Kopecky

[eva unit zero 271]

I was actually thinking about this today. With Kops and Flip on fire, who's going to be the next LGW's whipping boy? I was thinking LGW's would call out Hudler since he hasn't been "up to par"...

The answer is clearly:

Defenseman Brad Stuart.

Rafalski provides defense that is at least equal, and he is much better offensively. Kronwall has outplayed Stuart in pretty much every aspect and is younger but not completely inexperienced so he is likely to continue outplaying Stuart for years to come despite the fact his price tag is lower for the next few years. Lilja has been top-four quality all season so he has earned quite a bit of credit in this regard as his role is as a third-pair defenseman. The only player who might displace Stuart is Filppula, if he returns to the level of play he was displaying earlier this season next year despite the fact it is a year later, bringing further into question the contract he signed. It won't be Hudler as his scoring level per minute is among the best if not the best in the league; he scores raw numbers that keep up with second liners despite playing ice time of fourth liners, and he is solid defensively as well as improving his skating a great deal, something some of his teammates have not put the work in to do.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

I was actually thinking about this today. With Kops and Flip on fire, who's going to be the next LGW's whipping boy? I was thinking LGW's would call out Hudler since he hasn't been "up to par"...

But my bet would be Sammy. Who knows/

Hopefully we have shutout and score 8+ goals tonight so LGW's doesn't implode or have another melt down.

Probably Ozzie, since he's been so inconsistent all season. At this point, I'm keeping my fingers crossed hoping for him to play about 10 consecutive games really well.

[Greatness=PavelDatsyuk 65]

Kopecky has been improving, that a fact, but until there is some consistency, people will still make him into a whipping boy. It was the same way with Franzen last year, no one was sure if it was luck or skill with Franzen. It will take a really good stretch for Kopecky to lose his whipping by status, and here's to hopping he dose.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

If Kopecky picks up 100 points in his next 100 games, then maybe the comparison to Franzen will be legitimate (32 points in 170 games vs. 128 points in 279 games).

Kopecky isn't an "illogical whipping boy", he's not a good enough hockey player to play on the first or second lines, and he's not what's needed on the 3rd or 4th line. His hits are a joke and he got run over again yesterday.

2 weeks ago this thread would have been laughed off the forums. He picks up a few points and now he's just "coming to form". This is just another premature "I told you so" about Kopecky when he hasn't actually earned it just yet.

When there are multiple threads weekly ripping on a single player, it's often he gets ripped on illogically and people go off the deep end with him.

Did someone just mention Kopecky and Fischer in the same breath? Please dont insult Jiri like that.

Both had torn ACLs in their career. Both have had slow recoveries trying to get back in their old form from them. It's not an insult.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Kopecky has been improving, that a fact, but until there is some consistency, people will still make him into a whipping boy. It was the same way with Franzen last year, no one was sure if it was luck or skill with Franzen. It will take a really good stretch for Kopecky to lose his whipping by status, and here's to hopping he dose.

Or he can jump Pronger from behind and beat the s*** out of him mercilessly.

That would forgive Kopecky in my mind.

[Greatness=PavelDatsyuk 65]

Or he can jump Pronger from behind and beat the s*** out of him mercilessly.

That would forgive Kopecky in my mind.

If he did that, he would become one of my top 10 favorite wings(currently playing, top 20 of all time)

[sureWhyNot 19]

i hate how this thread comes about only after he starts performing. kopecky absolutely deserved the guff he was getting. he wasnt throwing around his weight, wasnt scoring or helping score, and in general was a off-beat player. i will give him props for his recent burst, and hopefully he is coming around, but his grief was not unfounded

Need a tissue? I hate when people like yourself act as though a player on a professional sports team who is making a boat load of money and producing absolutely nothing shouldn't be called out -- as Kopecky was, when he was completely invisible night after night.

He's doing better, and that's great, I hope he keeps it up. But in all reality "doing better" then what he had been doing for the 150 games prior to his heating up doesn't take a lot.

[sureWhyNot 19]

Or he can jump Pronger from behind and beat the s*** out of him mercilessly.

That would forgive Kopecky in my mind.

I would settle for doing something to guys like Backes after running Ozzie multiple times in one night. But hey, I should know better then to expect that -- I mean he's a 4th line "grinder", they have no expectations of doing anything else then breaking even at the +/- and netting a handful of goals.bv

[Dabura 12,207]

Ok, so now that he's second in hits on the team behind Brad Stuart (acquired at the trade deadline last year) he's not using his body at all? Your post makes TOTAL sense. He led Wings forwards in hitting last year. He leads Wings forwards in hitting this year. Seems like he's doing his job with respect to hitting. Let's take a look at hits last year vs this year for Kopay.

2007-08: 111 in 77.

2008-09: 96 in 66 (to date) which projects to 112 in 77.

As you can see, if Kopecky were to play 77 games this season hitting at the same rate he has been this year, he would end up with about the same number of hits as he did last year, when he was doing his job as a hitter just fine according to the way this thread, including yourself, was posting. How does the same performance suddenly go from "good" to "completely unacceptable" over the span of one offseason where the guy was recovering from knee surgery?

People piss all over Kopecky because he's "talking up Downey's spot" and it drives them crazy. It's lame and they should give it a rest.

Personally, I like what he brings to the table this season. He's looked great lately.

[eva unit zero 271]

I would settle for doing something to guys like Backes after running Ozzie multiple times in one night. But hey, I should know better then to expect that -- I mean he's a 4th line "grinder", they have no expectations of doing anything else then breaking even at the +/- and netting a handful of goals.bv

Backes ran Ozzie two or three times all night. How many times was Kopecky even on the ice at the same time as Backes, let alone on the ice at the same time as Backes when Backes ran Ozzie? Think for a second, will ya? It's not just Kopecky who has to want him to do something about Backes; Babcock has to put him out there when Backes is out there.

[T.Low 1,011]

I don't understand the Red Wings system because Kopecky hasn't done anything up until the most recent 5 or 6 games? He wasn't doing anything before he was injured either. If Kopecky isn't a grinder then he's in trouble, 'cause he's clearly not a scorer.

Like I said...another premature Kopecky thread. At least let him finish out the season strong before you start with the OMG I TOLD YOU SO.

Hey, keep Clearly outta this!

[eva unit zero 271]

Need a tissue? I hate when people like yourself act as though a player on a professional sports team who is making a boat load of money and producing absolutely nothing shouldn't be called out -- as Kopecky was, when he was completely invisible night after night.

He's doing better, and that's great, I hope he keeps it up. But in all reality "doing better" then what he had been doing for the 150 games prior to his heating up doesn't take a lot.

Even without his recent "hot streak" Kopecky is one of the five or six best players in the league consistently playing on a team's fourth line this season, and the best on the Wings given the performances by Draper and Maltby, although all three might make that top-six list. The thing is, Kopecky has been performing well enough all season to play on most teams' third lines and has the skill set to fit in full-time on many teams' top-two lines without them missing a beat. Because he has been used as a fourth line grinder and has more capably filled that role than, say, Filppula or Samuelsson would have, Kopecky hasn't been given many chances to play on a scoring line and to use his offensive abilities. Recently, he has been given that chance, and has shown that he is perfectly capable of being an offensively threatening forward who plays all three forward positions, is solid defensively, and can play a physical game. I wouldn't call him an intimidating power forward...but there are many players in the league that label is applied to who are no more intimidating than Tomas Kopecky. Dany Heatley, Joe Thornton, Rich Nash, Corey Perry are among them. Yes, they are better overall players...but it Kopecky were to keep his recent point production going full-time...would they be considered better players any longer? Would Kopecky suddenly be considered one of the league's better power forwards? Not making a prediction; simply asking a couple questions. I have maintained that Kopecky would be a good scorer at the NHL level since the Wings first drafted him, but I'm not saying that next year is his breakout year. Certainly there are many potential circumstances in place that could give Kopecky the perfect chance for an excellent breakout year; At least one, more likely two, and possibly even three of Franzen/Filppula/Hudler/Samuelsson being gone by the start of next season, plus Kopecky's hot scoring streak as well as impressing defensive play recently should earn him more ice time next year, depending on how he looks in the postseason.

[ComradeWasabi 109]

Even without his recent "hot streak" Kopecky is one of the five or six best players in the league consistently playing on a team's fourth line this season

That is highly open to debate. The fluid status of other team's lines puts some fourth-liners on one of the other lines. Kopecky hasn't shown anything which puts him significantly above most of the other fourth-liners out there. The highest compliment I can give him about his play throughout this entire season, not just the last 10 games, is that he's been defensively responsible all year. His +/- is much, much better than Draper and Maltby's (at a whopping 0) at least, while getting comparable minutes and situational play. He's even been out on the PK and been reliable. I think his absence from the Cup run last year could give him a bit of hunger that it's obvious is lacking in some of his compadres.

[eva unit zero 271]

That is highly open to debate. The fluid status of other team's lines puts some fourth-liners on one of the other lines. Kopecky hasn't shown anything which puts him significantly above most of the other fourth-liners out there. The highest compliment I can give him about his play throughout this entire season, not just the last 10 games, is that he's been defensively responsible all year. His +/- is much, much better than Draper and Maltby's (at a whopping 0) at least, while getting comparable minutes and situational play. He's even been out on the PK and been reliable. I think his absence from the Cup run last year could give him a bit of hunger that it's obvious is lacking in some of his compadres.

Compared to those players who are seeing similar ice per game and similar games; in other words, other players who can be classified as "regular fourth liners."

You get Bobby Holik, Jeremy Roenick, Chris Thorburn, Adam Mair, Jesse Winchester, Todd Fedoruk, Kirk Maltby, Arron Asham, Ben Eager, Donald Brashear, Eric Boulton. These are all forwards who have played a similar number of games and minutes per game as Kopecky, meaning they are all basically regular fourth-liners on their team. Most of them have been badley outperformed by Kopecky...some have come close to his level but Kopecky has still been better. Now consider that most players playing similar ice time per game to Kopecky (fourth line) are playing 20-30 games per season, while Kopecky is maintaining a regular spot on the roster. Most teams are rotating guys in and out on their fourth line with maybe one regular. Some teams might have two regulars. The Wings are rare in that they have, for the most part, used three regulars on their fourth line this season. But of the "regulars" used on fourth lines this season...Kopecky has been the best. I would even argue that his performance has outdone many third-liners on other teams, but that is spreading much more into the realm of opinion.

[Mors 201]

Compared to those players who are seeing similar ice per game and similar games; in other words, other players who can be classified as "regular fourth liners."

You get Bobby Holik, Jeremy Roenick, Chris Thorburn, Adam Mair, Jesse Winchester, Todd Fedoruk, Kirk Maltby, Arron Asham, Ben Eager, Donald Brashear, Eric Boulton. These are all forwards who have played a similar number of games and minutes per game as Kopecky, meaning they are all basically regular fourth-liners on their team. Most of them have been badley outperformed by Kopecky...some have come close to his level but Kopecky has still been better. Now consider that most players playing similar ice time per game to Kopecky (fourth line) are playing 20-30 games per season, while Kopecky is maintaining a regular spot on the roster. Most teams are rotating guys in and out on their fourth line with maybe one regular. Some teams might have two regulars. The Wings are rare in that they have, for the most part, used three regulars on their fourth line this season. But of the "regulars" used on fourth lines this season...Kopecky has been the best. I would even argue that his performance has outdone many third-liners on other teams, but that is spreading much more into the realm of opinion.

Wow, that's a great list, I'd take just about any one of those guys over Kopecky, thanks for assembling that for future reference.

[egroen 384]

I'd say Kopecky is starting to earn another contract at right around league minimum.... which he wasn't playing up to for the majority of the season. It's good to see him playing better, and hopefully he will help the Wings roll 4 lines in the playoffs. His hitting sucks, but at least the effort is there.

[eva unit zero 271]

Wow, that's a great list, I'd take just about any one of those guys over Kopecky, thanks for assembling that for future reference.

Have you watched ANY of them play this season?

[hossa8109 0]

Have you watched ANY of them play this season?

Thats a great point. There isnt a chance he has seen those guys play this year, possibly Maltby. I guess hes trying to say hes a Kopecky hater for life.

[eva unit zero 271]

Thats a great point. There isnt a chance he has seen those guys play this year, possibly Maltby. I guess hes trying to say hes a Kopecky hater for life.

Yeah...saying he'll keep that list around for reference of guys he'll always take over Kopecky? Maltby has been the Wings' worst forward in pretty much every game he has played this season, even when guys from Grand Rapids have been in the lineup. I doubt he has outplayed Kopecky 5 times, and I can't specifically recall a game where Maltby was better but I know Malts has had a few good nights.

It's like saying in 1993 you'll keep the list of Ray Bourque, Chris Chelios, Al MacInnis, and Steve Chiasson around for a list of defensemen who have a hard slapshot, are very good defensively, and can put up points that are all better than Nicklas Lidstrom. I mean after all, Nick didn't win a Norris over a single one of those guys, did he?

[Reds4Life 51]

Yeah...saying he'll keep that list around for reference of guys he'll always take over Kopecky? Maltby has been the Wings' worst forward in pretty much every game he has played this season, even when guys from Grand Rapids have been in the lineup. I doubt he has outplayed Kopecky 5 times, and I can't specifically recall a game where Maltby was better but I know Malts has had a few good nights.

It's like saying in 1993 you'll keep the list of Ray Bourque, Chris Chelios, Al MacInnis, and Steve Chiasson around for a list of defensemen who have a hard slapshot, are very good defensively, and can put up points that are all better than Nicklas Lidstrom. I mean after all, Nick didn't win a Norris over a single one of those guys, did he?

He did.

2001 - Nick 1st, Bourque 2nd

2002 - Nick 1st, Chelios 2nd

2003 - Nick 1st, MacInnis 2nd

Edited March 16, 2009 by Reds4Life

[Guest Crymson]

Have you watched ANY of them play this season?

I'd say I've only seen Mors show sense in his posts on very few occasions in general.

[eva unit zero 271]

He did.

2001 - Nick 1st, Bourque 2nd

2002 - Nick 1st, Chelios 2nd

2003 - Nick 1st, MacInnis 2nd

You are not very good at picking up sarcasm, are you? You've been around a couple years now and haven't noticed the amount of sarcasm used in my and others' posts?

[Mors 201]

Thats a great point. There isnt a chance he has seen those guys play this year, possibly Maltby. I guess hes trying to say hes a Kopecky hater for life.

That's a great point, that you're fully aware of which teams and games I've watched this entire season, thanks for that

You're doing a great job of protecting your roommate this season Marian, keep up the good work.

[Mors 201]

I'd say I've only seen Mors show sense in his posts on very few occasions in general.

I'll put my posts up against your brilliant contributions anytime slick. I never stoop to calling people out or using personal insults which is rare on this forum, don't think I can say the same for you.

I've made it clear that I don't like Kopecky, I didn't like him before he was injured, I don't like him now. I never thought he was what the team needed, and I never expected him to become the hard hitting player this team lacks. He's just another big body that plays like a softie. So far, I've been proven right both subjectively and statistically.

You guys can keep on debating the future of Kopecky's "untapped skills" for his future role as a "Second-line Power Forward" (the title given to him by the beloved stat-master Eva, I hope for your sake he continues to improve...but I'm not going to contribute to anymore of these premature Kopecky celebration threads.

[eva unit zero 271]

I'll put my posts up against your brilliant contributions anytime slick. I never stoop to calling people out or using personal insults which is rare on this forum, don't think I can say the same for you.

I've made it clear that I don't like Kopecky, I didn't like him before he was injured, I don't like him now. I never thought he was what the team needed, and I never expected him to become the hard hitting player this team lacks. He's just another big body that plays like a softie. So far, I've been proven right both subjectively and statistically.

You guys can keep on debating the future of Kopecky's "untapped skills" for his future role as a "Second-line Power Forward" (the title given to him by the beloved stat-master Eva, I hope for your sake he continues to improve...but I'm not going to contribute to anymore of these premature Kopecky celebration threads.

You didn't like Kopecky before his injury. I projected him as a potential top-six power forward when he was in the minors. Personally I'm hoping he gets a chance to replace Franzen after Franzen leaves this summer, but I don't know if it will happen. I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong about players. Are you?