Guest E_S_A_D Report post Posted January 18, 2009 Okay, we all clearly know that I'm a strong advocate for an Enforcer in the game of hockey, or AT MINIMUM a gritty fourth line. Not Kirk Maltby Gritty, but someone that actually can slam someone out of the way of the goalie's net if needed without turtling afterwards. Last night was obvious that the Sharks had a clear agenda to out muscle Detroit and it clearly got in their heads. They lost Franzen to an injury, were embarressed in scrums, and let the other team's fourth line dominate. As a hockey fan, if I weren't a die hard Wings fan, I'd watch last night's game and see two teams- Men vs. Boys. I don't think we need a 'goon', I'm not a proponent of that. NHL 'tough guys' are no longer goons, they're the top skaters/ passers/ and defensive minded enforcers out of hundreds of minor league teams. I think it's time for Babcock, mainly Holland, to toss away some loyalty and dismantle the 4th line completely. Yes, they'll give you a few point game here and there, but we need a line like- Abdelkader-Helm- Downey... That's it... until then, watch our forwards drop like flies to physical play. Hope you're back soon Franzen. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VM1138 1,921 Report post Posted January 18, 2009 Meh, I saw the Wings fight back hard. Didn't ;look to me like they were being out-forced. San Jose was just better at positioning than we were. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest E_S_A_D Report post Posted January 18, 2009 Meh, I saw the Wings fight back hard. Didn't ;look to me like they were being out-forced. San Jose was just better at positioning than we were. lol, it's called size/ weight strength, that'll help with positioning. lol Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cnot19 191 Report post Posted January 18, 2009 Id say it is time for a better fourth line. The only one that was physical from the 4th last night was Kopecky Downey has a cheap enough contract where it could work. All the fourth liners make more than the 3 you mentioned and Mac. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lets go pavel 2 Report post Posted January 18, 2009 lol, it's called size/ weight strength, that'll help with positioning. lol What you're talking about isn't an enforcer at all, you just want a few bigger guys. I don't have a problem with that, I think most will agree that our 4th line could stand for an upgrade, but right now we're up against the cap so that will have to wait. As for last night, I think our guys held their own just fine. Those 2 breakaways are what ultimately killed us, not the physical play. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest DetroitBoy313 Report post Posted January 18, 2009 I don't know what game you guys were watching but I saw two things.Lebda's stupid ass play to push the net out of place when he obviously didn't have to which resulting in a pp goal by the Sharks.And a CLEAR offsides that should have been called but it wasn't.It was a game of inches last night.They didn't dominate us and we didn't dominate them.We scored 5 goals in their building and lost by ONE goal.You guys need to chill out,I wouldn't put too much into this game. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dat's sick 1,002 Report post Posted January 18, 2009 The 4th line needs change, but I'll never understand the obsession so many north-americans have with fights and enforcers. If you think guys like Homer, Franzen, Lebda, Stuart, Lilja, Sammy, and even Hank, Pav and Hossa can't defend themselves you're wrong. They just know that you don't win many games by sitting in the penalty box. The Wings don't need enforcers to take the other team's energy away, we do it by our play on the ice, by getting on the PP and scoring etc. I wonder if we saw the same game last night, because I didn't see a men vs. boys game at all. San Jose is a slightly bigger team than ours and played physical, but I didn't see our guys folding. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
redwingfan19 293 Report post Posted January 18, 2009 our powerplay is our enforcer man Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GMRwings1983 8,804 Report post Posted January 18, 2009 The 4th line needs change, but I'll never understand the obsession so many north-americans have with fights and enforcers. If you think guys like Homer, Franzen, Lebda, Stuart, Lilja, Sammy, and even Hank, Pav and Hossa can't defend themselves you're wrong. They just know that you don't win many games by sitting in the penalty box. The Wings don't need enforcers to take the other team's energy away, we do it by our play on the ice, by getting on the PP and scoring etc. I wonder if we saw the same game last night, because I didn't see a men vs. boys game at all. San Jose is a slightly bigger team than ours and played physical, but I didn't see our guys folding. Take Lilja's name out of that sentence, and the rest of it is pure nonsense. The Sharks are a bigger and hungrier team than the Wings right now. That's why it's so hard to repeat as champs, because the hunger is no longer there the same way it was before. ANd when have you seen any of those other guys you mentioned fighting back? Bring up Downey and sit Kopecky. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Datsyerberger 279 Report post Posted January 18, 2009 I don't see any need for an enforcer. I don't recall any Wing getting absolutely dominated in any of those scrums (though I do remember Raffi on top of someone). What I -do- see the need for is a frequent hitting, grinding, defensively responsible energy player on the 3rd/4th line. You know, the kind of player we all wish Kopecky would be. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
redwingfan19 293 Report post Posted January 18, 2009 I don't see any need for an enforcer. I don't recall any Wing getting absolutely dominated in any of those scrums (though I do remember Raffi on top of someone). What I -do- see the need for is a frequent hitting, grinding, defensively responsible energy player on the 3rd/4th line. You know, the kind of player we all wish Kopecky would be. agreed. helm, abdelkader should replace maltby and kopecky. would mind seeing downey getting a few games as well Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GMRwings1983 8,804 Report post Posted January 18, 2009 I don't see any need for an enforcer. I don't recall any Wing getting absolutely dominated in any of those scrums (though I do remember Raffi on top of someone). What I -do- see the need for is a frequent hitting, grinding, defensively responsible energy player on the 3rd/4th line. You know, the kind of player we all wish Kopecky would be. Players play with more grit when there's an enforcer in the lineup. You know, kind of like they did last year. It's harder to play a grittier game when you know that no one has your back in scrums or fights. That's why every other team has an enforcer and we don't. The argument that we can't give up a valuable roster spot to an enforcer is obsolete. Our 4th line is no longer valuable. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dat's sick 1,002 Report post Posted January 18, 2009 (edited) Take Lilja's name out of that sentence, and the rest of it is pure nonsense. The Sharks are a bigger and hungrier team than the Wings right now. That's why it's so hard to repeat as champs, because the hunger is no longer there the same way it was before. ANd when have you seen any of those other guys you mentioned fighting back? Bring up Downey and sit Kopecky. I've definitely seen Homer and Franzen fighting back. But the point is, the other teams WANT those guys I mentioned to fight back. Because then they'll end up in the box and can't do any damage. The Wings know this and mostly keep cool, get on the PP, score and win the games. Having enforcers like McCarty in the lineup has more negative effects (PK's) than it has positives. EDITED Edited January 18, 2009 by dat's sick Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akustyk 84 Report post Posted January 18, 2009 what hunger are we talking about in the middle of January, huh? just stop this nonsense please Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Heroes of Hockeytown 694 Report post Posted January 18, 2009 The Broken Record is back, Wings must have lost last night. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
esteef 2,679 Report post Posted January 18, 2009 (edited) I've definitely seen Homer and Franzen fighting back. But the point is, the other teams WANT those guys I mentioned to fight back. Because then they'll end up in the box and can't do any damage. The Wings know this and mostly keep cool, get on the PP, score and win the games. Having enforcers like McCarthy in the lineup has more negative effects (PK's) than it has positives. Zetterberg and Lidstrom would beg to differ with you, and have done so on camera. And who the hell is McCarthy? esteef Edited January 18, 2009 by esteef Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA Report post Posted January 18, 2009 This thread would not exsist if we won last night, a feat we almost acomplished despite a horrible defensive showing. The Sharks had a lot to prove and were geared, we looked flat in the first, yet still pushed them to their limits. Come playoff team, its us and them as the teams to beat, until than, I am not worrying. YOU CANNOT WIN 82 STRAIGHT PEOPLE. Okay, we all clearly know that I'm a strong advocate for an Enforcer in the game of hockey, or AT MINIMUM a gritty fourth line. Not Kirk Maltby Gritty, but someone that actually can slam someone out of the way of the goalie's net if needed without turtling afterwards. Last night was obvious that the Sharks had a clear agenda to out muscle Detroit and it clearly got in their heads. They lost Franzen to an injury, were embarressed in scrums, and let the other team's fourth line dominate. As a hockey fan, if I weren't a die hard Wings fan, I'd watch last night's game and see two teams- Men vs. Boys. I don't think we need a 'goon', I'm not a proponent of that. NHL 'tough guys' are no longer goons, they're the top skaters/ passers/ and defensive minded enforcers out of hundreds of minor league teams. I think it's time for Babcock, mainly Holland, to toss away some loyalty and dismantle the 4th line completely. Yes, they'll give you a few point game here and there, but we need a line like- Abdelkader-Helm- Downey... That's it... until then, watch our forwards drop like flies to physical play. Hope you're back soon Franzen. How exactly would an enforcer help this? Listen, I love fighting, and if we can get an enforcer who can play the game im all for that, but I really doubt that a professional hockey players mind is consumed with fears about the god of death known as arron downey. Downey can't prevent injuries by pure intimidation, agitators will still cheapshot our players, Thornton will still out muscle us in the corners, sorry but Downey will not magically make the sharks shrink 3 inchs and 15 plds. These people are professionals and have seen much worse enforcers than Downey, to think that one man who can max fight maybe 2 people a game (If he complelty destroys one and isnt tired from it) will change the whole landscape of a team on team matchup is ludicrous. Now before you bring out articles saying how much the players appreciate Downey's presence, Ill save you the trouble.... These people are part of a team, wtf do you want them to say "DOWNEY SUCKS, WE SHOULD BRING UP HELM, HE DOSENT SAVE US FROM BEIN INJURED AT ALL". Now that dosent seem right now does it? Listen I know the players appreciate Downey, as Do I, but to think hes the magical hockey jesus who will save this "crumbling season", is retarted. Besides that your arguemnt points more toward are 4th line lack of size and skill, rather than a need of an enforcer Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thedisappearer 291 Report post Posted January 18, 2009 ZOMG OHNOEZ!!!!! Would an enforcer have stopped those two break aways? No? Then an enforcer wouldn't have won the game for us last night. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
esteef 2,679 Report post Posted January 18, 2009 How exactly would an enforcer help this? Listen, I love fighting, and if we can get an enforcer who can play the game im all for that, but I really doubt that a professional hockey players mind is consumed with fears about the god of death known as arron downey. Downey can't prevent injuries by pure intimidation, agitators will still cheapshot our players, Thornton will still out muscle us in the corners, sorry but Downey will not magically make the sharks shrink 3 inchs and 15 plds. These people are professionals and have seen much worse enforcers than Downey, to think that one man who can max fight maybe 2 people a game (If he complelty destroys one and isnt tired from it) will change the whole landscape of a team on team matchup is ludicrous. Now before you bring out articles saying how much the players appreciate Downey's presence, Ill save you the trouble.... These people are part of a team, wtf do you want them to say "DOWNEY SUCKS, WE SHOULD BRING UP HELM, HE DOSENT SAVE US FROM BEIN INJURED AT ALL". Now that dosent seem right now does it? Listen I know the players appreciate Downey, as Do I, but to think hes the magical hockey jesus who will save this "crumbling season", is retarted. Besides that your arguemnt points more toward are 4th line lack of size and skill, rather than a need of an enforcer Talk about regurgitating the same old crap, nobody said players are consumed with fear over Downey, nobody said he's gonna stop injuries, and nobody said he's the magical hockey jesus (straw man anyone? Shoreline? ) All they're saying is having a player such as Downey matches the intensity that the Sharks had last night. Kronner gettin' steamrolled and Frazen gettin' smacked at the buzzer were just two examples of the Sharks letting the Wings know they're going to push them around. The Wings did respond to some degree but nothing like when Downey is in the lineup (see last year). And since our fourth line is currently struggling, what the hell are we waiting for? And yeah, players giving accolades to Downey during interviews is all just lip service right? Whatever man.... esteef Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueMonk 102 Report post Posted January 18, 2009 I'm as big a proponent of fighting and the role it plays in hockey as anyone, but even I didn't take away from last night's game that the difference was Detroit's failure to dress a fighter. San Jose is a bigger team, and maybe a faster team. That creates problems. But that's a separate issue. My real roster gripe is the same as most other people's: The 4th line is not good enough. A real energy line that can change momentum in the game would be nice. Maltby and Draper need to play better. The Wings usually make smart personnel decisions and there may be good reasons for leaving some of the guys they have in GR where they're at, but I have trouble believing Darren Helm wouldn't be an upgrade over any of the three 4th liners they're dressing now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doc Holiday 0 Report post Posted January 18, 2009 I didn't know having an enforcer would make our entire team much bigger and more physical. Thanks for letting me know. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
j.hoop 64 Report post Posted January 18, 2009 thread number of this type: 100 how many times does it have to be said there is no cap room, and kopecky (for some reason beyond all of us) isnt going anywhere (yet). wait till the deadline, and if they acquire what you are asking for, feel free to say I TOLD YA SO. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
betterREDthandead 58 Report post Posted January 18, 2009 Isn't this what we heard all last year after losing to Anaheim the year before? How we need an enforcer otherwise we're never winning Stanley? Didn't convince anyone that's not true? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrisdetroit 189 Report post Posted January 18, 2009 Oh for Christ's sake. You are imply that Franzen was injured because he was roughed up. He has a cramp and he even said it wasn't from a hit. The difference in the game was that they scored on 2 break aways and we didn't score on our two. We scored 5 goals against them in their own building. Did you even watch the game? We did not get physically dominated, and we lost by 1 goal in their own building. As far as them being bigger and hungrier, that's what everybody said when we met them in the 07 playoffs. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CenterIce 83 Report post Posted January 18, 2009 I don't know what game you guys were watching but I saw two things.Lebda's stupid ass play to push the net out of place when he obviously didn't have to which resulting in a pp goal by the Sharks.And a CLEAR offsides that should have been called but it wasn't.It was a game of inches last night.They didn't dominate us and we didn't dominate them.We scored 5 goals in their building and lost by ONE goal.You guys need to chill out,I wouldn't put too much into this game. That play looked onside to me. The replays they showed had the puck cross the line before Marleau took his skate off the line. Allowing San Jose to get two breaks behind the D were the killers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
