Ericsson/Downey Up; Helm/Leino to GR

[Shaman 713]

If not for guys like Downey, Mac and Drake, this team wouldn't have even gotten to the Finals to play against Pittsburgh. The team's overall toughness was due in part to guys like Downey who the team fed off of for physical play all season. Otherwise, we'd have been as soft as pudding in the playoffs like in prior years. He was one of the catalysts for physical play.

You're just another one of these anti-enforcer people who point out stupid stats like Downey's -5 in the minors, disregarding the fact that our 4th line wishes right now that it could be at -5 on the season.

And don't tell me about taking roster spots from great players. Our 4th line has no skill on it right now. Kopecky has had his time to develop. Having balls is not something you can develop at his age at this point in his career.

It may be possible that your second post on this is was even more uniformed and ridiculous than your first. Please don't try a third post about Downey's uslessness, lest you embarass yourself further.

Too bad Drake is a gritty player, he was never an enforcer, look at how many fights he had and the number of penalties, would he defend himself? sure, which im all for. What im against is the thug on skates who doesn't hit, doesn't score, just takes penalties and fights. You never addressed any points I made, I mean you want to see the wings short handed more? Does taking a run at a player win games? I would be all for a gritty player who can score 40 points and drop them when the need comes. But Downey and McCarty both detract more from the line up by taking up a spot a more skilled player should have. Please instead of just saying im uniformed and ridiculous please use facts and not blanket statements.

As for the 4th line, hes fourth line AHL, he on his career has been in his own zone and it seems the wing's 4th line could use the oppiste right now, someone who is good on their side of center.

Edited March 2, 2009 by Shaman464

[redwing_sparty 0]

Since Downey IS fighting for a spot, or at least, being showcased for another team, I'm sure he's gonna bust his ass out there. And I'm just happy to see some more of Ericsson in a non-Preseason environment.

i wouldn't say downey is really fighting for a spot or that the wings are looking to trade him. basically no one wanted him at the start of the season and the wings offered him a spot in gr that he took just because he really had no other options.

[sureWhyNot 19]

i wouldn't say downey is really fighting for a spot or that the wings are looking to trade him. basically no one wanted him at the start of the season and the wings offered him a spot in gr that he took just because he really had no other options.

Bulls*** -- Get your facts straight. I am so tired of know nothings stating things as if they were true, when in all reality the statements are nothing more then the warped opinion of those posting them.

When Downey didn't make the Red Wings lineup at the beginning of the year he was set to retire -- Instead Yzerman, Holland, Babcock, etc talked him into staying. I don't know exactly what was said, but it is well documented that he was ready to hand him up and the RW management convinced him to do otherwise.

[Shaman 713]

You sir are downright silly in your arguments against Downey. Downey does not take dips*** penalties, I mean all you really need to do is look at the 56 games he played in a Red Wings uniform last year and you will see that what you are complaining is a complete farce. He never received an instigator penalty either, this means every time he received a FM the other team received a match penalty -- of course this means we were not short handed.

The one Red Wings game Downey played this year was hands down the most energetic game of the year -- the Joe was rocking playoff style, and the fans overwhelmingly voted Downey the player of the game. You may not like him, you may not understand why he is being brought up (actually you clearly do not understand), but that by no means makes you right.

Moreover could you do me a favor and show me a game that Helm has won for us this year? Doesn't that sound ridiculous? Of course it does, I am simply showing you how utterly incompetent you are coming across as. Truth be told, Downey rounds out the overall makeup of this team -- and whether you like it or not he is coming up.

I for one couldn't be happier with the decision. I absolutely love Leino, and am amped that he will be a regular in the lineup come playoff time. That however does not mean that I think that Downey has no place on our roster. I think he will bring a lot of energy and an aspect of hockey we haven't seen a whole lot of this year.

If you really want to nitpick stats then I would love for you to explain Downey's +/- of 0 last year. Now I know it isn't great, but it is very, very far from being able to label him a "liability" on the ice.

Hockey is more then just highlight reel goals, and trust me while I love them as much as anyone, I also recognize the fact with guys like Datsyuk upping his physical game and Hossa being forced to fight there comes a time when you need to bring in guys to watch over those who provide us with the very highlight reel goals I speak of.

I know it isn't completely the same, but for arguments sake can you also go ahead and tell me how much Dave Semetko hurt Gretzky and company in Edmonton? Or how much Kocur hurt us the years he was in the lineup and we won the cup, or even better, how much Downey and then McCarty hurt us last year (with Downey playing the majority of the regular season and Big Mac playing throughout the playoffs). If you can explain that to me then I will listen, if not then you should really keep your off base opinions, assumptions, and statements to yourself.

I never said Helm should be up over Downey, honestly I think Leino should be up over both of them, but for all that energy the Joe had, didnt the Wings lose that game anyway? Energy doesn't make up for the 2 things he does/is

#1 He makes it harder for Babcock to roll four good lines, guess what, the Wings are in back to back games this week and need to keep the top players rested so they can perform for both games. Where we could throw Helm in a 1-0 game and know he will play sound defensively, with Downey the wings will have to roll The Zetterberg or Datsuyk line.

#2 Penalties have killed the wings this year, you may not believe your golden enforcer ever takes untimely (what call dips***) penalties, but when your PK is 24th in the league, and penalty should be avoided like the plague. And when we do have a PK hes not going to be on the ice, ever. Meaning that now you have depend more on your stars and less on the role player that is benched to put him in for 5 mins of 'energy'

Edited March 2, 2009 by Shaman464

[Frozen-Man 144]

Maybe you should ask Lappy about that. I haven't seen anything even close to resembling a cheap shot from him since Downey beat his ass.

I don't care what Lappy has done since that game (although I really don't think he has changed his game one bit because of the fights with Downey) my post was in response to the statement "I'm not one to constantly say we need an enforcer but do you remember last year against Colorado?" The fact of the matter is in that game at that moment when it mattered Laperriere still laid the hit (which Lids said was not dirty but did get the elbow up so he deserved the 2 minute penalty) even though Downey was in the game. My point being Downey being in the game did not deter that hit even though people point to that as a reason to have Downey in the game.

The perfect argument in favor of enforcers was seen the other night in Montreal. San Jose was ALL OVER Montreal early in the game. Laraque and Shelley fight and BGL destroyed him. The place erupted, Montreal scored 3 straight and the Sharks disappeared.

Again, my argument is not against having an enforcer . . . it is against saying that DOWNEY is much of an enforcer or deterrence (however, great guy, great energy, great booster etc.). If we could get a Laraque or a Shelley that would be great but Downey is not even in the same realm as those guys as an enforcer - and using the Lappy/Downey fight as "proof" that he is doesn't make sense to me because Laperriere still got the elbow up on the Lidstrom hit - Downey didn't deter anything.

[chrisyo 1]

Too bad Drake is a gritty player, he was never an look at how many fights he had and the number of penalties, would he defend himself? sure, which im all for. What im against is the thug on skates who doesn't hit, doesn't score, just takes penalties and fights. You never addressed any points I made, I mean you want to see the wings short handed more? Does taking a run at a player win games? I would be all for a gritty player who can score 40 points and drop them when the need comes. But Downey and McCarty both detract more from the line up by taking up a spot a more skilled player should have. Please instead of just saying im uniformed and ridiculous please use facts and not blanket statements.

Wheres your facts that Downey is a thug on skates who doesn't hit? In his 1 game this season he had numerous hits. Are you saying Downey's penalty earlier this season was a stupid penalty? If you are saying that then as someone already said you are uninformed on how the sport works. Downey absolutely took the right penalty. He also took Barch off the ice with him.

How do Downey & Mac detract from the 4th line? The 4th line is the checking line. They are supposed to be on the 4th line while finesse players like Leino are supposed to be on the 3rd line. The Wings are taking advantage of other teams not playing the body. Come this last stretch of the season teams will be trying to dominate and intimidate the Wings. Guys like Mac, Downey & Ericsson will not allow that and that is why they are on the team and why enforcers and grinders are even in the league. It would be easy for a team to fill there roster with a bunch of finesse players from over in Europe and would make for a faster hockey and that goody too shoo s***. But there's a reason why teams don't do that....

because you don't win Stanley Cups by having the a bunch of guys afraid to muck it up in corners.

Your telling me the Wings couldn't go find a better skilled player in Russia then Draper, Holmstrom, Maltby, Cleary, Franzen? If you believe that again you are still uninformed. Calling up Downey does nothing but make this team better even at the expense of a fast, skilled player like Leino. The Wings have proved they can win with Downey in the lineup so he is clearly not a liability.

I'm not gonna argue this stuff though. You can have your own opinion but to say guys like Downey are a waste just make you look stupid in my eyes.

[redwing_sparty 0]

i think the tough thing about this team is they have so many extremely talented players that all can score. I don't think there is another team out there that has near the number of talented goal scorers the wings do. But that is where the other teams fill spots with big bodies who can fight and throw their weight around. The wings have so many great players, that you want to keep them all. Our 4th line which is where the "enforcers" are supposed to be is too old unfortuantely. I think they have played well lately but i'm not sure that this team really needs to look to their 4th line for scoreing. none of our d men fight either as we saw from the lilja debackle. and i guess u dont necessarily need fighters, but you need some one to back up our skilled guys and make sure that when an opposing player hits them, that one of our players hits him right back and twice as hard. We dont really have any players who can send a message with their physicallity.

I thought kronner was going to be that guy but he doesnt seem to have the killer instinct anymore if he ever did have it. Franzen also could throw his weight around a bit more but he seems to have gotten a liitle soft since he has become a great goal scorer. nothing agianst the guy.

[Carman 387]

Good to see them mix it up.

Tomorrow night is a huge night for the team.

[Shaman 713]

Wheres your facts that Downey is a thug on skates who doesn't hit? In his 1 game this season he had numerous hits. Are you saying Downey's penalty earlier this season was a stupid penalty? If you are saying that then as someone already said you are uninformed on how the sport works. Downey absolutely took the right penalty. He also took Barch off the ice with him.

How do Downey & Mac detract from the 4th line? The 4th line is the checking line. They are supposed to be on the 4th line while finesse players like Leino are supposed to be on the 3rd line. The Wings are taking advantage of other teams not playing the body. Come this last stretch of the season teams will be trying to dominate and intimidate the Wings. Guys like Mac, Downey & Ericsson will not allow that and that is why they are on the team and why enforcers and grinders are even in the league. It would be easy for a team to fill there roster with a bunch of finesse players from over in Europe and would make for a faster hockey and that goody too shoo s***. But there's a reason why teams don't do that....

because you don't win Stanley Cups by having the a bunch of guys afraid to muck it up in corners.

Your telling me the Wings couldn't go find a better skilled player in Russia then Draper, Holmstrom, Maltby, Cleary, Franzen? If you believe that again you are still uninformed. Calling up Downey does nothing but make this team better even at the expense of a fast, skilled player like Leino. The Wings have proved they can win with Downey in the lineup so he is clearly not a liability.

I'm not gonna argue this stuff though. You can have your own opinion but to say guys like Downey are a waste just make you look stupid in my eyes.

Because those players are as gritty as expensive toilet paper?

I wasnt talking about his penalties this year, Last year he had more than his fair share though, Hes a player from the Old NHL where things that he did would be great for that era, now in the era of the 'everythings a hook, hold, interference, etc' and the refs already love to put us a man down, we dont need it, he doesnt PK anyway, so instead of having helm who is can PK.

And to your 'afraid to goto the corners' comment, when was the last time you saw Hossa, Z, or D run from the corners?

My Ideal player I would add to the wings is McCarty from 97-00, he could fight, hit, and got 40 pts every season, thats what we need, a guy who can play good sound hockey and be gritty and drop them, not just a guy who is a boxer on skates

Edited March 2, 2009 by Shaman464

[redwing_sparty 0]

Bulls*** -- Get your facts straight. I am so tired of know nothings stating things as if they were true, when in all reality the statements are nothing more then the warped opinion of those posting them.

When Downey didn't make the Red Wings lineup at the beginning of the year he was set to retire -- Instead Yzerman, Holland, Babcock, etc talked him into staying. I don't know exactly what was said, but it is well documented that he was ready to hand him up and the RW management convinced him to do otherwise.

um yah he was ready to retire because his career really wasn't going anywhere. he wasn;t getting any interest from other clubs.

and u really need to cool the f*** down. i dont think you've made one post since you joined in which you didn't go nuts on someone else's post. constructive criticism is appreciated. we;re all wings fans, you don't have call everyone you disagree with a dumbass.

[AtomicPunk 296]

I dont want Lappy here because then we will have lots of posts of people calling him Lappy and I do not want to hear Lappy's name anymore.

[Frozen-Man 144]

um yah he was ready to retire because his career really wasn't going anywhere. he wasn;t getting any interest from other clubs.

and u really need to cool the f*** down. i dont think you've made one post since you joined in which you didn't go nuts on someone else's post. constructive criticism is appreciated. we;re all wings fans, you don't have call everyone you disagree with a dumbass.

Edited March 2, 2009 by Frozen-Man

[jjd06e 10]

Downey's 4 minutes of ice time in his only game impressed me more then any of Leino's goals.

wow

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

I don't care what Lappy has done since that game (although I really don't think he has changed his game one bit because of the fights with Downey) my post was in response to the statement "I'm not one to constantly say we need an enforcer but do you remember last year against Colorado?" The fact of the matter is in that game at that moment when it mattered Laperriere still laid the hit (which Lids said was not dirty but did get the elbow up so he deserved the 2 minute penalty) even though Downey was in the game. My point being Downey being in the game did not deter that hit even though people point to that as a reason to have Downey in the game.

Again, my argument is not against having an enforcer . . . it is against saying that DOWNEY is much of an enforcer or deterrence (however, great guy, great energy, great booster etc.). If we could get a Laraque or a Shelley that would be great but Downey is not even in the same realm as those guys as an enforcer - and using the Lappy/Downey fight as "proof" that he is doesn't make sense to me because Laperriere still got the elbow up on the Lidstrom hit - Downey didn't deter anything.

Shelley is not that much a better fighter than Downey. Both are past their prime.

Laraque is not a good enforcer. He hardly ever fights.

Because those players are as gritty as expensive toilet paper?

I wasnt talking about his penalties this year, Last year he had more than his fair share though, Hes a player from the Old NHL where things that he did would be great for that era, now in the era of the 'everythings a hook, hold, interference, etc' and the refs already love to put us a man down, we dont need it, he doesnt PK anyway, so instead of having helm who is can PK.

And to your 'afraid to goto the corners' comment, when was the last time you saw Hossa, Z, or D run from the corners?

My Ideal player I would add to the wings is McCarty from 97-00, he could fight, hit, and got 40 pts every season, thats what we need, a guy who can play good sound hockey and be gritty and drop them, not just a guy who is a boxer on skates

Downey didn't do anything detrimental last year in his own zone or in taking stupid penalties, but you've gone on for 4 pages telling us all about what a huge liability Downey will be.

Apparently you have some huge dislike for enforcers who take stupid penalties, and that's fine. However, it isn't fair to throw Downey in there, because I haven't seen him do any such thing in Detroit.

You just have some paranoia about enforcers, and you'll probably be the first person screaming with joy if Downey drops the gloves in his next game. That's just how it works here on LGW.

[Carman 387]

I like Downey. But being fair his effort in GR this season is concerning to me. That said, you know what your going to get with Downey and he knows his role as good as anyone else in the league. Look foward to what he can give us.

[Doggy 130]

I hope Downey kicks some ass.

[Shaman 713]

Shelley is not that much a better fighter than Downey. Both are past their prime.

Laraque is not a good enforcer. He hardly ever fights.

Downey didn't do anything detrimental last year in his own zone or in taking stupid penalties, but you've gone on for 4 pages telling us all about what a huge liability Downey will be.

Apparently you have some huge dislike for enforcers who take stupid penalties, and that's fine. However, it isn't fair to throw Downey in there, because I haven't seen him do any such thing in Detroit.

You just have some paranoia about enforcers, and you'll probably be the first person screaming with joy if Downey drops the gloves in his next game. That's just how it works here on LGW.

The straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern:

1. Person A has position X.

2. Person B ignores X and instead presents position Y.

Y is a distorted version of X and can be set up in several ways, including:

3. Inventing a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs which are then criticized, implying that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.

4. Person B attacks position Y, concluding that X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious, because attacking a distorted version of a position fails to constitute an attack on the actual position.

Well, all i can tell you is I am not anti gritty player who can drop the gloves, I am just against downey who all he can do is drop the gloves you never ever have addressed the fact he doesnt PK, he only plays 5 mins a night and that it inhibits babcock's ability to role 4 lines, just one straw man after another.

Edited March 2, 2009 by Shaman464

[Frozen-Man 144]

Shelley is not that much a better fighter than Downey. Both are past their prime.

I disagree, I think Shelley is better but in fairness I haven't seen Downey fight this year as he has hardly been up then NHL.

Laraque is not a good enforcer. He hardly ever fights.

He has as many fights in the NHL as Downey has in the AHL (only 2 since Dec. 21st) and garners much more respect as an enforcer. Again, not a big knock on Downey as a teammate or player I just don't think he fills the role of enforcer much any more. The Griffins are dead last in the AHL with 18 fights (the Admirals have 103). Also, not a knock on enforcers, one could help the team but I just don't see Downey really filling that role to any substantial degree.

[Doggy 130]

Laraque just destroyed Shelley the other night. You didn't see it GMR?

[Carman 387]

I would love to Laraque in a wings sweater. His blogs are amazing, and he is awesome for the community it could really help boost interest in the area. He also isn't a bad liability either.

[ManLuv4Clears 7]

Because those players are as gritty as expensive toilet paper?

I wasnt talking about his penalties this year, Last year he had more than his fair share though, Hes a player from the Old NHL where things that he did would be great for that era, now in the era of the 'everythings a hook, hold, interference, etc' and the refs already love to put us a man down, we dont need it, he doesnt PK anyway, so instead of having helm who is can PK.

And to your 'afraid to goto the corners' comment, when was the last time you saw Hossa, Z, or D run from the corners?

My Ideal player I would add to the wings is McCarty from 97-00, he could fight, hit, and got 40 pts every season, thats what we need, a guy who can play good sound hockey and be gritty and drop them, not just a guy who is a boxer on skates

I'm going to go ahead and leave your section bolded for you and respond to that. You claimed earlier that you have a plethora of hockey knowledge, which I'm not here to argue, however you do have quite a disconnect with what teams are supposed to get production wise out of their 4th line players. 4th line players are their to bump, hit, grind, and be responsible defensively while chipping in with the occasional goal or fight if necessary. I'd love to come to your fantasy world were every 4th liner is getting 40 points a season .

[Mors 201]

Wow, Id rather see helm demoted and Ericsson brought up, Downey isnt worth a spot on the roster...Never scores, fights once in a blue moon, and takes dips*** penalties

When has Downey ever taken a "dips***" penalty while playing for the Wings? that specifically was one of the things he DIDNT do which made him an asset last season. He picks his battles and doesn't take stupid penalties...

[Shaman 713]

I'm going to go ahead and leave your section bolded for you and respond to that. You claimed earlier that you have a plethora of hockey knowledge, which I'm not here to argue, however you do have quite a disconnect with what teams are supposed to get production wise out of their 4th line players. 4th line players are their to bump, hit, grind, and be responsible defensively while chipping in with the occasional goal or fight if necessary. I'd love to come to your fantasy world were every 4th liner is getting 40 points a season .

As i said he was Ideal, hell, Id take grind, fight and defensively sound.

[Lovin Jiri Fischer 147]

Very interesting, hope we get to see some fights.... hossa should be back for the game tomorrow according to babcock

I would also assume that leino and helm are granted the spots on the team come playoff time when the salary cap doesn't interfere

let's home not until the 3rd period because I have a study session at 8:30

[AtomicPunk 296]

You guys talk about Downey like he was Cam Neely. Geez!

He is going to run around, throw a few checks (like a guy we hate on another team who just beat us 8-0), maybe pull on a guy's sweater for a minute or so and then sit his ass back on the bench. And he might take a penalty depending on whether the guy he hits has his back to him or not. No penalty kill, no scoring, if he is so great, what has kept him from playing in the NHL all year?

I'll answer my own question. Tomas Kopecky. And that's sad.