Franzen or Hudler

[eva unit zero 271]

http://blog.mlive.com/snapshots/2008/03/th...ning_extra.html

Am I missing something? Cleary's got a 3 1/2 year NTC. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't want to go anywhere.

A Cleary trade would be unlikely but if a team were specifically looking to trade for him, willing to give up a big package that worked well for the Wings, and Cleary was willing, then it could happen; his salary is, of course, one of the reasons the Wings would be willing to trade him.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

If he were Franzen's size, he'd be much better than Jagr because Jagr could never backcheck or take faceoffs like Hudler does.

So Hudler is now a great backchecker as well as a great faceoff man.

What will you say next about him? That he's as good a fighter as Lilja and Boogaard?

[Z and D for the C 712]

If we sign hossa, then Huds is more valuable.

If we don't sign Hossa, than (although it's irrelevant as we'll be able to have both anyway) Franzen would be more valuable.

[under_par_00 45]

Hudler is a great passer and has a very good shot.

Franzen has great hands and a big body, but sometimes I question his work ethic.

Trade Franzen at the deadline for some picks, to compensate for the RFA picks we wouldn't be getting after signing Hudler.

Could we sign Hudler and Hossa?

[eva unit zero 271]

So Hudler is now a great backchecker as well as a great faceoff man.

What will you say next about him? That he's as good a fighter as Lilja and Boogaard?

No, he's not a great backchecker. But he's an above-average defensive forward, which is something Jagr never was.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Franzen can create scoring chances for himself better than Hudler can. Just look at the way he played last year in the playoffs. Like a man possessed. I can't envision Hudler playing like that. He's too easy to knock off the puck.

Pisani played like a man possessed once, too.

Hudler makes others around him better, no matter who it is. Franzen doesn't. And Hudler is not easy to knock off the puck. Anything but. You've been holding on to that judgement since the guy was a rookie, GMR, but it doesn't hold up anymore. Hudler has adapted and his size is no longer an issue.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

No, he's not a great backchecker. But he's an above-average defensive forward, which is something Jagr never was.

I still think it's ridiculous to say he'd be a lot better than Jagr if not for his size.

Where do you get such ideas from? Jagr was big, but there's no reason to think that his size is what made him great. He was never really a power forward.

Besides, you don't have to be huge to dominate. Look at Marty St. Louis who has been awesome for several years and won the Hart trophy. The guy is smaller than Hudler.

Point is that you're greatly exaggerating Hudler, and are now claiming that if he was bigger he'd be a lot better than one of the 15-20 best forwards ever to play the game, which is what Jagr was.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Franzen. I'd pick Hudler, but we're small enough as is. We get a bit bigger, around Franzen, then I'd keep Hudler. He's got alot of skill.

[eva unit zero 271]

I still think it's ridiculous to say he'd be a lot better than Jagr if not for his size.

Where do you get such ideas from? Jagr was big, but there's no reason to think that his size is what made him great. He was never really a power forward.

Besides, you don't have to be huge to dominate. Look at Marty St. Louis who has been awesome for several years and won the Hart trophy. The guy is smaller than Hudler.

Point is that you're greatly exaggerating Hudler, and are now claiming that if he was bigger he'd be a lot better than one of the 15-20 best forwards ever to play the game, which is what Jagr was.

No, I claimed that if he were Franzen's size and strength while still retaining his own skill level in all other areas he would be a better player than Jagr because of the following. Hudler is a better defensive player than Jagr ever was, better on faceoffs than Jagr ever was, a legitimate elite playmaker, and has a very good shot. He is a good skater. I claimed that he would be Jagr, but a better defensive player and better on faceoffs. You don't realize how skilled Hudler is, do you?

I'm not exaggerating Hudler; you're underestimating Hudler.

[clutchngrab 12]

If you look at Hudler's development over the last 2 or 3 years, his improvement has surpassed every wing I can think of (except maybe Dats) - and still at a young age. Its all about potential and upside which translates to value now and in the future. I felt the same thing about Dats when people were questioning his playoffs and heart. Hudler has worked his ass off on his skating and its obvious compared to a couple years ago.

Both players can go into stretches of inconsistency, but to be honest, I can't get away from thinking that Franzen could easily be another Dustin Penner....

Finally, if Hossa signs, then for chemistry and team role sake, I see more need for Hudler than Franzen. Cleary and Homer give us the up front presence and Flip becomes somewhat expendable if Hudler stays and Leino develops like it looks like he should.

[Peleshob 0]

I really hope the signing order is Hossa then Hudler. I love the Mule and I'm happy for everything he's done, but I think Hudler can be had for less cash. This team already has great defensive forwards... they have guys who will go to the net. I think Hudler brings a level of offense that has potential to be better than Franzen's. At this point I would love to see Holland fit this line-up under the cap for next season:

Datsyuk-Zetterberg-Holmstrom

Hudler-Filppula-Hossa

Leino-Helm-Cleary

Maltby-Draper-Kopecky (Could be anyone for Kopecky, may not be re-signed)

Lidstrom-Rafalski

Kronwall-Stuart

Lilja-Ericsson

Osgood

Howard

I think that's a very solid line-up. I'd drop Maltby and maybe Draper, but the Wings won't do that. I still feel that amidst Flip's "lack of production" that he's got great upside. That whole second line does.

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

Plus if Hudler signs elsewhere, we get draft picks since he's a RFA. If Franzen signs with another team, we get nothing back, UFA.

Dislike this train of thought. Picks don't guarantee anything, and even less so with regards to replacing a play making center of Hudler's quality. The two players should be kept or let go based on their own merits, not this reasoning.

Edited February 13, 2009 by Heroes of Hockeytown

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

No, I claimed that if he were Franzen's size and strength while still retaining his own skill level in all other areas he would be a better player than Jagr because of the following. Hudler is a better defensive player than Jagr ever was, better on faceoffs than Jagr ever was, a legitimate elite playmaker, and has a very good shot. He is a good skater. I claimed that he would be Jagr, but a better defensive player and better on faceoffs. You don't realize how skilled Hudler is, do you?

I'm not exaggerating Hudler; you're underestimating Hudler.

Based on that, Martin St. Louis is one of the 5 best players ever to play the game. He is all those things you just attributed to Hudler, except he's even more skilled and more dominant, because he has put up huge numbers in the past, including a Hart trophy and an Art Ross trophy.

Most importantly, he's even smaller than Hudler.

This is not boxing. There are no weight classes in hockey, and it's not wise to measure players' greatness according to their size.

You also seem to be forgetting that Jagr has carried teams in the past. Hudler is just a skilled player on a team full of superstars.

[Spinner 6]

If Hossa stays then definately it would be Hudler. They had great chemistry last night. If he doesn't then I think we get to keep them both.

[egroen 384]

I think we're going to find that the Red Wings organization value Frazen more than Hudler.... and for obvious reasons.

Franzen is a modern day power forward. That's a player we need more than a small guy with a good shot.

Franzen > Hudler

I agree they will try and sign Franzen before Hudler, but we are not comparing apples to apples. Franzen is a UFA and Hudler is a RFA -- so it makes a lot of sense to deal with the UFA first and get a handle on what he wants. You have a much higher chance of keeping an RFA and more options.

If they were both UFAs, it would be interesting to see who they signed first.

What a great game for Hudler last night - he really looks good out there with Hossa. Could we finally see him regularly on the second line? He is more valuable there than Filppula, when Franzen and Holmstrom come back.

Playing Hudler with Franzen and Hossa makes a lot of sense - we see he has a lot of compatibility with Hossa, and those two play off each other well. Franzen is not a passer, but is perfect for guys like Hossa and Hudler who can either shoot well while Franzen is creating havoc in front of the net, and he is also a great option to pass to. I really hope we see a line of Franzen/Hudler - Hudler/Franzen - Hossa.

I agree that if Hossa signs, Hudler is easily more important than Franzen -- but I would love to see Franzen and Hudler both signed, and the only remote way to do so would be to trade Filppula.

Have any of you noticed Leino going straight to the net, all the time? His presence makes me question the value of Franzen a bit more, as well.

[VM1138 1,921]

I don't think Franzen is leagues ahead of Hudler. They're very different players of equal skill in what they do. Different roles.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

I don't think Franzen is leagues ahead of Hudler. They're very different players of equal skill in what they do. Different roles.

Franzen doesn't have anywhere near the skill that Hudler does. As Samuelsson said last night, after mentioning the big three, "Hudler is right up there." Franzen has a nice shot and can stand in front of the net. But Hudler's shot is just as good, yet he can make passes and distribute the puck second to only Datsyuk.

The thing that people forget is that the Red Wings have been running on all cylinders for years having only Homer as the true net front presence. Whats been their MO is to have guys like Hudler on the roster, not a trio of garbage goal scorers. They'd be just fine retaining Homer and Cleary for that role, and then bringing along a guy like Abdelkader in that same mold for the future.

And this argument isn't even touching on the contracts each respective player will pursue. Franzen is 30 with only 1.5 good seasons under his belt. He isn't going to get any better than he is now, considering he plays with great linemates, on a great PP, and gets good ice time. Hudler, on the other hand, could have better regular linemates, more ice time, and at 25, has yet to reach his peak. It wouldn't make sense for Hudler to go for a long-term contract right now. What would make sense for Hudler is to make the Red Wings an offer they can't refuse by offering to play for less money for a year or two. I've ran the numbers, and the Wings are going to have to cut one of Hudler, Filppula, or Franzen lose. If Franzen asks for 4, Filppula's making 3, and Hudler accepts 2.5 for a year or two, then hes essentially forcing the Wings to sign him at that value and move someone else. That only ensures Hudler a greater role on the team and more ice time, which he's likely to make use of.

70 or 80 points is not out of the realm of reality for a guy like Hudler once he gets a regular 2nd line role, and if he posts a 60 point season, followed by a 70-80 point season, someone will come calling with a 5M offer for a 26/27 year old who has shown great development and maintained his skill, despite his size.

No, signing Hudler to a 1 or 2 year deal doesn't solidify our future as much as a longer deal would, but considering this is based n the assumption that Hossa stays for 6M a year, then the Wings shouldnt be too concerned about retaining half their forward unit for years to come.

[Wombat 26]

Both players do different things, but I'd rather have Franzen. I think Franzen's role on the team is more unique than Hudler's. The Wings don't have another player like Franzen that can be a neo-power forward in the NHL. I thought a big part of the Wing's success last year in the playoffs was that they had 3 strong net-front guys (Homer, Franzen, Cleary) that they could spread out onto 3 lines and tire out the other team's defense. Of them, Franzen is the best at also creating his own offense.

I don't want to sound like I'm downgrading Hudler at all... he's defied all my expectations and has become a bona fide NHLer despite his stature. While I do find it ridiculous to compare Hudler at all to Jagr, Hudler has been playing well in his role on the team. Hudler may be more skilled but the team already has a lot of skill. The team doesn't have players like Franzen that combine size, puckhandling, finishing, checking, and defense.

I wouldn't sign Franzen to a super long term deal... 4 years would be great, but maybe 5 max. And the free agency situation does matter... I'd rather have Franzen and the pick compensation for Hudler (maybe a 2nd, maybe a 1st & 3rd) than just Hudler.

[thedatsyukian 7]

Franzen doesn't have anywhere near the skill that Hudler does. As Samuelsson said last night, after mentioning the big three, "Hudler is right up there." Franzen has a nice shot and can stand in front of the net. But Hudler's shot is just as good, yet he can make passes and distribute the puck second to only Datsyuk.

The thing that people forget is that the Red Wings have been running on all cylinders for years having only Homer as the true net front presence. Whats been their MO is to have guys like Hudler on the roster, not a trio of garbage goal scorers. They'd be just fine retaining Homer and Cleary for that role, and then bringing along a guy like Abdelkader in that same mold for the future.

And this argument isn't even touching on the contracts each respective player will pursue. Franzen is 30 with only 1.5 good seasons under his belt. He isn't going to get any better than he is now, considering he plays with great linemates, on a great PP, and gets good ice time. Hudler, on the other hand, could have better regular linemates, more ice time, and at 25, has yet to reach his peak. It wouldn't make sense for Hudler to go for a long-term contract right now. What would make sense for Hudler is to make the Red Wings an offer they can't refuse by offering to play for less money for a year or two. I've ran the numbers, and the Wings are going to have to cut one of Hudler, Filppula, or Franzen lose. If Franzen asks for 4, Filppula's making 3, and Hudler accepts 2.5 for a year or two, then hes essentially forcing the Wings to sign him at that value and move someone else. That only ensures Hudler a greater role on the team and more ice time, which he's likely to make use of.

70 or 80 points is not out of the realm of reality for a guy like Hudler once he gets a regular 2nd line role, and if he posts a 60 point season, followed by a 70-80 point season, someone will come calling with a 5M offer for a 26/27 year old who has shown great development and maintained his skill, despite his size.

No, signing Hudler to a 1 or 2 year deal doesn't solidify our future as much as a longer deal would, but considering this is based n the assumption that Hossa stays for 6M a year, then the Wings shouldnt be too concerned about retaining half their forward unit for years to come.

Pretty much my thoughts from someone else.

[clutchngrab 12]

Franzen doesn't have anywhere near the skill that Hudler does. As Samuelsson said last night, after mentioning the big three, "Hudler is right up there." Franzen has a nice shot and can stand in front of the net. But Hudler's shot is just as good, yet he can make passes and distribute the puck second to only Datsyuk.

The thing that people forget is that the Red Wings have been running on all cylinders for years having only Homer as the true net front presence. Whats been their MO is to have guys like Hudler on the roster, not a trio of garbage goal scorers. They'd be just fine retaining Homer and Cleary for that role, and then bringing along a guy like Abdelkader in that same mold for the future.

And this argument isn't even touching on the contracts each respective player will pursue. Franzen is 30 with only 1.5 good seasons under his belt. He isn't going to get any better than he is now, considering he plays with great linemates, on a great PP, and gets good ice time. Hudler, on the other hand, could have better regular linemates, more ice time, and at 25, has yet to reach his peak. It wouldn't make sense for Hudler to go for a long-term contract right now. What would make sense for Hudler is to make the Red Wings an offer they can't refuse by offering to play for less money for a year or two. I've ran the numbers, and the Wings are going to have to cut one of Hudler, Filppula, or Franzen lose. If Franzen asks for 4, Filppula's making 3, and Hudler accepts 2.5 for a year or two, then hes essentially forcing the Wings to sign him at that value and move someone else. That only ensures Hudler a greater role on the team and more ice time, which he's likely to make use of.

70 or 80 points is not out of the realm of reality for a guy like Hudler once he gets a regular 2nd line role, and if he posts a 60 point season, followed by a 70-80 point season, someone will come calling with a 5M offer for a 26/27 year old who has shown great development and maintained his skill, despite his size.

No, signing Hudler to a 1 or 2 year deal doesn't solidify our future as much as a longer deal would, but considering this is based n the assumption that Hossa stays for 6M a year, then the Wings shouldnt be too concerned about retaining half their forward unit for years to come.

I really like your analysis.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Besides, you don't have to be huge to dominate. Look at Marty St. Louis who has been awesome for several years and won the Hart trophy. The guy is smaller than Hudler.

Marty St. Louis was also waived in his early career cause he was too small. Same with Steve Sullivan -waived because he was "too small." Yet both these guys will go down as having twice the careers that Franzen ever did. Ironically, both also had decent production at a young age, but still not even as good as Hudler. Such is the irony of small players in the NHL. Maybe we should learn a little lesson from history. Heres some graphic evidence of what I mean:

Hudler is 25. At 24/25, St. Louis put up 18 points in 56 games, and spent a fair amount of time in the AHL that year. At 25/26, St. Louis put up 40 points in 78 games - 5 points fewer than Hudler has now in 23 more games being 1 year older than Hudler is now. At 26/27, St. Louis put up 35 points in 53 games - 10 points fewer than Hudler has now in 2 fewer games, despite being 2 years older at the time. It wasn't until St. Louis was 27/28 that he put up 70 points in 82 games. Hudler is currently on pace for 67 points in an 82 game span. So essentially, Hudler is where St. Louis was 3 years sooner. During St. Louis 70 point campaign, he was seeing 19:31 in ice time nonetheless. At Hudler's scoring rate this year, with the ice time St. Louis was getting when he scored 70 points, Hudler would ended this season with 97 points.

And this may be my all time favorite statistic: Martin St. Louis scored 94 points in 2003-2004, enough to win him the Art Ross that year. At the time, St. Louis played 1689 minutes, meaning he scored at a rate of one point per every 17.9 minutes. Hudlers scoring rate? 1 point per every 16.4 minutes. Had Hudler been in St. Louis shoes, playing 19:31 per game in Tampa, he could've hypothetically put up 102 points- as a 25 year old, no less. Not as a 29 year old in the midst of his prime.

Now, I'm not saying we should bank on hypotheticals. But what I am saying is St. Louis spent the majority of his years being written off because hes small, which seems to be the thing that people cant get past on this board when discussing Hudler. Like it or not, Hudler has loads of offensive talent that could put him in the elite category if given the chance, just as the case was with St. Louis, once he finally got his chance. St. Louis went undrafted and was signed and then waived by the Calgary Flames. I wonder if the Flames would like St. Louis on their team now? But I'm sure the Wings will find out how that feels if/when they let Hudler go to a team that gives him 16-18 minutes a game and 85 points on the season.

Oh, and one more thing. Because I know the "well theres no way to know if he'll still put up good numbers with more minutes" argument is going to come up.

With his current ice time, Hudler scores at a rate of 67 points per season.

In games with 15+ minutes, Hudler scores at a rate of 70 points per season.

In games with 16+ minutes, Hudler scores at a rate of 73 points per season.

Edited February 13, 2009 by YoungGuns1340

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Marty St. Louis was also waived in his early career cause he was too small. Same with Steve Sullivan -waived because he was "too small." Yet both these guys will go down as having twice the careers that Franzen ever did. Ironically, both also had decent production at a young age, but still not even as good as Hudler. Such is the irony of small players in the NHL. Maybe we should learn a little lesson from history. Heres some graphic evidence of what I mean:

Hudler is 25. At 24/25, St. Louis put up 18 points in 56 games, and spent a fair amount of time in the AHL that year. At 25/26, St. Louis put up 40 points in 78 games - 5 points fewer than Hudler has now in 23 more games being 1 year older than Hudler is now. At 26/27, St. Louis put up 35 points in 53 games - 10 points fewer than Hudler has now in 2 fewer games, despite being 2 years older at the time. It wasn't until St. Louis was 27/28 that he put up 70 points in 82 games. Hudler is currently on pace for 67 points in an 82 game span. So essentially, Hudler is where St. Louis was 3 years sooner. During St. Louis 70 point campaign, he was seeing 19:31 in ice time nonetheless. At Hudler's scoring rate this year, with the ice time St. Louis was getting when he scored 70 points, Hudler would ended this season with 97 points.

And this may be my all time favorite statistic: Martin St. Louis scored 94 points in 2003-2004, enough to win him the Art Ross that year. At the time, St. Louis played 1689 minutes, meaning he scored at a rate of one point per every 17.9 minutes. Hudlers scoring rate? 1 point per every 16.4 minutes. Had Hudler been in St. Louis shoes, playing 19:31 per game in Tampa, he could've hypothetically put up 102 points- as a 25 year old, no less. Not as a 29 year old in the midst of his prime.

Now, I'm not saying we should bank on hypotheticals. But what I am saying is St. Louis spent the majority of his years being written off because hes small, which seems to be the thing that people cant get past on this board when discussing Hudler. Like it or not, Hudler has loads of offensive talent that could put him in the elite category if given the chance, just as the case was with St. Louis, once he finally got his chance. St. Louis went undrafted and was signed and then waived by the Calgary Flames. I wonder if the Flames would like St. Louis on their team now? But I'm sure the Wings will find out how that feels if/when they let Hudler go to a team that gives him 16-18 minutes a game and 85 points on the season.

I'd like to think that Hudler can score as many points in as many minutes, but I doubt it. It's harder to have that kind of success when the team is banking on you. Hudler has never faced that kind of pressure in Detroit amidst a roster full of All Stars.

Also, these comparisons to other great players have got to stop. I know you didn't start these comparisons (in fact I contributed slightly to it ), but I just think it's best to treat him like a solid 2nd or 3rd line forward, instead of saying that he'd be better than Jagr if not for his size.

At this point the team should concentrate more on re-signing Hossa and/or Franzen, before banking on Hudler to carry the load in the future.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

I'd like to think that Hudler can score as many points in as many minutes, but I doubt it. It's harder to have that kind of success when the team is banking on you. Hudler has never faced that kind of pressure in Detroit amidst a roster full of All Stars.

Also, these comparisons to other great players have got to stop. I know you didn't start these comparisons (in fact I contributed slightly to it ), but I just think it's best to treat him like a solid 2nd or 3rd line forward, instead of saying that he'd be better than Jagr if not for his size.

At this point the team should concentrate more on re-signing Hossa and/or Franzen, before banking on Hudler to carry the load in the future.

Hudler, at best, will never be more than the 3rd best forward on this team - Hank and Datsyuk will be here throughout Hudler's peak and prime. Moreover, this is an analysis based on Detroit retaining Hossa and X player, the argument being for Hudler to be that X player. If Hossa and Hudler are the "chosen two", youre basically looking at Hudler being paired up with Hossa next year. Considering Hudler's playmaking/passing skills, there isn't a more ideal coupling than Hossa and Hudler. With the focus on the Eurotwins being primary, and the primary target on the 2nd line being Hossa, Hudler would flourish, and his value/production ratio if Hudler were to sign a reasonable 1-2 year deal at 2.5-3M per would be absolutely phenomenal, which is precisely the sort of thing the Wings need until Lidstrom's salary comes off the books.

To quell your fears about size and grit, GMR, just think: Hudler @ 2.8M + Neil @ 1.2M > Franzen @ 4M

[egroen 384]

I'd like to think that Hudler can score as many points in as many minutes, but I doubt it. It's harder to have that kind of success when the team is banking on you. Hudler has never faced that kind of pressure in Detroit amidst a roster full of All Stars.

Also, these comparisons to other great players have got to stop. I know you didn't start these comparisons (in fact I contributed slightly to it ), but I just think it's best to treat him like a solid 2nd or 3rd line forward, instead of saying that he'd be better than Jagr if not for his size.

At this point the team should concentrate more on re-signing Hossa and/or Franzen, before banking on Hudler to carry the load in the future.

I dunno -- I think Hudler is a very unique talent out there, and that comparisons to St. Louis are more appropriate than comparisons to your typical 2nd/3rd liner. Every step along the way, it is assumed Hudler will not meet the challange - It was assumed that in the Czech league (which he ended up leading), it was assumed that in the AHL, where the rink was smaller, and the players were bigger, faster and more physical (and he led the league and set a franchise record in assists for the Griffins), it was assumed that for the NHL (where he has done nothing but produce and improve) and it is assumed he will never produce with top line minutes -- well he got those minutes last night (Over 18 minutes - by far the most he has ever had) and he looked flat-out awesome - including scoring a goal-scorer's goal. He distributed the puck effectively, did not cough it up and did not get shoved around. I even saw him backchecking well. He looked like he belongs on that second line, which is really a 1b line.

He is consistently one of the top, if not the top player in the NHL for points per minute - each year. When do we start actually giving him the benefit of the doubt?

Edited February 13, 2009 by egroen

[ManLuv4Clears 7]

Obviously there's a lot of well deserved praise for Hudler on this thread, but I have one question for you folks. If Hudler is as great as everyone's making him out to be, what's to stop another team from putting an offer out there for him that Holland can't match? I mean if he is that great, I would bet that he would be with another team at the start of next season and the Wings would have a draft pick or two in their back pocket, unless of course Huds follows suit with the big guns and takes a home town discount to stay.

Edited February 13, 2009 by ManLuv4Clears