Franzen or Hudler

[thedatsyukian 7]

Obviously there's a lot of well deserved praise for Hudler on this thread, but I have one question for you folks. If Hudler is as great as everyone's making him out to be, what's to stop another team from putting an offer out there for him that Holland can't match? I mean if he is that great, I would bet that he would be with another team at the start of next season and the Wings would have a draft pick or two in their back pocket, unless of course Huds follows suit with the big guns and takes a home town discount to stay.

Nothing. Depending on his play throughout the rest of the season and the playoffs, he may very well get a large offer sheet.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Obviously there's a lot of well deserved praise for Hudler on this thread, but I have one question for you folks. If Hudler is as great as everyone's making him out to be, what's to stop another team from putting an offer out there for him that Holland can't match? I mean if he is that great, I would bet that he would be with another team at the start of next season and the Wings would have a draft pick or two in their back pocket, unless of course Huds follows suit with the big guns and takes a home town discount to stay.

No one is saying that can't happen. And a GM would be smart to throw 4M at Hudler - the Wings can't match that and Hudler would be worth it with 2nd line minutes. But there are two things to consider there: 1) the Wings can take Hudler to arbitration, just as they did with Flip. Players slated for arbitration can't be given offer sheets, and GMs can negotiate with their protected RFAs until their arbitration date, which is set in the favorable month of August. 2) Hudler would be smart to sign a short-term deal, as regardless of where he is next year, hes likely to see more minutes with better linemates. Even in Detroit, the Wings will have to cut someone up front to make room for Hudler/Hossa. And as we've seen with the better RFAs, those offer-sheets usally come in the form of long-term deals.

[egroen 384]

Obviously there's a lot of well deserved praise for Hudler on this thread, but I have one question for you folks. If Hudler is as great as everyone's making him out to be, what's to stop another team from putting an offer out there for him that Holland can't match? I mean if he is that great, I would bet that he would be with another team at the start of next season and the Wings would have a draft pick or two in their back pocket, unless of course Huds follows suit with the big guns and takes a home town discount to stay.

If you look at the offer sheets made since the lockout, most of them have been for someone who has already had that breakout season (Vanek) or fits into the mold of a budding power forward (Penner). Teams still seem to be pretty reluctant to give them, and so far, Hudler does not fit into the typical mold of the player given them.

[ManLuv4Clears 7]

No one is saying that can't happen. And a GM would be smart to throw 4M at Hudler - the Wings can't match that and Hudler would be worth it with 2nd line minutes. But there are two things to consider there: 1) the Wings can take Hudler to arbitration, just as they did with Flip. Players slated for arbitration can't be given offer sheets, and GMs can negotiate with their protected RFAs until their arbitration date, which is set in the favorable month of August. 2) Hudler would be smart to sign a short-term deal, as regardless of where he is next year, hes likely to see more minutes with better linemates. Even in Detroit, the Wings will have to cut someone up front to make room for Hudler/Hossa. And as we've seen with the better RFAs, those offer-sheets usally come in the form of long-term deals.

Good explanation. Thanks YG.

[blikst 1]

Re. Bolded: Really?

Agree with everything else. In 2 years Hudler may have eclisped Zetterberg, let alone Franzen

If that's true we'll probably won't be able to keep him anyway.

[Dabura 12,232]

Every step along the way, it is assumed Hudler will not meet the challange - It was assumed that in the Czech league (which he ended up leading), it was assumed that in the AHL, where the rink was smaller, and the players were bigger, faster and more physical (and he led the league and set a franchise record in assists for the Griffins), it was assumed that for the NHL (where he has done nothing but produce and improve) and it is assumed he will never produce with top line minutes -- well he got those minutes last night (Over 18 minutes - by far the most he has ever had) and he looked flat-out awesome - including scoring a goal-scorer's goal.

Heartwarming Disney movie waiting to happen.

[Guest lilja4mvp]

st louis comparisons?

let me know when hudler can skate like st louis.

[blikst 1]

No, I claimed that if he were Franzen's size and strength while still retaining his own skill level in all other areas he would be a better player than Jagr because of the following. Hudler is a better defensive player than Jagr ever was, better on faceoffs than Jagr ever was, a legitimate elite playmaker, and has a very good shot. He is a good skater. I claimed that he would be Jagr, but a better defensive player and better on faceoffs. You don't realize how skilled Hudler is, do you?

I'm not exaggerating Hudler; you're underestimating Hudler.

If you think he is as skilled as Jagr, you are exaggerating.

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

let me know when hudler can skate like st louis.

Yes, YG was obviously comparing skating ability when he mentioned the diminutive St. Louis.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

st louis comparisons?

let me know when hudler can skate like st louis.

Let me know when St. Louis can be productive with 13.5 minutes a game.

[clutchngrab 12]

Mickey seems to like Hudler almost as much as he hates the officials. Thats good enough for me.

[therock48880 14]

The fact this conversation is even taking place is a testament to the improvement Hudler has shown this year. However, in the playoffs, there's no doubt in my mind that Franzen is my choice. Playoffs, as a rule, aren't about power plays and a lot of Hudler's success has come on the power play.

I don't really think this will become a problem, though. With him being restricted, I can't imagine anyone signing him to a contract that Detroit wouldn't be willing to match. If they did, they'd have to give up too many draft picks. I'd go the arbitration route with him.

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

Playoffs, as a rule, aren't about power plays and a lot of Hudler's success has come on the power play.

What? Power plays are as important in the playoffs as they are in any other hockey game.

EDIT: Hudler's 50/50 with ES vs PP points, and while the average in the league's top scoring tends to be closer to two-thirds ES scoring, he still has plenty of company in the PP-performer range. What's more, while Hudler receives less PP time than most of the league's top scorers, a greater proportion of his time is spent on the PP than most, potentially inflating his PP vs ES points ratio.

Edited February 13, 2009 by Heroes of Hockeytown

[GoWings1905 2,694]

The fact this conversation is even taking place is a testament to the improvement Hudler has shown this year. However, in the playoffs, there's no doubt in my mind that Franzen is my choice. Playoffs, as a rule, aren't about power plays and a lot of Hudler's success has come on the power play.

I don't really think this will become a problem, though. With him being restricted, I can't imagine anyone signing him to a contract that Detroit wouldn't be willing to match. If they did, they'd have to give up too many draft picks. I'd go the arbitration route with him.

Hudler also played at even strength on a line with Helm and McCarty throughout the playoffs. Should we really hold that against him for only producing on the power play?

[egroen 384]

Hudler also played at even strength on a line with Helm and McCarty throughout the playoffs. Should we really hold that against him for only producing on the power play?

And that assumption is even false.

Last year in the playoffs, Hudler scored

3g 5a 8pts at even strength

2g 4a 6pts on the power play

[dawings1905 2]

have lurked on different Redwings forums for about 4 years, been a fan since 1991, but never took the time to sign up for an account. I have read lots of interesting things on these forums, but finally decided I would take the time to sign up and put my 2 cents in. The who is the better player argument between Hudler and Franzen is debatable. Has anyone considered looking a little deeper than that. Such as who is more replaceable/irreplaceable? Here is what I mean by this..... Do the wings have more players in the mold of Huds or Franzen? Which players skill sets/size/speed/chemistry/ piece to the team puzzle is more easily replaced. I like both players and wish we could keep both, but the reality is it probably won't happen. I think you have to look at it from the perspective of which piece to the puzzle is more easily replaced. It seems to me the Wings have a lot of young kids with the similar capabilities/size/ability/speed/vision (overall skill set) that are closer to Huds. How many young guys do we have down in GR with Franzens overall skill set? Huds very well may be the better player, but I truely believe that Franzen is more difficult to replace. True Power Forwards are hard to come by. That being said it sure would be cool if Kenny could perform a miracle. Just my 2 cents.

Not saying either could be immediately or easily replaced. I just think we have players more suited to replace Huds, than Franzen

Sorry, looks like this is being discussed in two different threads. Wasn't sure which one to post this in so I did both.

[therock48880 14]

Hudler also played at even strength on a line with Helm and McCarty throughout the playoffs. Should we really hold that against him for only producing on the power play?

I'm not holding anything against anyone. I'm just saying that during the playoffs, when games become more physical and there are less penalties, I'd rather have Franzen. That's nothing against Hudler. Those pointing out Hudler's stats can relax, I'm not saying anything negative about him. Franzen had 18 points in 16 games in last year's playoffs. Realistically, I didn't think he was 100% in the SCF either so those numbers are a little skewed imo.

Once again, Hudler supporters, I'm not slamming Hudler in any way. I love how he's playing.

[Wingsfan72 198]

Franzen IS a freakin BEAST when playoff time comes around. But Huds is pretty successful with limited ice time.

...its a tough call for me

...but im gonna have to say Franzen is better.

I have always had a sneaking suspicion that Hudler would go to another team in one way or another...i always picture him going to the kings for some reason...but anyway, they would probably pump him full of ice time and this time next season there are going to be a million blogs about how Holland was an idiot for letting him go.

The same would happen if Franzen was let go...its just the way things work.

But I still stand by my opinion that if it comes down to it Franze should be the one the wings sign.

[egroen 384]

I am just hoping Holland trades Filppula if it is possible to keep them both.

[Dabura 12,232]

have lurked on different Redwings forums for about 4 years, been a fan since 1991, but never took the time to sign up for an account. I have read lots of interesting things on these forums, but finally decided I would take the time to sign up and put my 2 cents in. The who is the better player argument between Hudler and Franzen is debatable. Has anyone considered looking a little deeper than that. Such as who is more replaceable/irreplaceable? Here is what I mean by this..... Do the wings have more players in the mold of Huds or Franzen? Which players skill sets/size/speed/chemistry/ piece to the team puzzle is more easily replaced. I like both players and wish we could keep both, but the reality is it probably won't happen. I think you have to look at it from the perspective of which piece to the puzzle is more easily replaced. It seems to me the Wings have a lot of young kids with the similar capabilities/size/ability/speed/vision (overall skill set) that are closer to Huds. How many young guys do we have down in GR with Franzens overall skill set? Huds very well may be the better player, but I truely believe that Franzen is more difficult to replace. True Power Forwards are hard to come by. That being said it sure would be cool if Kenny could perform a miracle. Just my 2 cents.

Not saying either could be immediately or easily replaced. I just think we have players more suited to replace Huds, than Franzen

Agreed. While I'm not sure I'd call Franzen a bona fide power forward, the Wings would indeed have more difficulty replacing Mule than they would Hudler, imo.

It's going to come down to money, though. If Mule decides to price himself out, then...

[eva unit zero 271]

have lurked on different Redwings forums for about 4 years, been a fan since 1991, but never took the time to sign up for an account. I have read lots of interesting things on these forums, but finally decided I would take the time to sign up and put my 2 cents in. The who is the better player argument between Hudler and Franzen is debatable. Has anyone considered looking a little deeper than that. Such as who is more replaceable/irreplaceable? Here is what I mean by this..... Do the wings have more players in the mold of Huds or Franzen? Which players skill sets/size/speed/chemistry/ piece to the team puzzle is more easily replaced. I like both players and wish we could keep both, but the reality is it probably won't happen. I think you have to look at it from the perspective of which piece to the puzzle is more easily replaced. It seems to me the Wings have a lot of young kids with the similar capabilities/size/ability/speed/vision (overall skill set) that are closer to Huds. How many young guys do we have down in GR with Franzens overall skill set? Huds very well may be the better player, but I truely believe that Franzen is more difficult to replace. True Power Forwards are hard to come by. That being said it sure would be cool if Kenny could perform a miracle. Just my 2 cents.

Not saying either could be immediately or easily replaced. I just think we have players more suited to replace Huds, than Franzen

Sorry, looks like this is being discussed in two different threads. Wasn't sure which one to post this in so I did both.

Franzen didn't become a "power forward" until he was nearly 30 and was placed on a line with Pavel Datsyuk. Hate to break it to you, but the Wings could take a big-bodied young forward with a decent skating and puck skills and put him on Dats' wing and they'd suddenly have a 'bonafide power forward' like Franzen. After all, that's what happened with Johan.

Franzen would be a third or fourth line defensive grinder on most teams because they wouldn't have even looked at him as a goal scorer. By comparison, Hudler was considered the most purely skilled center in his draft going into it.

[Dabura 12,232]

the Wings could take a big-bodied young forward with a decent skating and puck skills and put him on Dats' wing and they'd suddenly have a 'bonafide power forward' like Franzen. After all, that's what happened with Johan.

Hudler was considered the most purely skilled center in his draft going into it.

Well gee, I guess that solves our problem. Bye, Johan!

[Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA]

Marty St. Louis was also waived in his early career cause he was too small. Same with Steve Sullivan -waived because he was "too small." Yet both these guys will go down as having twice the careers that Franzen ever did. Ironically, both also had decent production at a young age, but still not even as good as Hudler. Such is the irony of small players in the NHL. Maybe we should learn a little lesson from history. Heres some graphic evidence of what I mean:

Hudler is 25. At 24/25, St. Louis put up 18 points in 56 games, and spent a fair amount of time in the AHL that year. At 25/26, St. Louis put up 40 points in 78 games - 5 points fewer than Hudler has now in 23 more games being 1 year older than Hudler is now. At 26/27, St. Louis put up 35 points in 53 games - 10 points fewer than Hudler has now in 2 fewer games, despite being 2 years older at the time. It wasn't until St. Louis was 27/28 that he put up 70 points in 82 games. Hudler is currently on pace for 67 points in an 82 game span. So essentially, Hudler is where St. Louis was 3 years sooner. During St. Louis 70 point campaign, he was seeing 19:31 in ice time nonetheless. At Hudler's scoring rate this year, with the ice time St. Louis was getting when he scored 70 points, Hudler would ended this season with 97 points.

And this may be my all time favorite statistic: Martin St. Louis scored 94 points in 2003-2004, enough to win him the Art Ross that year. At the time, St. Louis played 1689 minutes, meaning he scored at a rate of one point per every 17.9 minutes. Hudlers scoring rate? 1 point per every 16.4 minutes. Had Hudler been in St. Louis shoes, playing 19:31 per game in Tampa, he could've hypothetically put up 102 points- as a 25 year old, no less. Not as a 29 year old in the midst of his prime.

Now, I'm not saying we should bank on hypotheticals. But what I am saying is St. Louis spent the majority of his years being written off because hes small, which seems to be the thing that people cant get past on this board when discussing Hudler. Like it or not, Hudler has loads of offensive talent that could put him in the elite category if given the chance, just as the case was with St. Louis, once he finally got his chance. St. Louis went undrafted and was signed and then waived by the Calgary Flames. I wonder if the Flames would like St. Louis on their team now? But I'm sure the Wings will find out how that feels if/when they let Hudler go to a team that gives him 16-18 minutes a game and 85 points on the season.

Oh, and one more thing. Because I know the "well theres no way to know if he'll still put up good numbers with more minutes" argument is going to come up.

With his current ice time, Hudler scores at a rate of 67 points per season.

In games with 15+ minutes, Hudler scores at a rate of 70 points per season.

In games with 16+ minutes, Hudler scores at a rate of 73 points per season.

I've noticed a common trend with Hudler advocates... they all know what they're talking about. It is no coincidence that Norris nick, Eva, and you all praise Hudler. Thank you for takign the time to do this, seriously makes my life on here easier.

Hudler, at best, will never be more than the 3rd best forward on this team - Hank and Datsyuk will be here throughout Hudler's peak and prime. Moreover, this is an analysis based on Detroit retaining Hossa and X player, the argument being for Hudler to be that X player. If Hossa and Hudler are the "chosen two", youre basically looking at Hudler being paired up with Hossa next year. Considering Hudler's playmaking/passing skills, there isn't a more ideal coupling than Hossa and Hudler. With the focus on the Eurotwins being primary, and the primary target on the 2nd line being Hossa, Hudler would flourish, and his value/production ratio if Hudler were to sign a reasonable 1-2 year deal at 2.5-3M per would be absolutely phenomenal, which is precisely the sort of thing the Wings need until Lidstrom's salary comes off the books.

To quell your fears about size and grit, GMR, just think: Hudler @ 2.8M + Neil @ 1.2M > Franzen @ 4M

While I think Hudler may eventually pass Zetterberg in pure point production, this is one of the most knoweldge and hought laden posts I've read recently.

[2probert4 8]

If you think he is as skilled as Jagr, you are exaggerating.

he's known for that, when he takes a liking to a player, then that player becomes Superman.

[eva unit zero 271]

he's known for that, when he takes a liking to a player, then that player becomes Superman.

Let's look at who has similar even strength ice time and power play ice time to Hudler, and what scoring output they have. Highlighted in red are those who Hudler scored at a higher points per minute rate than; likely it's not limited to just those players I've listed.

Even Strength TOI/Scoring

(187) Nikolai Kulemin 591:37 / 8g-5a-13pt

(188) Pavol Demitra 591:19 / 12g-11a-23pt

(189) Tom Kostopoulos 590:01 / 5g-9a-14pt

(190) Maxime Talbot 590:00 / 5g-6a-11pt

(191) Doug Weight 589:38 / 4g-10a-14pt

(192) Todd Fedoruk 585:26 / 5g-3a-8pt

(193) Mason Raymond 584:10 / 5g-5a-10pt

(194) Dustin Byfuglien 582:10 / 6g-6a-12pt

(195) Robert Lang 581:04 / 9g-11a-20pt

(196) Adam Mair 580:46 / 7g-8a-15pt

(197) Jiri Hudler 580:01 / 13g-11a-24pt (.041 points/minute at even strength)

(187) Scottie Upshall 577:41 / 4g-11a-15pt

(188) Robert Zednik 577:22 / 10g-10a-20pt

(189) Jay Pandolfo 572:01 / 3g-5a-8pt

(190) Jerred Smithson 570:50 / 3g-6a-9pt

(191) Kyle Calder 570:03 / 5g-12a-17pt

(192) Trent Hunter 568:03 / 9g-11a-20pt

(193) Chuck Kobasew 564:57 / 9g-13a-22pt

(194) Chris Thorburn 564:04 / 6g-5a-11pt

(195) Taylor Pyatt 564:02 / 7g-6a-13pt

(196) David Moss 563:26 / 9g-9a-18pt

Power Play TOI/Scoring

(64) Corey Perry 186:56 / 7g-12a-19pt

(65) Pavel Datsyuk 185:50 / 10g-14a-24pt (.129 points/minute on power play)

(66) Bryan Little 181:32 / 7g-7a-14pt

(67) Mark Recchi 181:15 / 2g-14a-16pt

(68) Stephen Weiss 180:05 / 3g-11a-14pt

(69) Patrik Berglund 178:02 / 6g-11a-17pt

(70) Marian Hossa 177:36 / 9g-12a-21pt

(71) Travis Zajac 175:52 / 3g-7a-10pt

(72) Pierre-Marc Bouchard 175:13 /

(73) Trent Hunter 174:28 / 5g-5a-10pt

(74) Jiri Hudler 173:01 / 5g-17a-22pt (.127 points/minute on power play)

(75) Alexander Frolov 172:48 / 9g-7a-16pt

(76) Peter Mueller 172:14 / 5g-5a-10pt

(77) Miroslav Satan 171:53 / 6g-4a-10pt

(78) Henrik Zetterberg 171:22 / 7g-13a-20pt

(79) Nathan Horton 171:18 / 3g-7a-10pt

(80) Rod Brind'Amour 171:01 / 3g-11a-14pt

(81) Jamie Langenbrunner 170:48 / 2g-8a-10pt

(82) Tomas Plekanec 170:38 / 2g-4a-6pt

(83) Andrei Kostitsyn 168:15 / 5g-6a-11pt

(84) Nikolai Zherdev 165:37 / 4g-6a-10pt

Notable names:

ES: Demitra, Lang, Zednik, Hunter, Kobasew.

PP: Perry, Datsyuk, Hossa, Zetterberg. Also of note is that Hunter plays similar time again but is FAR less productive.

Datsyuk, on the PP, is the only player to play similar minutes and outproduce Hudler. This is only slightly.

Interesting information, don't you think?

Edited February 14, 2009 by eva unit zero