley Cup in eleven years.

Here you prove my point. NJ's system has been to rely on goaltending, play lots of defense, and maybe get a few goals. If Ozzie is our Brodeur, and Lids is our Stevens... who is our Fedorov? Shanny? [insert future or current Hall of Famer here]? Oh, they didn't have them? I guess they had a freaking good goalie.

Ozzie and Brodeur's number's are the same, but one played in a system that was goalie first, and the other where it was goalie afterthought.

Sorry. I love Ozzie. But he's not a HoFer.

[Datsyerberger 279]

I know many people on these boards would love to see it happen, but Chris Osgood is not going to go into the HHOF. The major reason is that outside of the Red Wings fanbase, he is considered a pretty average goaltender. Read most pre-season reviews of the Red Wings, and goaltending has always been considered Detroit's main weakness since Osgood has been on the team. And while its nice that Osgood was starter during two Stanley Cup runs and warmed the bench for another one, that really won't help him much. Glenn Anderson took a long time to get into the Hall and Claude Lemieux will most likely never get in, even though their both two of the greatest players ever in the postseason. Another point against Osgood is that he has rarely been able to establish himself as the permanent starter for the Wings. Brodeur and Roy were generally always the established starters for their teams. Osgood has often lost his starting job, or been forced to split time due to inconsistency. While it be nice to have Osgood in the hall, it honestly isn't gonna happen.

Which is funny, when you look at Osgood's performance and stats in those playoffs, where he makes clutch saves and comes out with SV %s like .930 and .925 and sub 2.00 GAAs.

[Outsider 42]

the only thing Ozzie should be eyeing is the puck. He could just as easily lose his playoffs starts to Conklin *if* he hasn't already. Individual records and the HHOF should be an afterthought.

Hey dude.....not right to Bogart that thing....

Pass, man. Pass.

[mjlegend 155]

By the time Osgood came into the nhl, Grant Fuhr had already played 12 seasons and was well past his prime, especially if you consider his bout with drugs and injuries, particularly a considerably debilitating injury that involved messing up his knee in 1996 (only a couple years after Osgood debuted in the nhl, and while Osgood was on a much better nhl team), therefore its unfair to compare the two while they were in the nhl together. Grant Fuhr also played his prime during the 'scoring era' of hockey, when it was common to have high goals against because teams would regularly score 5-6 goals per game. Wayne Gretzky himself has said Grant Fuhr is one of the greatest goaltenders in history, but if comparing a great goalie when hes injured, past his prime and suffering from drug abuse to a young, solid, goalie playing for a great team is enough for you to believe that Osgood deserves to be in the HOF, thats fine. But I disagree. Oh, and Fuhr has won five cups (only not starting in one due to injury), and played in five All Star games, won a Vezina, and scored second for the Hart Trophy behind only Mario Lemieux (he was ahead of Gretzky in votes that year). Of course all of this was while he played for Edmonton's dynasty, so I even question whether Fuhr should be in the hall of fame, and I personally think that race had a lot with him getting in.

If we're playing that game, then Fuhr getting into the All-Star game was easier for him in an 11-team conference in the original 21 days than Osgood in a 13-15 team conference for the last 10-12 years.

I personally had problems with Fuhr getting in simply because it was so freaking easy to win the cup when you have the best offense in NHL history in front of you in case you screw up. He also lost two post-Oilers NHL starting jobs before getting injured (in a year that he played 79 regular season games in). Really, everything after 1990 doesn't look good on Fuhr's resume, so you're basically left with so-so numbers after a six-year period of being very good on a killer team.

[Echolalia 2,961]

If we're playing that game, then Fuhr getting into the All-Star game was easier for him in an 11-team conference in the original 21 days than Osgood in a 13-15 team conference for the last 10-12 years.

I personally had problems with Fuhr getting in simply because it was so freaking easy to win the cup when you have the best offense in NHL history in front of you in case you screw up. He also lost two post-Oilers NHL starting jobs before getting injured (in a year that he played 79 regular season games in). Really, everything after 1990 doesn't look good on Fuhr's resume, so you're basically left with so-so numbers after a six-year period of being very good on a killer team.

You may have seen that I also question whether Fuhr should be in the hall of fame, and think that race had a lot to do with him getting there, but you emphasized the point I was trying to make to Eva, when he was trying to justify Osgood's being in the hall of fame by comparing his stats with Fuhr's when they were both in the nhl (post 1994ish). Fuhr's numbers were bad at that time.

Edited January 13, 2009 by Echolalia

[Never_Retire_Steve 35]

OK, I'll give my personal insight into this subject even though it will probably be useless as everyone is pretty stubborn with their opinions regarding Ozzie.

I used to hate Osgood with a passion in the nineties with all the center ice and ultimely goals that he would let in. It was so frustrating to see him let in bad goals on teams that had such promise.

Having said that, he is probably one of the most underrated goalies of all-time, and his performance in the playoffs last year was amazing and I became an instant fan of Chris Osgood for about 200 days. Now he is looking like a backup goalie once again.

In my mind there is no way that he should ever be hanging from the rafters. To me those should be reserved to guys who are the face of the franchise. To me I am happy that Detroit has been very selective with who's number gets retired. A guy like Lidstrom is almost on the cusp of not getting his number retired (I know that sounds crazy as he is probably one of the greatest defensemen of all-time) but playing with a guy like Steve Yzerman really puts you in a backseat in terms of being a franchise player.

[mjlegend 155]

I don't think race had anything to do with Fuhr getting into the HoF, unless the league is biased towards "Northern Albertans".

If it does, Peace River's Chris Osgood should have it made.

[eva unit zero 271]

If we're playing that game, then Fuhr getting into the All-Star game was easier for him in an 11-team conference in the original 21 days than Osgood in a 13-15 team conference for the last 10-12 years.

I personally had problems with Fuhr getting in simply because it was so freaking easy to win the cup when you have the best offense in NHL history in front of you in case you screw up. He also lost two post-Oilers NHL starting jobs before getting injured (in a year that he played 79 regular season games in). Really, everything after 1990 doesn't look good on Fuhr's resume, so you're basically left with so-so numbers after a six-year period of being very good on a killer team.

Fuhr also retired before they instituted the rule where the All-Star team was REQUIRED to have a representative from every team; they always tried hard to do so in the past, but only in the past few years has it actually been a rule. Fuhr was voted by fans to start the All-Star game three times (1986, 1988, and 1989) and played with teammate Andy Moog in the two before that as fan voting began in 1986.

[eva unit zero 271]

You may have seen that I also question whether Fuhr should be in the hall of fame, and think that race had a lot to do with him getting there, but you emphasized the point I was trying to make to Eva, when he was trying to justify Osgood's being in the hall of fame by comparing his stats with Fuhr's when they were both in the nhl (post 1994ish). Fuhr's numbers were bad at that time.

Take a look at the categories of bad stats I picked, such as save percentage below .900 or GAA above 2.70. By only using the time they played in the league together for Fuhr, I cut off MANY years Fuhr posted those kinds of stats. But I used Osgood's entire career, if you will take another look at my post. The thing is, Osgood simply didn't put up numbers that were bad enough to fall into those categories. Sorry to disappoint you. If you want, you can simply compare Osgood's career stats to Fuhr's, and notice that Osgood's stats are more "better than" Fuhr's than Brodeur's are "better than" Osgood's.

Ozzie is, and has been, a great goalie. No, he's not the best ever. But he's HHOF caliber, and should be in there when he retires.

[Never_Retire_Steve 35]

We should have a discussion about the standards of getting into the Hall of Fame.

To me I think it is too easy to get in and wouldn't have Osgood in there. I also would not have guys like Fuhr or Andersson in there either. So, for precedent he should get in based on his numbers when you compare him to other goalies.

[scotzman 29]

5 GA a game should get him in the HHOF very soon... just kidding.

Ozzie played well tonight. The team left him hangin'...

[Never_Retire_Steve 35]

He's not a guy who wins you games when you need him (exception Apr - Jun 2008)

[eva unit zero 271]

We should have a discussion about the standards of getting into the Hall of Fame.

To me I think it is too easy to get in and wouldn't have Osgood in there. I also would not have guys like Fuhr or Andersson in there either. So, for precedent he should get in based on his numbers when you compare him to other goalies.

I wouldn't have a lot of guys in there who are in. Osgood would probably be on the cusp or in; he's won some awards and some Cups and has won a lot of games without really having any bad seasons in his career; a lot of other goalies with similar win numbers have had some terrible seasons, or took forever to get them.

Every year up to four players can be inducted into the Hall. Assuming that players are inducted based on the proportion of positions, that means two goaltenders for every three years. If the average regular NHL goalie's career is nine years long, that means six of the regular NHL goalies would make it into the Hall for a given nine year period.

[egroen 384]

Fuhr also retired before they instituted the rule where the All-Star team was REQUIRED to have a representative from every team; they always tried hard to do so in the past, but only in the past few years has it actually been a rule. Fuhr was voted by fans to start the All-Star game three times (1986, 1988, and 1989) and played with teammate Andy Moog in the two before that as fan voting began in 1986.

It's still not a "rule", though they do it every year now.

A guy like Lidstrom is almost on the cusp of not getting his number retired (I know that sounds crazy as he is probably one of the greatest defensemen of all-time) but playing with a guy like Steve Yzerman really puts you in a backseat in terms of being a franchise player.

You have nothing to base this on. Word from Ansar Khan (from Jimmy D.) is Lidstrom's number will be retired the second they get the opportunity. He may not be the franchise player Yzerman was, but he was a better hockey player and has spent his entire career with the Wings.

Edited January 13, 2009 by egroen

[steveyzerman 0]

Here you prove my point. NJ's system has been to rely on goaltending, play lots of defense, and maybe get a few goals. If Ozzie is our Brodeur, and Lids is our Stevens... who is our Fedorov? Shanny? [insert future or current Hall of Famer here]? Oh, they didn't have them? I guess they had a freaking good goalie.

Ozzie and Brodeur's number's are the same, but one played in a system that was goalie first, and the other where it was goalie afterthought.

Sorry. I love Ozzie. But he's not a HoFer.

Steve Thomas, Bill Guerin, Petr Sykora, Brian Rolston, Scott Niedermayer. Oh & Shanny who actually played for the Devils before us. They all ended up being pretty good players. It's not Osgood's fault they were more defensive minded.