2/20 GDT: Anaheim Ducks at Red Wings

[Z and D for the C 712]

NOW that you bring him up....He was responsible for losing the puck at least four times tonight. Twice with his stupid-ass drop passes to NO one, and twice because it was merely taken away from him with very little effort. I say that even acknowledging that the fourth one still resulted in (Franzen?) a goal. And he actually did shoot one toward the goal tonight.

And Hossa did not have his usual good night tonight and I'm guessing it was partly because of Filppula. IF Flip can't play with Hossa, WHO THE HELL CAN HE PLAY WITH? Hell, even I could score on Hossa's line. OK, so that's a big fat lie, but HE DRIVES ME NUTS!!!

The second line with flip and hossa before franzen came back was awesome, now that franzen is on there it's tame.

Edited February 21, 2009 by Z and D for the C

[clutchngrab 12]

I like Jiri with Franzen and Hossa. Flip is a good player, but just seems more like 3rd line to me than 2nd. Hudler is not as versatile as Flip, but his weaknesses can be covered by the D of Hossa and Franzen. It almost pains me to say that, because I was a huge Flip advocate early on. I remember posting that I thought he could be the next Z, but unfortunately, he's decided not to develop his shot. For that, on this team, he deserves 3rd line.

[clutchngrab 12]

BTW, tonight I think we can safely say our goalie outplayed the other teams goalie.

[eva unit zero 271]

NOW that you bring him up....He was responsible for losing the puck at least four times tonight. Twice with his stupid-ass drop passes to NO one, and twice because it was merely taken away from him with very little effort. I say that even acknowledging that the fourth one still resulted in (Franzen?) a goal. And he actually did shoot one toward the goal tonight.

And Hossa did not have his usual good night tonight and I'm guessing it was partly because of Filppula. IF Flip can't play with Hossa, WHO THE HELL CAN HE PLAY WITH? Hell, even I could score on Hossa's line. OK, so that's a big fat lie, but HE DRIVES ME NUTS!!!

I have been saying it since TRAINING CAMP.

If DZH is the first line, then the second line should be Hossa on the right side, centered by HUDLER, with Franzen or Cleary on the left side. That has been made even more obvious when Rex and Hossa have actually had the opportunity to play together.

Now everybody, honestly tell me.

Franzen/Hudler/Hossa or Cleary/Hudler/Hossa. How many teams in the NHL is that better than the current first line? At least half. Possibly as many as 25. Anyone disagree with the assessment of 15-25? And that still leaves Cleary/Filppula/Samuelsson or Franzen/Filppula/Samuelsson as the third line, which is probably a better fit for Flip ANYWAY. FFS had sick chemistry during the postseason last year, but Cleary probably would be better used on the third line.

[kylee 727]

I like Jiri with Franzen and Hossa. Flip is a good player, but just seems more like 3rd line to me than 2nd. Hudler is not as versatile as Flip, but his weaknesses can be covered by the D of Hossa and Franzen. It almost pains me to say that, because I was a huge Flip advocate early on. I remember posting that I thought he could be the next Z, but unfortunately, he's decided not to develop his shot. For that, on this team, he deserves 3rd line.

i used to like him, he had a nice rookie season, a few decent playoff performances, but now what, 28 games since he has scored a goal? albeit jiri hudler had a very similar goal drought last year (it went on something like 25 games) until he finally broke out of his slump but for whatever reason Jiri seems to be the type of player that the puck just seems to come to him, and he cashes in. Flip just looks easily knocked off the puck, and easily contained right now. its never easy to judge a player based on a slump during a season but the appeal to trade away Flip in order to have more money to work with to possibly sign franzen, hossa, and hudler is quite alluring.

[Z and D for the C 712]

but now what, 28 games since he has scored a goal?

Try...14. Still a long time but not 28 games...

And if you think flip is easily knocked off the puck you simply don't watch the games. Period. Flip is one of the HARDEST to knock off the puck.

I think Franzen and Hossa should never be on the same line since Franzen doesn't do anything and it's just a bad combination. For this year the ideal lines I think would be:

ZDH

Leino Flip hossa

franzen huds sammy

cleary draper kopy/maltby

Taking eva's argument, we have a 2nd line that could be other team's 1st and a 3rd that could be other teams 2nd.

Edited February 21, 2009 by Z and D for the C

[Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA]

NOW that you bring him up....He was responsible for losing the puck at least four times tonight. Twice with his stupid-ass drop passes to NO one, and twice because it was merely taken away from him with very little effort. I say that even acknowledging that the fourth one still resulted in (Franzen?) a goal. And he actually did shoot one toward the goal tonight.

And Hossa did not have his usual good night tonight and I'm guessing it was partly because of Filppula. IF Flip can't play with Hossa, WHO THE HELL CAN HE PLAY WITH? Hell, even I could score on Hossa's line. OK, so that's a big fat lie, but HE DRIVES ME NUTS!!!

Despite what oppinionaited idiots on this site say, Flip is not currently a good player.

[P. Marlowe 748]

Hudler hasn't played center in a long time. Maybe he isn't good at faceoffs. For the second line it's either Franzén or Filppula in the middle.

[kylee 727]

Try...14. Still a long time but not 28 games...

And if you think flip is easily knocked off the puck you simply don't watch the games. Period. Flip is one of the HARDEST to knock off the puck.

meh i dont agree with you but that's not really the point here. He isnt producing the way we all hoped for, and he's obviously snake bitten.

[Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA]

Try...14. Still a long time but not 28 games...

And if you think flip is easily knocked off the puck you simply don't watch the games. Period. Flip is one of the HARDEST to knock off the puck.

I think Franzen and Hossa should never be on the same line since Franzen doesn't do anything and it's just a bad combination. For this year the ideal lines I think would be:

ZDH

Leino Flip hossa

franzen huds sammy

cleary draper kopy/maltby

Taking eva's argument, we have a 2nd line that could be other team's 1st and a 3rd that could be other teams 2nd.

It's not insane to think that the 3rd line would be better than the 2nd.

[Z and D for the C 712]

Despite what oppinionaited idiots on this site say, Flip is not currently a good player.

Wow you make such a good argument. I can't even find any holes in your logic to argue against! Can I shine your shoes?!? How naive of me to think that disagreeing with you doesn't actually make someone an opinionated idiot! Where I was this whole time? Can you teach me how to be objective, since the things you ever say couldn't possibly ever have any subjectivity at all?

Edited February 21, 2009 by Z and D for the C

[Z and D for the C 712]

meh i dont agree with you but that's not really the point here. He isnt producing the way we all hoped for, and he's obviously snake bitten.

10 points in the last 12 games.

And he's STILL not getting PP time, like Hudler is. Like Franzen is.

Edited February 21, 2009 by Z and D for the C

[P. Marlowe 748]

Leave it to LGW to fight over one player after a good win and 8-1-1 streak. Red Wings are currently one point behing Sharks and two points behind Bruins.

[Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA]

Wow you make such a good argument. I can't even find any holes in your logic to argue against! Can I shine your shoes?!? How naive of me to think that disagreeing with you doesn't actually make someone an opinionated idiot! Where I was this whole time? Can you teach me how to be objective, since the things you ever say couldn't possibly ever have any subjectivity at all?

1 goal in 20+ games.

9th in points per minute

worst faceoff %

bad shooting %age

Wow 10 points in 12 games (at least 5 of them have been secondary assits for Hossa)

[j.hoop 64]

did anyone notice how many times meech denied salami a scoring chance?? he must have been in fits knowing a forward/defensemen stripped him so many times!!

[eva unit zero 271]

i used to like him, he had a nice rookie season, a few decent playoff performances, but now what, 28 games since he has scored a goal? albeit jiri hudler had a very similar goal drought last year (it went on something like 25 games) until he finally broke out of his slump but for whatever reason Jiri seems to be the type of player that the puck just seems to come to him, and he cashes in. Flip just looks easily knocked off the puck, and easily contained right now. its never easy to judge a player based on a slump during a season but the appeal to trade away Flip in order to have more money to work with to possibly sign franzen, hossa, and hudler is quite alluring.

Hudler's goal drought was 21 games. Flip's has, so far, only gone on 15 games and has been much better in other areas, albeit that could be credited to the fact he has been playing primarily on Hossa's line and Hossa has been a monster.

But here are some raw numbers regarding those droughts.

Filppula during slump in 2008-09:

15GP, 0-10-10, +5, 4PIM, 2PPA, 21SOG, 0%

Filppula during 2008-09 aside from slump:

44GP, 6-14-20, +6, 28PIM, 61SOG, 9.8%

Hudler during slump in 2007-08:

21GP, 0-5-5, -3, 6PIM, 4PPA, 22SOG, 0%

Hudler during 2007-08 aside from slump:

60GP, 13-24-37, +8, 20PIM, 3PPG, 8PPA, 2GW, 109SOG, 11.9%

As you can see, Flip is still posting quite a few assists and solid +/- numbers playing with Hossa and Franzen...granted, Hossa and Franzen have scored a few goals that have been individual efforts which have earned assists and pluses for Flip.

Now, let's look at what the stats would be like if the two had maintained their pace from the 'non-slump' section through the slump games.

Hudler 2007-08:

81GP, 18-32-50, +11, 28PIM, 4PPG, 11PPA, 3GW, 147SOG, 12.2%

Filppula 2008-09

59GP, 8-19-27, +13, 38PIM, 82SOG, 9.8%

And if Flip had played Hudler's 81 GP:

81GP, 11-26-37, +18, 52PIM, 113SOG, 9.7%

There are probably several factors involved, such as the fact that Filppula has been playing on the PP recently, but if you base his production off the time not considered a 'slump' during this season, he actually has slightly more goals but slightly fewer points. I think Filppula's offense is a secondary concern and his primary role should be shutting down opposing offensive forwards, and that he belongs on the third line until he can start consistently creating offensive chances of his own accord, which is something he does not typically do, but I don't know how many here agree with me.

[redwing_sparty 0]

seriously, flip seem completely unformtable. he never shoots. doesnt square up with the goalie. he never once tonight looked like he was thinkin shoot first pass second. i don;t think he neccessarily has a poor game, he did work the puck nicely at times, but if all he's gonna be is a set up man, then screw it. we dont need to pay 3 mil for someone to pass to hossa.

[Z and D for the C 712]

For each of flip's "did-nothing" assists, he's had at least one great set up pass. Look at Franzen's goal the other night. And a game or two before that he had to great passes which resulted in goals.

And it's not like secondary assists only go on the record for Valtteri Filppula. Hudler, and every player in this team and league have undoubtedly just as many as Flip.

That said...

at least 5 of them have been secondary assits for Hossa

That is more biased (and not only that but easily false) than anything that's been said. You can say things like that about any player.

[Z and D for the C 712]

Leave it to LGW to fight over one player after a good win and 8-1-1 streak. Red Wings are currently one point behing Sharks and two points behind Bruins.

At least it's not goalies.

[Z and D for the C 712]

he never shoots. doesnt square up with the goalie.

Flip led the wings, except for zetterberg (who he tied) and sammy (who have 5) in shots tonight.

And it's not like datsyuk or hudler never had problems with shooting the puck.

[eva unit zero 271]

10 points in the last 12 games.

And he's STILL not getting PP time, like Hudler is. Like Franzen is.

Hudler has:

10 points in the last 10 games. (More than Zetterberg)

9 points in the last 8 games.

8 points in the last 7 games.

6 points in the last five games.

3 goals in the last 4 games.

Are you sure Filppula should be on the PP over Hudler?

In the last ten games, if you consider ice time, he's considerably outscored Hossa and Zetterberg, and is at least comparable if not outperforming the incredibly hot Datsyuk. But yeah, Filppula, whose assists that have come mostly from Hossa's performance

should put Filppula above Hudler on the PP.

As far as Franzen, he's been scoring at least as well as Filppula and is far better at creating offense or creating havoc in front of the net. Filppula is ok on the PP, but the top six forwards we have on the units are all much better choices because they are all significantly more offensively skilled at this point;

Datsyuk, Hudler, Zetterberg, and Hossa are all better passers/playmakers. Flip is a better playmaker than Franzen and Homer.

Zetterberg, Hossa, Datsyuk, Franzen, Holmstrom, and Hudler all have better shots and use them better.

Franzen and Holmstrom, and possibly more are better at camping out and screening the goaltender.

So every single forward on the top two PP units does at least two of the three main PP duties of a forward better than Flip. Someone please explain how Flip should be on the PP based on this information?

Edited February 21, 2009 by eva unit zero

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Intriguing...Filppula got the MOST of all even strength ice time tonight. And he got more ice time than Datsyuk did.

[Z and D for the C 712]

Hudler has:

10 points in the last 10 games. (More than Zetterberg)

9 points in the last 8 games.

8 points in the last 7 games.

6 points in the last five games.

3 goals in the last 4 games.

Are you sure Filppula should be on the PP over Hudler?

In the last ten games, Huder has outscored Zetterberg, and if you consider ice time, he's considerably outscored Hossa, and is at least comparable if not outperforming the incredibly hot Datsyuk. But yeah, Filppula, whose secondary assists that have come mostly from Hossa's performance

should put Filppula above Hudler on the PP.

As far as Franzen, he's been scoring just as well as Filppula and is far better at creating offense or creating havoc in front of the net. Filppula is ok on the PP, but the top six forwards we have on the units are all much better choices.

Z has 12 points in his last 10, hudler as 9 in his last ten. Not sure where you're getting your numbers.

I'm not saying Flip should get PP time over flip. I'm saying flip is matching hudler's production without PP time. That's all.

[clutchngrab 12]

Try...14. Still a long time but not 28 games...

And if you think flip is easily knocked off the puck you simply don't watch the games. Period. Flip is one of the HARDEST to knock off the puck.

I think Franzen and Hossa should never be on the same line since Franzen doesn't do anything and it's just a bad combination. For this year the ideal lines I think would be:

ZDH

Leino Flip hossa

franzen huds sammy

cleary draper kopy/maltby

Taking eva's argument, we have a 2nd line that could be other team's 1st and a 3rd that could be other teams 2nd.

I like the concept of 3 great lines, but I'm old school. Your best players get the best minutes and that should be lines 1 and 2 followed by 3, then 4. Obviously ZDH is one, though you could shuffle cleary or Franzen in for the H when tempo is needed. As a matter of fact, there is a strong argument for pairing Hossa with the other 2 as we wind down the stretch. After all, who didn't cream their jeans when Hossa got signed fantasizing about a ZD Hossa line come crunch time. Anyhow, Hossa and Franzen with a playmaker is line 2. I think that playmaker is Hudler over flip, because a 2nd line with 3 guys that will shoot makes life difficult. Plus Hudler just seems to be a puck magnet and gets to the right spot to score. With Franzen's net front and Hossa's dominance, I think that line could content for 1st line. So then what, I think Flip, Leino, Cleary and Helm have to play, followed by Draper and then meh Kopy, Maltby.

Anyhow, no matter how you slice it, enjoy this year because wings won't see riches like this at forward for who knows how long

Edited February 21, 2009 by clutchngrab

[Shaman 713]

Intriguing...Filppula got the MOST of all even strength ice time tonight. And he got more ice time than Datsyuk did.

It seems to me they could be showcasing him for a possible trade (or so I can dream)