Lidstrom & Datsyuk suspended for skipping ASG

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Ok, seems like we need to take a few steps backwards in here. Facts, and my opinions. Please tell me if I am way off base on any of this whether it is facts or my opinions.

- Technically, do Lidstrom and Datsyuk deserve to miss this next game due to the exact written rules? Yes. I personally think the rule is silly, but I understand why it is in place so not everybody doesn't play in the All-Star game. Whatever, me thinking it is a bit stupid isn't going to change the rule. I think we at least "understand" the rule per se and aren't griping so much that Lidstrom and Datsyuk or missing the game because of the rule and the rule alone.

- No, Bettman shouldn't get blamed for everything. However, he makes himself an easy target. For this incident specifically, he has handled it bad. Very bad. The timing of how this happened is just all wrong.

- And, whether it is right or wrong, accurate or not, biased or unbiased, him looking like he struck a backdoor deal with Crosby so Crosby didn't miss any suspension time gives the perception of favoritsm towards Crosby. And I'm not one to pile on Crosby and still don't, but this just gives off the perception of favortism towards Crosby because he is a main marketing effort for the league. Again, I don't blame Crosby for this whatsoever, he did what he thought he should do to not get suspended for this and dotted his lower-case j's and crossed his f's. Good for him. Crosby himself doesn't really have much to do with this in my opinion. Bettman's seemed favortism towards him is more of the deal here which makes all this questionable.

- I have not read anywhere that Datsyuk and Lidstrom were made aware of these things in time enough to not get suspended, or at least a similar deal to what Bettman seemed to give to Crosby.

- Just because Lidstrom and Datsyuk missed an All-Star game doesn't make them questionable people or bad leaders or whatever. They just missed an All-Star game, nothing more or less.

[seeinred 1,488]

People aren't condemning Holland for not telling Datsyuk and Lidstrom that they could just show up and avoid suspension because we know that had KH known, he would have offered it to Nick and Pavs as a possibility. That's all the proof I need that the original "understanding" didn't have the Crosby provision in it originally.

[Anomalously 0]

Who's to say that they didn't offer up a couple of alternates?

Rumor has it that the League wanted Zata, Hossa and Rafalski - none of which were available, as they'd all made other plans.

Who's to say that the Wings didn't say "Hey....Hudler would love to go! Or how 'bout Danny Cleary? They've both been awesome for us, both this Season, and last!" only to have the League respond with "Who? No thanks. Nobody outside Detroit knows who those guys are."

Not that he's a star by any stretch, but Hudler would have rocked in the ASG. (And he does have more points than All-Star starter Jonathan Toews, plus Eric Staal, Dustin Brown, and maybe more.)

[b.shanafan14 733]

The point, is that on Friday Bettman made an exception to the original rule, created back in February stating you had to PLAY in the ASG, for Crosby. Great for Crosby, a single 22 year-old living with Mario Lemeiux who could drop his video game and get on a plane, but not exactly great for Lidstrom and Datsyuk who have familes and injuries as well.

The later character assassination enjoyed across the league stems from the perception that Lidstrom and Datsyuk knew "all along" that this exception was in place and "all they had to do" was "show up" to avoid the suspension. That is obviously not the case, as the exception did not even exist until the day they all of sudden were required to be there for.

Even more upseting is Bettman and Crosby actually encouraged this perception.

AMEN. Thats what we were all arguing in the first place. Some people dismiss what they see with their own two eyes as Crosby haters overreacting or Sid getting a bad rap for following the rules. When he and Bettman devise a way to beat the system put in place, and then everyone proceeds to scoff at Lidstrom and Datsyuk of all players in the league for being greedy or lazy or neglectful of the fans, when the fact of the matter is such a loophole was never in play and its one thing, like egroen said, to be a Canadian in his 20s with no family asked to go rub elbows with the media that can't get enough of him in Montreal, of whom he was a fan when he was a kid, and telling Datsyuk (Russian) and Lidstrom (Swedish), both with families, both injured and both thoroughly ignored by the media that because Sidney had no problem making it here yesterday, you two better be on the next plane to Montreal to play the media's wallflowers or else you can't play for your fans, because that wouldn't be fair to the fans.

This whole thing is moronic.

Edited January 27, 2009 by b.shanafan14

[egroen 384]

link?

Harold, I'm not sure what you want... this was clear as day to me even before Lidstrom and Datsyuk themselves said they had not heard about the new "exception" until Friday.

Colin Campbell himself states the rule (twice), as it was created by Bettman and presented to the GMs back in February (they have to PLAY in the ASG or miss one):

http://watch.tsn.ca/#clip132854

Crosby, shooting himself in the foot, even admits he did not know about the exception until he talked personally with Bettman over the phone on friday, and promptly hopped on a plane:

http://www.kuklaskorner.com/index.php/hock...sby_in_montreal

The policy was: You miss playing in the All Star Game due to an injury, you must miss a game immediately preceding or following the ASG to validate that injury. That's it.

Edited January 27, 2009 by egroen

[Broken 16 381]

AMEN. Thats what we were all arguing in the first place. Some people dismiss what they see with their own two eyes as Crosby haters overreacting or Sid getting a bad rap for following the rules. When he and Bettman devise a way to beat the system put in place, and then everyone proceeds to scoff at Lidstrom and Datsyuk of all players in the league for being greedy or lazy or neglectful of the fans, when the fact of the matter is such a loophole was never in play and its one thing, like egroen said, to be a Canadian in his 20s with no family asked to go rub elbows with the media that can't get enough of him in Montreal, of whom he was a fan when he was a kid, and telling Datsyuk (Russian) and Lidstrom (Swedish), both with families, both injured and both thoroughly ignored by the media that because Sidney had no problem making it here yesterday, you two better be on the next plane to Montreal to play the media's wallflowers or else you can't play for your fans, because that wouldn't be fair to the fans.

This whole thing is moronic.

Ok... so now its a race thing?

Edited January 27, 2009 by Broken 16

[redwingslady87 130]

Ok... so now its a race thing?

I think you mean nationality....

[Broken 16 381]

I think you mean nationality....

Sensationalism slips out once in a while. What can I say?

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Harold, I'm not sure what you want... this was clear as day to me even before Lidstrom and Datsyuk themselves said they had not heard about the new "exception" until Friday.

Colin Campbell himself states the rule (twice), as it was created by Bettman and presented to the GMs back in February (they have to PLAY in the ASG or miss one):

http://watch.tsn.ca/#clip132854

Crosby, shooting himself in the foot, even admits he did not know about the exception until he talked personally with Bettman over the phone on friday, and promptly hopped on a plane:

http://www.kuklaskorner.com/index.php/hock...sby_in_montreal

The policy was: You miss playing in the All Star Game due to an injury, you must miss a game immediately preceding or following the ASG to validate that injury. That's it.

What I want is people to stop making things up. or provide some links I haven't seen that actually verify what they're claiming.

Campbell is talking about the rule. That's not the text of the rule. That's him talking about it off the cuff in an interview.

Where in the link about Crosby does it say he talked with Bettman on Friday and hopped on the plane?

Q. Just, I guess, a comment from you on your decision to come here this weekend. There’s been some talk that perhaps if you didn’t come, you wouldn’t be eligible to play in the Penguins’ next game.

SIDNEY CROSBY: Yeah, my plan was to come here from the moment that I decided that I wasn’t going to be able to play due to injury. I’d had a talk with Gary Bettman as to the capacity of me being here, what it was going to be.

I obviously wanted to be here, but still want the focus to be on the guys that are here, too, and not the fact that I’m coming.

I’m happy to be a part of it. I’m probably not here playing like I would like to be, but it’s the second-best thing and I’m happy to be here anyway.

...

Q. I’m not sure every player has direct communication with the Commissioner. How did that work out? Did you and Pat contact him or did Gary Bettman contact you directly?

SIDNEY CROSBY: Yeah, we just contacted him. I wanted to get a feel for what he was thinking, what was important for me. It was just good to talk about that, because like I said, I was happy to be here, but at the same time, you know, the game is for the guys who are playing, and you know, to make sure we’re understood as to what I was going to participate in and things like that.

Q. Just want to clarify, had you not spoken to Gary Bettman, would you have been here this early? Or would you have just come in for the Sunday?

SIDNEY CROSBY: My original plan when I got hurt and what I went to the League with was probably coming in Saturday and Sunday. I figured with the two events, you know, the Skills and the game itself on Sunday.

But this is something I wasn’t totally aware of, but it’s fine. It’s a part of the game, and I’m more than happy to be here.

How is he shooting himself in the foot? If you listen to any of the interviews where he talks about it, he's saying he was unaware of the rule about being suspended, not the alleged "crosby exception." You exactly demonstrate my point in that you guys are making bad assumptions to fit your preconceived notions about what happened.

He also says "we contacted" Bettman. Just like Holland could have for his players.

The league stated a policy at a managers meeting last year, which Campbell says several times in his interview. He also says the managers understood the rule at that meeting. It's not really a rule, it's an unofficial agreement. If Holland, as GM, was unclear of this rule, he should've clarified it then or at the very least should've clarified it when Lidstrom and Datsyuk were not attending and were going to have to miss a game.

Yet people have stated repeatedly that Gary Bettman called Crosby on Friday and said he needed to attend or be suspended. Clearly there was a phonecall, but I haven't heard it was friday, and it actually sounds like Crosby or the Penguins organization initiated it. And I've heard in several interviews from several sources that Crosby was coming anyway. He only changed his plans to attend from Friday on instead of Saturday on. But he was already attending part of the festivities.

But everyone's talking like Bettman specifically picked up the phone on Friday and invented this Crosby exception. What it sounds like to me is that it's a stupid rule, even though the GM's agreed to it a year ago, it was poorly handled on all fronts, and Holland didn't want anything to do with it.

Edited January 27, 2009 by haroldsnepsts

[egroen 384]

Ok Harold,

Holland is either:

A) Incompetant, and did not pay attention to this "exception" to the rule that you believe existed since last February. And as quoted on the very first page of this thread, still failed to understand the entire context of the rule when he contacted Colin Campbell earlier in the week to let the NHL know Lidstrom's and Datsyuk's status.

B) Malicious, and did not TELL Datsyuk and Lidstrom about the "exception" until Friday.

Or the exception to the rule simply did not exist back in February, as all the evidence seems to overwhelmingly suggest (from not only Crosby, Lidstrom, Datsyuk and Holland, but Colin Campbell himself).

Edited January 27, 2009 by egroen

[Outsider 42]

Not that he's a star by any stretch, but Hudler would have rocked in the ASG. (And he does have more points than All-Star starter Jonathan Toews, plus Eric Staal, Dustin Brown, and maybe more.)

Hudler is as much a "star" as Mark friggin' Streit is. So's Dan Cleary. Either, hell....both, would have been awesome in the ASG. That doesn't mean the League wanted them, even if the Wings were to have offered them up.

[Broken 16 381]

Ok Harold,

Holland is either:

A) Incompetant, and did not pay attention to this "exception" to the rule that you believe existed since last February. And as quoted on the very first page of this thread, still failed to understand the entire context of the rule when he contacted Colin Campbell earlier in the week to let the NHL know Lidstrom's and Datsyuk's status.

B) Malicious, and did not TELL Datsyuk and Lidstrom about the "exception" until Friday.

Or the exception to the rule simply did not exist back in February, as all the evidence seems to overwhelmingly suggest (from not only Crosby, Lidstrom, Datsyuk and Holland, but Colin Campbell himself).

Incompetent and malicious. Those are pretty strong words. How about... lakadasical? Or maybe indifferent. Maybe unconcerned?

Bottom line is, I don't think anyone from Mike Ilitch down to the girl that hands me beers cares nearly as much about Crosby and what he does as you do. Just an observation.

[Yzersyukstromberg 0]

Really? Read the line above your quote. Its what I was responding to, you dips***. Just when I thought you couldn't be more of a doosh... you prove me wrong. Well done.

Who exactly is this part of your response directed at??? I'm hoping that it's not towards me, because at no time in either of my replies to your posts was I ignorant, nor did I get personal or insulting in my commentary.

[egroen 384]

Ok. I don't know what to say anymore and am putting this away for the evening.

It upset and angered me that Lidstrom and Datsyuk were being dragged through the mud (yes, I care about my local sports stars without personally knowing them, so sue me), especially after what overwhelmingly looks to be a last minute exception to the original rule is created, with what looks to be one certain player especially in mind. It upset me that Bettman and Crosby then proceeded to allow, and actually encourage the perception that Lidstrom and Datsyuk had it coming, while Crosby was a token of virtue. That upset me.

To my chagrin, I have ended up defending why I was upset, repeatedly, on a Red Wings forum. Man, you guys win -- until I have an actual original recording of what took place in the GM's meeting back in February -- you've got me.

How about... lakadasical? Or maybe indifferent. Maybe unconcerned?

You're right, a general manager of a multi-million dollar professional sports team, being paid millions of dollars himself and with ample competant staff is merely "lakadasical" for not mentioning to his two star players that they could avoid not only a suspension, but a public image black eye by merely attending the All Star Game.

Edited January 27, 2009 by egroen

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Ok Harold,

Holland is either:

A) Incompetant, and did not pay attention to this "exception" to the rule that you believe existed since last February. And as quoted on the very first page of this thread, still failed to understand the entire context of the rule when he contacted Colin Campbell earlier in the week to let the NHL know Lidstrom's and Datsyuk's status.

B) Malicious, and did not TELL Datsyuk and Lidstrom about the "exception" until Friday.

Or the exception to the rule simply did not exist back in February, as all the evidence seems to overwhelmingly suggest (from not only Crosby, Lidstrom, Datsyuk and Holland, but Colin Campbell himself).

again, what evidence? Datsyuk not knowing about it is evidence? Crosby didn't even know about the rule. How would he know about the "exception?"

What about:

C) Holland thought this rule was stupid and tried to work something out with Campbell earlier in the week. When he found out that Campbell was actually going to require them to come or be "suspended" Holland got pissed and took a stand.

I think one of the things people should actually be getting upset about is that because this is not a real suspension, Babcock apparently can't replace Dats and Lids in the lineup. This is a horrible rule/non-rule that has come to light in the worst way.

[Outsider 42]

Incompetent and malicious. Those are pretty strong words. How about... lakadasical? Or maybe indifferent. Maybe unconcerned?

Bottom line is, I don't think anyone from Mike Ilitch down to the girl that hands me beers cares nearly as much about Crosby and what he does as you do. Just an observation.

How 'bout simply "steadfast". As in....

"I don't care what other Teams, and other players, do. I'm not going crawling on my knees to that weasely little bastard with an 'Oh p-p-p-p-puhlease, Mr. Bettman, sir. Whatever can I do to appease you, so you won't drop your mighty hammer of authority on us?' And I'm sure as HELL not gonna ask a six time Norris Trophy winner, first ballot hall-of-famer, and a man who contributes more to this Game, and this League, in one Season than that crap weasel has ever dreamt of in his decade plus of DISservice to this League, to do it, either."

As I said initially. If Nick and Pavs said they couldn't go, for whatever reason, that's good enough for me.

Obviously, it was good enough for Holland, too. Good enough that he didn't feel compelled to stick his nose in Bettman's rear, trying to ream out a concession, (pun intended), for two Players he felt he didn't need to make any excuses for.

[Outsider 42]

Ok. I don't know what to say anymore and am putting this away for the evening.

It upset and angered me that Lidstrom and Datsyuk were being dragged through the mud (yes, I care about my local sports stars without personally knowing them, so sue me), especially after what overwhelmingly looks to be a last minute exception to the original rule is created, with what looks to be one certain player especially in mind. It upset me that Bettman and Crosby then proceeded to allow, and actually encourage the perception that Lidstrom and Datsyuk had it coming, while Crosby was a token of virtue. That upset me.

To my chagrin, I have ended up defending why I was upset, repeatedly, on a Red Wings forum. Man, you guys win -- until I have an actual original recording of what took place in the GM's meeting back in February -- you've got me.

You're right, a general manager of a multi-million dollar professional sports team, being paid millions of dollars himself and with ample competant staff is merely "lakadasical" for not mentioning to his two star players that they could avoid not only a suspension, but a public image black eye by merely attending the All Star Game.

You're not alone, egroen. I agree with everything you've posted. Everything but one.

That last paragraph. I truly believe that Holland did not know about any "exception" to the rule.

But I also believe that even if he HAD known, he wouldn't have played it any differently.

There are no black eyes, here. And here's the thing.....

How many, (and what types), of individuals were throwing Lids, (especially), and Dats under the bus. Not many, that I saw/heard. And only those who I considered to be of questionable character to begin with.

And yes.....I'm including Sidney Crosby in that bunch. Abso-frickin'-lutely.

The vast majority of the Players, the guys who matter, the guys who answer to the same standard.....

Overwhelmingly stated that if two Players of the caliber of Nicklas Lidstrom and Pavel Datsyuk stated that they weren't well enough to attend, then that was all the "explanation" that they needed.

The Players know. They recognize it when they see it. More than a few have commented, (recently), on certain "classless" and "embarassing" acts.

There are, indeed, "black eyes" that have been earned in this situation.

Nick and Dats are not the one's wearing 'em.

[55fan 5,133]

again, what evidence? Datsyuk not knowing about it is evidence? Crosby didn't even know about the rule. How would he know about the "exception?"

What about:

C) Holland thought this rule was stupid and tried to work something out with Campbell earlier in the week. When he found out that Campbell was actually going to require them to come or be "suspended" Holland got pissed and took a stand.

I think one of the things people should actually be getting upset about is that because this is not a real suspension, Babcock apparently can't replace Dats and Lids in the lineup. This is a horrible rule/non-rule that has come to light in the worst way.

Commenting on the bolded part only:

I totally agree. This was indeed a stupid rule.

I do have a question on whether or not the replacement is allowed or if it is a choice. I have read that they have money saved up where they could have called someone up for one game. Have they simply chosen not to do this to save money or is it not allowed because of the suspension?

I believe that Mac is on LTIR, which would mean that we could call up someone and still only have 23 on the roster, because as I understand it, a player does not count towards the 23 if he is on LTIR. Am I correct on that?

Does anyone have any insight on why they are playing short rather than calling someone up?

[RockyMountainWingGal 108]

So....anyone know what's up with the appeal? The ESPN ticker says the Wings are appealing the suspension but I cannot substantiate that. It seems it would be too late for them to make the trip unless they decide tomorrow morning....

[Broken 16 381]

How 'bout simply "steadfast". As in....

"I don't care what other Teams, and other players, do. I'm not going crawling on my knees to that weasely little bastard with an 'Oh p-p-p-p-puhlease, Mr. Bettman, sir. Whatever can I do to appease you, so you won't drop your mighty hammer of authority on us?' And I'm sure as HELL not gonna ask a six time Norris Trophy winner, first ballot hall-of-famer, and a man who contributes more to this Game, and this League, in one Season than that crap weasel has ever dreamt of in his decade plus of DISservice to this League, to do it, either."

As I said initially. If Nick and Pavs said they couldn't go, for whatever reason, that's good enough for me.

Obviously, it was good enough for Holland, too. Good enough that he didn't feel compelled to stick his nose in Bettman's rear, trying to ream out a concession, (pun intended), for two Players he felt he didn't need to make any excuses for.

Sounds good to me. There could be a million different reasons. My point is that I suspect that none of the Wings care in the least what Bettman thinks... let alone Crosby. They're not in high school.

Why some of you guys insist on dwelling on this big, fictitious cloak and dagger bit between Bettman and Crosby is beyond me. For all you know, they were on speaker phone with Bettman and Crosby's agent/GM/both did all the talking while Crosby sat there and twiddled his thumbs. Hell... Mario probably dialed the number personally.

This isn't brain surgery... one team attempted to explore options and one didn't. Crosby did exactly what he was asked to do by his many bosses. How is he to blame in any way, shape or form? If anything, he's an example of what SHOULD be done. The guy did what he thought he was supposed to do to appease the league and you guys are slamming him. None of his decisions were based in what he thought would harm the Wings. He was looking out for himself and his team.

Lidstrom already said it wouldn't have made any difference. He had to do what he had to do. Datsyuk doesn't care because he's more severly injured and probably wouldn't have played on Tuesday anyway.

I honestly don't understand this blind hatred. It's very weak...

[Casey 145]

Even if it were too late, overturning the suspension would be a smack in the face of Bettman for the inconsistent enforcement and interpretation of this rule.

People, let's be serious. Seriously, can you tell me that, even injured, a 6-time Norris Trophy winner with 4 Stanley Cups and a 2-time Lady Byng winner with 2 Stanley Cups wouldn't be at the game for the fans, so long as they didn't have to play? Are you telling me that either of these fierce competitors willingly took a game suspension rather than go gladhanding around for a few hours? Are you seriously telling me that they would willingly tell the team "Sorry, you'll have to play without us for a game", just so they can miss the standing around and flashbulbs?

Not a chance in hell. I could see some players doing it, but neither of these.

[55fan 5,133]

So....anyone know what's up with the appeal? The ESPN ticker says the Wings are appealing the suspension but I cannot substantiate that. It seems it would be too late for them to make the trip unless they decide tomorrow morning....

I've read conflicting articles. One said they were appealing, the other said the matter was "cut and dry" and there was nothing to appeal.

Time will tell, but I would think that you are correct when you say there isn't enough time. The best they could hope for would be some sort of stay where they were allowed to play tomorrow, but may have to serve the suspension later. That would not be in the best interest of the team as they are both coming back from injuries now and I believe one of them said he couldn't play anyway.

Sorry that didn't answer your question.

[Broken 16 381]

You're right, a general manager of a multi-million dollar professional sports team, being paid millions of dollars himself and with ample competant staff is merely "lakadasical" for not mentioning to his two star players that they could avoid not only a suspension, but a public image black eye by merely attending the All Star Game.

I was simply pointing out some other, less harsh, possibilities. Of course you would focus on "lackadasical"... the least likely of the three. Sorry I couldn't list them all, but there are much more than "Incompetant" and "Malicious". The two that you tried to force feed.

[RockyMountainWingGal 108]

I've read conflicting articles. One said they were appealing, the other said the matter was "cut and dry" and there was nothing to appeal.

Time will tell, but I would think that you are correct when you say there isn't enough time. The best they could hope for would be some sort of stay where they were allowed to play tomorrow, but may have to serve the suspension later. That would not be in the best interest of the team as they are both coming back from injuries now and I believe one of them said he couldn't play anyway.

Sorry that didn't answer your question.

Yeah I'm pretty sure it's a done deal - as usual ESPN is out of sync with the NHL.

Is it too much to ask for one of our goalies to steal us a game for once this season, while two of our stars sit out? Or for our D to play a solid game - yes sans Nick and Stuart? Hopefully the Wings are motivated by this, play a solid game, beat Columbus, and we can just move on....

[esteef 2,679]

Sounds good to me. There could be a million different reasons. My point is that I suspect that none of the Wings care in the least what Bettman thinks... let alone Crosby. They're not in high school.

Why some of you guys insist on dwelling on this big, fictitious cloak and dagger bit between Bettman and Crosby is beyond me. For all you know, they were on speaker phone with Bettman and Crosby's agent/GM/both did all the talking while Crosby sat there and twiddled his thumbs. Hell... Mario probably dialed the number personally.

This isn't brain surgery... one team attempted to explore options and one didn't. Crosby did exactly what he was asked to do by his many bosses. How is he to blame in any way, shape or form? If anything, he's an example of what SHOULD be done. The guy did what he thought he was supposed to do to appease the league and you guys are slamming him. None of his decisions were based in what he thought would harm the Wings. He was looking out for himself and his team.

Lidstrom already said it wouldn't have made any difference. He had to do what he had to do. Datsyuk doesn't care because he's more severly injured and probably wouldn't have played on Tuesday anyway.

I honestly don't understand this blind hatred. It's very weak...

What's weak is you just repeating the same bulls*** over and over. Dress it up however you want, the fact remains that Crosby received an exemption where others did not. Who gives a s*** exactly who dialed the f***in' phone or how it went down? He got the exemption didn't he?

And waaah f***in' waaah, look who's got the Crosby man-love now? Poor Crosby was just trying to appease the league? He was trying to play the next game back period. If the regulaur season game penalty wasn't in effect for missing the ASG, NO ONE from Pittsburgh would've been calling Bettman. Poor little angelic Crosby, we're all just ganging up on him!

esteef