Ericsson/Downey Up; Helm/Leino to GR

[Doggy 130]

THANK GOD SOME TOUGHNESS FINALLY MAYBE I WONT FEEL EMBARASSED WATCHING THEM NOW LOL

HOPEFULLY DOWNEY CAN TEACH A FEW THESE GUYS TO ACT LIKE MEN

Damn, you're an irritating poster.

[uk_redwing 495]

Downey vs. Janssen

Kopecky vs. Backes

Back on the drugs I see

[Dawgs 0]

You guys talk about Downey like hes some big bad mutha that everyone in the league is afraid of. Hes a middleweight who probably would have gotten the same ass kicking Lilja did against Shelley.

[ManLuv4Clears 7]

Greetings to the board. My first post after reading much of your comments regarding this topic.

I must say, I agree with many people on this board and disagree with others. Yes, I've played, lived, and experienced hockey for generations. I believe hockey needs to be held to high standards of its original intentions. If we keep altering the game to be something it was never intended, a soft sport (i.e.), then we should move forward the outfields in baseball for the hitters to hit more homeruns so the fans can jump and cheer.

That being said, we have players and goaltenders getting run on the Detroit Red Wings DAILY. It's hard to watch quite frankly when after a routine whistle our defenseman, including our noble captain, watch the goaltender get 'snowed' after each whistle. A clear sign, in hockey language as disrespect.

The pro-Downey people on this board like fights, sure, but it's much greater than that. They realize that an ENFORCER is needed to maintain the integrity of the game. Downey will keep players honest... Will he necessarily prevent injuries? That would never be known, since a player that hasn't been injured can't be accounted for. He will; however, hold players accountable.

Also, when you take a 8-0 drubbing and react like you did as Stanley Cup Champions, you lose respect within the league. Oh, and those who speak of Lilja as a 'tough guy'. NO, my friends, no way... Lilja is a large man, with very poor fighting ability.

Downey is a must on this roster, watch his energy tonight. Last time I spoke with him he had a real cool demeanor regarding being up with the Wings; not bitter, not upset, just waiting for his time to work hard like he does on his potato farm.

Greetings, welcome, and great post. You'll find that this topic is like beating a dead horse around here and you'll go 'round and 'round with people. A good majority of posters pro enforcer or not you will find to be very knowledgeable and respectful. I take the stance of having at least one player in the line-up to keep the other team in check, kind of like the grind line of the past. However, you will find the occasional poster that screams the following arguments:

1.) Enforcers are useless because they don't play in the playoffs

2.) I want a fourth liner that can get 20 goals a season

3.) The team is the same as last year (mind you not even considering Drake as a loss)

4.) Because you are pro-enforcer you want a team full of goons

These are the posters you want to avoid because it will get you no where. Good luck and again, welcome!!

[ENFORCER 0]

You guys talk about Downey like hes some big bad mutha that everyone in the league is afraid of. Hes a middleweight who probably would have gotten the same ass kicking Lilja did against Shelley.

Lilja didn't fight Shelley, but Downey did:

and did just fine. Very misinformed post.

[ENFORCER 0]

Greetings, welcome, and great post. You'll find that this topic is like beating a dead horse around here and you'll go 'round and 'round with people. A good majority of posters pro enforcer or not you will find to be very knowledgeable and respectful. I take the stance of having at least one player in the line-up to keep the other team in check, kind of like the grind line of the past. However, you will find the occasional poster that screams the following arguments:

1.) Enforcers are useless because they don't play in the playoffs

2.) I want a fourth liner that can get 20 goals a season

3.) The team is the same as last year (mind you not even considering Drake as a loss)

4.) Because you are pro-enforcer you want a team full of goons

These are the posters you want to avoid because it will get you no where. Good luck and again, welcome!!

Thank you, I appreciate it! I've been reading this board for months and have noticed that trend. It's to the point where they exhaust some posters to simply leave that differ from their opinion. I just speak from experience of being around hockey all my life and those that disagree can. I just question whether they've ever been slashed, hit from behind, face washed with a stinky hockey glove, etc. to inform their posts against anti-enforcer hockey.

[hokike 1]

things may be on the contrary as well.

All this "they try to rough up RW players and this is a sign of disrespect. Enforcer. please." may be flawed theory.

How?

Opponents try to demonstrate their"handsomness" not b/c of lacking respect but b/c of they try to catch RW attention.

What RW thinks of you is IMPORTANT and therefore better look like as "tough" as possible.

But adversaries have usually swallow the bittest pill: champs does not care of you, regardless of what you're trying to do.

RW prefers to play game according to their own rules not to those what opponents try to set.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

You guys talk about Downey like hes some big bad mutha that everyone in the league is afraid of. Hes a middleweight who probably would have gotten the same ass kicking Lilja did against Shelley.

Worst post ever.

[Frozen-Man 144]

Downey dressed for 56 games last year and the Red Wings won the President's Trophy. This year, his roster spot - or, more accurately, the spot that a rotating platoon of Downey, Drake and McCarty filled last season - has been replaced by Marian Hossa. That's right; Marian Freakin' Hossa. And they're probably not going to win the President's Trophy this season.

Think about that.

And every time you think the Wings are making a mistake when they aren't icing the team with the most pure talent, recite that fact back to yourself.

Every time you think you can't afford dressing a guy who isn't a great skater, can't put the puck in the net and has terrible hands, recite that fact back to yourself.

Every time you think dressing a guy who will only skate 5 or 6 minutes is a waste of a roster spot and will ruin the ability to roll 4 lines... recite that fact back to yourself.

You use incredibly flawed logic to create a fact to prove something that is just not provable in the slightest way (aside from the fact that if you follow your logic to its conclusion since Hossa took Downey's spot and we were better last year we should sit Hossa for Downey). I'll illustrate it this way, it is my understanding that Lids is playing with a new brand of gloves (saw something about that in between periods). I could take every statement that you said and say:

"And every time you think the Wings are making a mistake when they aren't icing the team with the most pure talent, recite the fact that Lidstrom is using a new brand of gloves back to yourself.

Every time you think you can't afford dressing a guy who isn't a great skater, can't put the puck in the net and has terrible hands, recite the fact that Lidstrom is using a new brand of gloves back to yourself.

Every time you think dressing a guy who will only skate 5 or 6 minutes is a waste of a roster spot and will ruin the ability to roll 4 lines... the fact that Lidstrom is using a new brand of gloves back to yourself."

My statements are just a provable as "fact" as yours are (for the record I do think Drake had a big impact on this team but there is a big difference between Downey and Drake). In fact probably more so because you say Downey's spot was taken by Hossa but Downey only got 4:35 TOI/G and Hossa gets 18:14. Hossa may be in the roster spot but is not taking his minutes or playing in virtually any situation where Downey was playing.

I think the difference from last year to this year are things such as:

1) having the best PK in the league last year as opposed to one of the worst this year (which none of the guys that you mentioned were on either year);

2) having a goalie who last year had a .914 Sv% and a 2.09 GAA and a .880 Sa% and 3.26 GAA this year;

3) having guys who were hungry to win the Cup rather than had a hangover (or less motivation) from winning it the year before and less time off from going deeper into the playoffs; and

4) your whole premise requires the rest of the league to remain static. If you look at the Wings projected points this year if they stay on their current pace they will have 117+ points which is 2 more points than they had last year. That's right for everyone's complaining we are actually on pace to finish higher than we did last year. If you took the two teams THIS year's team is actually on pace to win the President's Trophy over last year's team. What then has changed that we probably won't win it? Well it probably isn't that Downey played 56 games last year and only 1 this year, it is much more likely that other teams got better and are winning more games than they did last year. The Sharks are on pace for 125 pts after only getting 108 last year and the Bruins are on pace for 121 pts this year after only 94 last year. Both of these point totals will kick the crap out of the Wings point total for last year. Whether last year's total or this year's pace the Bruins and Sharks are set to beat them - so I fail to see how them being that much better than last year lends any credence to the "fact" that the Wings won the President's Trophy when Downey played 56 games (they also won it with Lids getting injured and sitting out several games but I don't think that will help the team either).

Finally, winning the President's Trophy doesn't ensure much just look at the 1995-96 Wings.

[Frozen-Man 144]

But on the topic of questions -- I have one. When is the last time we won a cup without dressing a guy with at least 5 fighting majors? Can you answer me that one since assinine questions seem to be your thing and all.

Not really disagreeing with your premise what we need a guy who is willing to fight but I don't think your going to get those 5 fighting majors from Downey this year. If you want to dress a guy with at least 5 fighting majors Mac has 5 already, Lilly has 3, Hoss has 1, and Downey has 0. And yes I know Downey has only played in one game this year but if we have to have a guy with 5 fighting majors to win the Cup and there are only 19 games left Downey will have to get in a lot of fights in a few number of games. I doubt that he will even get to play in 10 of the last 19 but if he does he has to fight in 50% of those games, whereas if we dress Mac the Cup is ours as he already has 5 fights or if Lils isn't concussed to bad for the rest of the season he only needs 2 more.

[ENFORCER 0]

You use incredibly flawed logic to create a fact to prove something that is just not provable in the slightest way (aside from the fact that if you follow your logic to its conclusion since Hossa took Downey's spot and we were better last year we should sit Hossa for Downey). I'll illustrate it this way, it is my understanding that Lids is playing with a new brand of gloves (saw something about that in between periods). I could take every statement that you said and say:

"And every time you think the Wings are making a mistake when they aren't icing the team with the most pure talent, recite the fact that Lidstrom is using a new brand of gloves back to yourself.

Every time you think you can't afford dressing a guy who isn't a great skater, can't put the puck in the net and has terrible hands, recite the fact that Lidstrom is using a new brand of gloves back to yourself.

Every time you think dressing a guy who will only skate 5 or 6 minutes is a waste of a roster spot and will ruin the ability to roll 4 lines... the fact that Lidstrom is using a new brand of gloves back to yourself."

My statements are just a provable as "fact" as yours are (for the record I do think Drake had a big impact on this team but there is a big difference between Downey and Drake). In fact probably more so because you say Downey's spot was taken by Hossa but Downey only got 4:35 TOI/G and Hossa gets 18:14. Hossa may be in the roster spot but is not taking his minutes or playing in virtually any situation where Downey was playing.

I think the difference from last year to this year are things such as:

1) having the best PK in the league last year as opposed to one of the worst this year (which none of the guys that you mentioned were on either year);

2) having a goalie who last year had a .914 Sv% and a 2.09 GAA and a .880 Sa% and 3.26 GAA this year;

3) having guys who were hungry to win the Cup rather than had a hangover (or less motivation) from winning it the year before and less time off from going deeper into the playoffs; and

4) your whole premise requires the rest of the league to remain static. If you look at the Wings projected points this year if they stay on their current pace they will have 117+ points which is 2 more points than they had last year. That's right for everyone's complaining we are actually on pace to finish higher than we did last year. If you took the two teams THIS year's team is actually on pace to win the President's Trophy over last year's team. What then has changed that we probably won't win it? Well it probably isn't that Downey played 56 games last year and only 1 this year, it is much more likely that other teams got better and are winning more games than they did last year. The Sharks are on pace for 125 pts after only getting 108 last year and the Bruins are on pace for 121 pts this year after only 94 last year. Both of these point totals will kick the crap out of the Wings point total for last year. Whether last year's total or this year's pace the Bruins and Sharks are set to beat them - so I fail to see how them being that much better than last year lends any credence to the "fact" that the Wings won the President's Trophy when Downey played 56 games (they also won it with Lids getting injured and sitting out several games but I don't think that will help the team either).

Finally, winning the President's Trophy doesn't ensure much just look at the 1995-96 Wings.

It's not often that one can write a novel and I don't agree with one statement.

[Hockeymom1960 5,107]

I am! And I will do just for the fun of it

1. Probert

2. Kocur

3. Grimson

4. McCarty

5. ...Downey

Downey is gonna kick some ass tonight! The Wings will be a nailin' and the Blues will be a wailin' and Downey will be a flailin'!

[Johnny Law 15]

There is no exact recipe for success, you can look at all the times they were successful and draw whatever statistical conclusion you want and it won't mean s***.

Bottom line is that the Wings lost 8-0 and Babcock wants to shake things up, he is very limited in what he can do with the cap restrictions so up comes Downey to make the team more physical and up comes Big Red. Ericsson is mostly up because they want to see what he can do with the big boys.

Leino is the only one you really have to be careful with, he has tremendous potential but may take off if he doesn't see this going anywhere. All he has done is prove from day one that he belongs in the NHL, you can explain it whatever way you want to him but put yourself in that situation and even if you were for the move to bring Downey up it would be tough knowing that you have to play in GR for awhile.

I don't care if the team is full of Hudler's or Downey's I just want them to win so I'll withhold judgment on this move until we see what happens.

[Frozen-Man 144]

It's not often that one can write a novel and I don't agree with one statement.

It's not often that someone join a forum, and on day one act like a hockey god because you have played for generations, (kudos, I'll bet you're the only one here to have accomplished that feat ) and then attack another person's post (which agree with it or not I backed up with relevant and cogent rationale) without refuting any aspect of the post with any rationale of their own. It was brilliant having such an illuminating discussion with you and having your deep insight and analysis on the subject. I don't care if you disagree with my statements or thoughts on the subject but at least have the sack to make an argument in favor of your position rather than posting like a kindergartner. Also, congrats it rare that I consider blocking a poster on the first day that they sign-up.

Edit: Oh and you are an absolute moron if you don't understand or agree with the statement that the Sharks playing much better this year (on pace for 125 points) than last year is one of the reasons they might be the team that wins the President's Trophy.

Edited March 3, 2009 by Frozen-Man

[Shaman 713]

It's not often that someone join a forum, and on day one act like a hockey god because you have played for generations, (kudos, I'll bet you're the only one here to have accomplished that feat ) and then attack another person's post (which agree with it or not I backed up with relevant and cogent rationale) without refuting any aspect of the post with any rationale of their own. It was brilliant having such an illuminating discussion with you and having your deep insight and analysis on the subject. I don't care if you disagree with my statements or thoughts on the subject but at least have the sack to make an argument in favor of your position rather than posting like a kindergartner. Also, congrats it rare that I consider blocking a poster on the first day that they sign-up.

Edit: Oh and you are an absolute moron if you don't understand or agree with the statement that the Sharks playing much better this year (on pace for 125 points) than last year is one of the reasons they might be the team that wins the President's Trophy.

Dont worry, if you dont want Downey (not saying you dont want a good gritty player), then youre like me and dont know anything about hockey and therefore, all they have to do is point this out and that invalidates your arguments, thats why they will never address anything you point out .

[esteef 2,679]

I am! And I will do just for the fun of it

1. Probert

2. Kocur

3. Grimson

4. McCarty

5. ...Downey

Shouldn't our Power Play be on there somewhere?

esteef

[Frozen-Man 144]

Dont worry, if you dont want Downey (not saying you dont want a good gritty player), then youre like me and dont know anything about hockey and therefore, all they have to do is point this out and that invalidates your arguments, thats why they will never address anything you point out .

Yeah, it never ceases to amaze me that because I don't think one specific player (nothing all all to do with gritty players or enforcers - I was ecstatic when we got Drake last year) will not really help this specific Wings team with the flaws in their team game that somehow means that I know nothing about hockey, hate all enforcers/grit players, want to ban fighting from the NHL, am not a true fan, and cannot make valid points on any subject related to hockey. We are talking about a guy that Wings management (the absolute best of the best) has seen fit to play only one game and yet somehow I am a moron for thinking that Kenny and Babs have been wrong in their assessment of what the best Red Wings team looks like. I would love to have a good enforcer/grit player but I don't think that Downey provides it and think that the roster spot, playing time, and NHL experience would be better spent on guys that are being groomed to be part of the team for a long time to come, and it pisses me off that because my opinion differs some ****** acts superior and thinks that they are the end all and be all of hockey knowledge because they have played pond hockey and been in the city league for generations. And it really annoying (like trying to reason with a three year old) when some responds to a post that you spent time thinking about and backing up with a valid rationale by saying you don't know what you're talking about but not having the intelligence or ability to argue a counter point (and often times there is a valid counter argument but they feel they don't have to argue it (or don't understand it) because they have played hockey for generations.

I love a good hockey fight and if Downey gets into a fight tonight I'll be screaming at the TV and will rewind the DVR to watch it many times, but as far as what it best for the team in the long run I think other guys help the team more and would benefit from the time more than Downey - and that is not an invalid point of view.

[DMAC 25 18]

sweet now we'll actually get to see someone fight. i'm sorry but it just doesnt happen that much during the wings games anymore

[VM1138 1,921]

Anyone else think that Ericson coming up now, of all times, means they're looking at a defenseman for sure and want to see if Ericcson can be relied on for a while.

[BlueMonk 102]

You use incredibly flawed logic to create a fact to prove something that is just not provable in the slightest way (aside from the fact that if you follow your logic to its conclusion since Hossa took Downey's spot and we were better last year we should sit Hossa for Downey). I'll illustrate it this way, it is my understanding that Lids is playing with a new brand of gloves (saw something about that in between periods). I could take every statement that you said and say:

"And every time you think the Wings are making a mistake when they aren't icing the team with the most pure talent, recite the fact that Lidstrom is using a new brand of gloves back to yourself.

Every time you think you can't afford dressing a guy who isn't a great skater, can't put the puck in the net and has terrible hands, recite the fact that Lidstrom is using a new brand of gloves back to yourself.

Every time you think dressing a guy who will only skate 5 or 6 minutes is a waste of a roster spot and will ruin the ability to roll 4 lines... the fact that Lidstrom is using a new brand of gloves back to yourself."

My statements are just a provable as "fact" as yours are (for the record I do think Drake had a big impact on this team but there is a big difference between Downey and Drake). In fact probably more so because you say Downey's spot was taken by Hossa but Downey only got 4:35 TOI/G and Hossa gets 18:14. Hossa may be in the roster spot but is not taking his minutes or playing in virtually any situation where Downey was playing.

I think the difference from last year to this year are things such as:

1) having the best PK in the league last year as opposed to one of the worst this year (which none of the guys that you mentioned were on either year);

2) having a goalie who last year had a .914 Sv% and a 2.09 GAA and a .880 Sa% and 3.26 GAA this year;

3) having guys who were hungry to win the Cup rather than had a hangover (or less motivation) from winning it the year before and less time off from going deeper into the playoffs; and

4) your whole premise requires the rest of the league to remain static. If you look at the Wings projected points this year if they stay on their current pace they will have 117+ points which is 2 more points than they had last year. That's right for everyone's complaining we are actually on pace to finish higher than we did last year. If you took the two teams THIS year's team is actually on pace to win the President's Trophy over last year's team. What then has changed that we probably won't win it? Well it probably isn't that Downey played 56 games last year and only 1 this year, it is much more likely that other teams got better and are winning more games than they did last year. The Sharks are on pace for 125 pts after only getting 108 last year and the Bruins are on pace for 121 pts this year after only 94 last year. Both of these point totals will kick the crap out of the Wings point total for last year. Whether last year's total or this year's pace the Bruins and Sharks are set to beat them - so I fail to see how them being that much better than last year lends any credence to the "fact" that the Wings won the President's Trophy when Downey played 56 games (they also won it with Lids getting injured and sitting out several games but I don't think that will help the team either).

Finally, winning the President's Trophy doesn't ensure much just look at the 1995-96 Wings.

You missed my point completely. I didn''t say they need Downey to win, I said that even though they dressed this supposed talentless pylon, they had great success.

[Frozen-Man 144]

You missed my point completely. I didn''t say they need Downey to win, I said that even though they dressed this supposed talentless pylon, they had great success.

I apologize, I did miss that. I thought you were stating that he was a big part of the reason for the success rather than that they had great success whether he was dressed or not (sounds odd saying he was not dressed - I mean who wants to grapple and fight the naked guy). I would agree with you then, I don't think Downey is a great liability to this team, I think he is great for energy, locker room presence, and overall emotion (which has been lacking), I just feel there are better options especially since the Wings will probably call several of the guys up full time next year. However, I agree that any talk that he is a great detriment to the team is baseless.

[ENFORCER 0]

Frozen-Man, not sure if that was pent up anger or what, all I said was I disagreed with your long post. That's it.

I think the following regarding your thoughts on having the most points in the regular season:

A) President's trophy means NOTHING other than home ice advantage, which didn't mean much to the Wings last year in their success since many home games weren't even sold out and sounded that of a library.

B) Wings are all but a lock to go to the playoffs, why have players continue to get injured in out of hand games? That's why you have Downeys and SOLID 4th line players.

Also, a sidenote. I notice something on this board that seems rather unbelievable. It seems that the following generalization takes place:

Either 1- PRO -enforcer is a goon maniac that wants UFC on ice.

2- "Power Play is Our Enforcer" Wants Disney on Ice.

Both wrong. Isn't there a balance? I've seen posters literally retire from these boards and post elsewhere due to the attacks they receive.

[rbk9k 0]

too bad all 4 couldn't stay up

[Frozen-Man 144]

Frozen-Man, not sure if that was pent up anger or what, all I said was I disagreed with your long post. That's it.

The pent up annoyance is with someone commenting negatively on a post (mine or anyone elses) that was substantive, cogent, and backed up with a rationale with a post that said nothing of value, added nothing to further the discussion, and contained not a shred of rationale as to why my post was wrong. Furthermore, I get especially annoyed when you don't even agree with your own post (it is just flaming for the purpose of annoying others) as I will describe below.

You said:

It's not often that one can write a novel and I don't agree with one statement.

However, you also said:

A) President's trophy means NOTHING other than home ice advantage, which didn't mean much to the Wings last year in their success since many home games weren't even sold out and sounded that of a library.

These two comments can't mesh since my post with which you couldn't even agree with one statement EXPLICITLY stated that "Finally, winning the President's Trophy doesn't ensure much just look at the 1995-96 Wings." Reread my post it was not a post about how the President's Trophy matters but was merely a response as to why we likely won't win it this year. How can you disagree with the statement that the Bruins and Sharks are playing much better? How can you disagree with the statement having the #1 PK last year made our team better than having the #28th PK this year? How can you disagree with the statement that Ozzy having a .914 Sv% and a 2.09 GAA is not better than him having a .880 Sa% and 3.26 GAA this year?

That is where my annoyance comes from, a post with no thought or argument that even you didn't believe.

Also, a sidenote. I notice something on this board that seems rather unbelievable. It seems that the following generalization takes place:

Either 1- PRO -enforcer is a goon maniac that wants UFC on ice.

2- "Power Play is Our Enforcer" Wants Disney on Ice.

Both wrong. Isn't there a balance? I've seen posters literally retire from these boards and post elsewhere due to the attacks they receive.

There is a balance and many on these boards would like a good enforcer/grit player but don't feel we have a good option and don't think Downey will solve that need. I would have been annoyed regardless of the side of the debate you took. I didn't care in fact I couldn't tell because you post was useless.

[ENFORCER 0]

The pent up annoyance is with someone commenting negatively on a post (mine or anyone elses) that was substantive, cogent, and backed up with a rationale with a post that said nothing of value, added nothing to further the discussion, and contained not a shred of rationale as to why my post was wrong. Furthermore, I get especially annoyed when you don't even agree with your own post (it is just flaming for the purpose of annoying others) as I will describe below.

You said:

However, you also said:

These two comments can't mesh since my post with which you couldn't even agree with one statement EXPLICITLY stated that "Finally, winning the President's Trophy doesn't ensure much just look at the 1995-96 Wings." Reread my post it was not a post about how the President's Trophy matters but was merely a response as to why we likely won't win it this year. How can you disagree with the statement that the Bruins and Sharks are playing much better? How can you disagree with the statement having the #1 PK last year made our team better than having the #28th PK this year? How can you disagree with the statement that Ozzy having a .914 Sv% and a 2.09 GAA is not better than him having a .880 Sa% and 3.26 GAA this year?

That is where my annoyance comes from, a post with no thought or argument that even you didn't believe.

There is a balance and many on these boards would like a good enforcer/grit player but don't feel we have a good option and don't think Downey will solve that need. I would have been annoyed regardless of the side of the debate you took. I didn't care in fact I couldn't tell because you post was useless.

Thank you for your input. I thought I was on ignore though?