Convinced yet?

[IILeiBlazeII 15]

Alright... I can't take these ridiculous threads I've only... I think both sides of this argument have merit, but both sides are so bull-headed, they can't listen to one another. Good grief!

Ok. When we won the Stanley Cup last year, we had serious grinders (not enforcers) playing in the playoffs. These guys played tough, too... Drake, McCarty, Helm (especially)... these guys were slamming and banging up and down the ice. They added a tenacity that we aren't seeing this year. I don't care how many goals you score, if you don't have these people in the lineup, you are going to look flat (see Wings '09 9 times out of 10... there have been exceptions).

HOWEVER! In the playoffs, you can use your... black aces, I believe they're called? Someone that is more knowledgable about the lingo can correct me if I'm wrong. The way it works (or so I understand) is that you can sub in your reserves without worrying about people claiming them off of the waiver wire. WE WILL DO THIS IN THE PLAYOFFS! Helm will be up... maybe even Leino will be up... I'd imagine McCarty or Downey (who hasn't won the Cup while playing... I don't think he played a single playoff game last year, despite earning a ring)... send Draper and Kopecky and Malts down and bring'em up... everything will be fine.

Deep breaths, folks. Deep breaths.

[Ms_Hockey 0]

The fourth line needs re-working, but I see no need for an enforcer. We either hold our own or we skate away.

The Red Wings have always been more of a finesse team. At the end of the day, shoving someone down on the ice & slamming their face into the boards isn't what scores goals. We just not an overly physical team, and it comes through in the stats - being the least penalized team in the NHL.

So no, I disagree. We don't need guys out there just to bang bodies around.

In 2007, the Ducks won the cup on muscle. In 2008, the Wings won it on finesse. Two different ways of play - both equally respectable.

Edited January 18, 2009 by Ms_Hockey

[Pucks 66]

Okay, we all clearly know that I'm a strong advocate for an Enforcer in the game of hockey, or AT MINIMUM a gritty fourth line. Not Kirk Maltby Gritty, but someone that actually can slam someone out of the way of the goalie's net if needed without turtling afterwards.

Last night was obvious that the Sharks had a clear agenda to out muscle Detroit and it clearly got in their heads. They lost Franzen to an injury, were embarressed in scrums, and let the other team's fourth line dominate. As a hockey fan, if I weren't a die hard Wings fan, I'd watch last night's game and see two teams- Men vs. Boys.

I don't think we need a 'goon', I'm not a proponent of that. NHL 'tough guys' are no longer goons, they're the top skaters/ passers/ and defensive minded enforcers out of hundreds of minor league teams.

I think it's time for Babcock, mainly Holland, to toss away some loyalty and dismantle the 4th line completely. Yes, they'll give you a few point game here and there, but we need a line like-

Abdelkader-Helm- Downey...

That's it... until then, watch our forwards drop like flies to physical play. Hope you're back soon Franzen.

I would truly love an enforcer is he has a nice set of goalie pads, and can stop more pucks than a shooter tutor.

[cnot19 191]

In the same vein of getting sizey, useful players who can also toss the mitts, I'd also like to see the Wings trade for a #6/7 defenceman who plays positionally smart and can clear out the front of the net when called on. If the Oilers weren't obsessed with making everybody on their team play like fourth-line pluggers, I'd suggest we try to get Strudwick but he's like a god in Edmonton.

Strudwick is a great 6/7 d man and has been used as a foward before. He is a player who knows his role and can hand out punishment in fornt of the net. I would be in favor of trading meech or lebda for him.

[betterREDthandead 58]

and for the millionth time, didn't Downey play a sizeable portion of that SC season?

esteef

REGULAR season, yes. We certainly don't need an enforcer to make it to the playoffs.

[C-TownWing 0]

Last night was a great game. The Wings were not "dominate" physically, but they do lack size, that Downie and McCarty really wont improve. Thats not to say the Wings need the size, cause they dont. San Jose is an amazing team with huge players who happen to be really talented. Anyone dissapointed in the wings play against IMO the favorites to win the cup this year, on the road, in the middle of a road trip, scoring 5 goals will never be pleased I guess.

This seems to be lost a lot of the time...these west coast trips, whether the Canadian or US version, are brutal, and we were playing our 3rd in 4 nights, one of which was against an equally physical Anaheim team. Not to mention the fact that they wanted this game more--their home streak had just been ended, people were starting to talk about them being pretenders again (in part because of our last game with them)--it was a statement game to them.

Anyway, to me, true toughness is going out and playing your game despite what the other team does, it's not shoving and facewashes after the whistle or having a guy waste a roster spot to skate for two shifts and take 5 PIMs. We have tough up and down our roster--the book on us for a few years now says to be physical, teams do it, and we still play a composed game (and win) the vast majority of the time. Take their cheap shot, score on the PP. Don't give one back and play 4-on-4. Like it or not, that's Red Wings hockey and when we execute it, we're damn tough to beat.

Downey? For real? Nice guy, crappy hockey player. Also a crappy enforcer if nobody noticed.

All of that said, I'd like to see Helm and Abdelkader soon. Just because I don't believe in enforcers doesn't mean I don't believe in a couple good shift disturbers who can make something happen on the other end once in a while too.

[Coolio Mendez 7]

Isn't this what we heard all last year after losing to Anaheim the year before? How we need an enforcer otherwise we're never winning Stanley? Didn't convince anyone that's not true?

How can you forget about Dallas Drake, he was a HUGE part of our Stanley Cup run! I'm all for the enforcer, watching Datsyuk having to fend for himself is pathetic! Wings were being tossed around like rag dolls and watching them helplessly in the little scrums wasn't good either. When you have a guy like Samuelson who's the teams best agitator you've got a problem sir.

[Guest Shoreline]

How can you forget about Dallas Drake, he was a HUGE part of our Stanley Cup run! I'm all for the enforcer, watching Datsyuk having to fend for himself is pathetic! Wings were being tossed around like rag dolls and watching them helplessly in the little scrums wasn't good either. When you have a guy like Samuelson who's the teams best agitator you've got a problem sir.

Indeed.

[GoWings1905 2,694]

Aaron Downey or Darren McCarty would not have won the game for the Red Wings last night. One loss in January isn't the end of the world.

It figures these threads only show up after a loss.

[betterREDthandead 58]

How can you forget about Dallas Drake, he was a HUGE part of our Stanley Cup run! I'm all for the enforcer, watching Datsyuk having to fend for himself is pathetic! Wings were being tossed around like rag dolls and watching them helplessly in the little scrums wasn't good either. When you have a guy like Samuelson who's the teams best agitator you've got a problem sir.

Drake is not an enforcer. Sure, he got into a couple fights....so did Lilja, and Drake's last fight was January 2. I'm all for having a little-things guy like Drake, but that's different; he's not an enforcer, didn't play that role for us, and didn't fight at all in the playoffs.

[Heaton 1]

The only thing to be convinced about is that our 4th line sucked last year too during the regular season. Draper and Maltby aren't exactly going to show their worth outside of the playoffs on a daily basis.

[betterREDthandead 58]

The only thing to be convinced about is that our 4th line sucked last year too during the regular season. Draper and Maltby aren't exactly going to show their worth outside of the playoffs on a daily basis.

Agreed. I really, really hate to say it but Maltby isn't really useful any longer and Draper is fast approaching that, if he's not already there. It sucks, because those two have been Wings through and through and it's hard to imagine the team without them, but I think we'd be better off breaking in some of the Griffs like Helm.

[Guest E_S_A_D]

and for the millionth time, didn't Downey play a sizeable portion of that SC season?

esteef

+1 Esteef.

Downey's beat down of Laperriere after the brutal Lidstrom hit was a huge moment in building the team's chemistry last year. Lidstrom commented on that along with several others.

People are very ignorant when it comes to forgetting about Downey in the regular season and how that contributed to healthy Red Wings come playoff time. He did his job 100%.

[Guest E_S_A_D]

Downey? For real? Nice guy, crappy hockey player. Also a crappy enforcer if nobody noticed.

Are you kidding me?!?!?!? Don't you remember last year??????????

[Coolio Mendez 7]

Drake is not an enforcer. Sure, he got into a couple fights....so did Lilja, and Drake's last fight was January 2. I'm all for having a little-things guy like Drake, but that's different; he's not an enforcer, didn't play that role for us, and didn't fight at all in the playoffs.

So the definition of an enforcer to you is a guy who drops the gloves every other game? Drake was always known for his gritty play, first one to jump into a scrum and the last one out. You will always see him finish his checks, never skate away from an opposing player willing to drop the gloves and most importantly he would protect his teammates. Thats an enforcer in my books.

[Coolio Mendez 7]

A Final Statement: If a team stands up for each other an enforcer is not necessary. Sadly the Wings lack in that department

They don't need to eat up a lot of ice time, they just need to be there - and once in while come out and remind everyone. Hows Chris Neil looking over in Ottawa?

Edited January 19, 2009 by Coolio Mendez

[thedisappearer 291]

A Final Statement: If a team stands up for each other an enforcer is not necessary. Sadly the Wings lack in that department

Sadly, you are clueless.

[Coolio Mendez 7]

Sadly, you are clueless.

Good point!

[Never_Retire_Steve 35]

I agree 100% that the 4th line needs a tune up

[thedisappearer 291]

Good point!

I shouldn't have to state it. Dats stands up for himself. Rafs got into it last night. Hossa has attitude. Huds doesn't back down. Zets gets physical.

Face it- you want fights. That's fine, but it's not stopping us from winning, nor is it the reason we lost ONE GAME.

[servo 15]

Okay, we all clearly know that I'm a strong advocate for an Enforcer in the game of hockey, or AT MINIMUM a gritty fourth line. Not Kirk Maltby Gritty, but someone that actually can slam someone out of the way of the goalie's net if needed without turtling afterwards.

Last night was obvious that the Sharks had a clear agenda to out muscle Detroit and it clearly got in their heads. They lost Franzen to an injury, were embarressed in scrums, and let the other team's fourth line dominate. As a hockey fan, if I weren't a die hard Wings fan, I'd watch last night's game and see two teams- Men vs. Boys.

I don't think we need a 'goon', I'm not a proponent of that. NHL 'tough guys' are no longer goons, they're the top skaters/ passers/ and defensive minded enforcers out of hundreds of minor league teams.

I think it's time for Babcock, mainly Holland, to toss away some loyalty and dismantle the 4th line completely. Yes, they'll give you a few point game here and there, but we need a line like-

Abdelkader-Helm- Downey...

That's it... until then, watch our forwards drop like flies to physical play. Hope you're back soon Franzen.

Abdelkader needs to stay in the minors where he belongs (for now). Drapper is WAY to important in the face off circle, while I'd love to see Helm take Malby's job. As for Downey, I doubt that having him on the bench and on the ice for a whole 5 minutes would have been the difference in last nights game. I can't remember Shelley being on the ice once. He may have shifted but he wasn't the one throwing big checks nor did he try to muck it up after the whistle. The rest of his team did that fine without him.

Edited January 19, 2009 by servo

[Never_Retire_Steve 35]

I don't believe that threads like these or about our goaltending show up only after losses. It's just that losses tend to reinforce whatever opinion people have about the subject. Even though we won the Stanley Cup last year I am sure there are people looking at certain aspects of our and not liking it. For example, I thought we would need to play more of a North American style to win the Cup (I was wrong), however, I still hold that belief as we had some really bad playoffs not too long ago where one could argue that part of the early exits were due to lack of toughness/grit

[C-TownWing 0]

Are you kidding me?!?!?!? Don't you remember last year??????????

You're absolutely right...for whatever reason, I remembered him mostly giving beatdowns of middleweights (probably skewed by the memory of Laperriere). I went back, checked the record, and he represented well against guys like Parros and Shelley.

So I officially retract that comment, but point out that it wasn't an integral part of what I was saying

Edited January 19, 2009 by C-TownWing

[Zeke 5]

A Final Statement: If a team stands up for each other an enforcer is not necessary. Sadly the Wings lack in that department

They don't need to eat up a lot of ice time, they just need to be there - and once in while come out and remind everyone. Hows Chris Neil looking over in Ottawa?

I agree that Downey brings very little to the table skills wise,but replacing Maltby would not be a major downgrade.He brings a level of protection that the players admit they appreciate.He's also a fan favourite in Detroit,and a positive dressing room presence.

And he always gives my kids "high fives" in the pregame skate.(last year)

[RainingBlood 8]

Okay, we all clearly know that I'm a strong advocate for an Enforcer in the game of hockey, or AT MINIMUM a gritty fourth line. Not Kirk Maltby Gritty, but someone that actually can slam someone out of the way of the goalie's net if needed without turtling afterwards.

Last night was obvious that the Sharks had a clear agenda to out muscle Detroit and it clearly got in their heads. They lost Franzen to an injury, were embarressed in scrums, and let the other team's fourth line dominate. As a hockey fan, if I weren't a die hard Wings fan, I'd watch last night's game and see two teams- Men vs. Boys.

I don't think we need a 'goon', I'm not a proponent of that. NHL 'tough guys' are no longer goons, they're the top skaters/ passers/ and defensive minded enforcers out of hundreds of minor league teams.

I think it's time for Babcock, mainly Holland, to toss away some loyalty and dismantle the 4th line completely. Yes, they'll give you a few point game here and there, but we need a line like-

Abdelkader-Helm- Downey...

That's it... until then, watch our forwards drop like flies to physical play. Hope you're back soon Franzen.

Hey smoke, what kind of enforcers are you talking about I can give you a handful of enforcers that skate with concrete in their skates, and you think the right change is putting Abdelkader out there. He has played in 2 NHL games and in 40 ahl games this yera he has 12 goals. Not exactly what you would call lighting up the board and enough to even think about being called up. Who's to say the kid can even play yet. Helm ill give you, but Downey :looney: . Thats the problem all along. Downey wasn't out there skating in slow motion while the rest of the team passed him by. Downey makes Maltby's speed look like a young Pavel Bure. s*** the Wings are 3 points behind the sharks and you are making it seem like the season is over. Sometimes people like you make it hard to actually look at the message board. I guess the whole Nick Nolte avatar goes well with you. Both of yah need to lay off the sauce.

Edited January 19, 2009 by RainingBlood