The misconception that Datsyuk and Zetterberg are equal

[JeffBridges 0]

How many more seasons will it take before this belief is squashed? The stats and tape show that Datsyuk consistantly can play with anyone on the team and put up 85+ points. Z's biggest career season came while playing with Datsyuk last season.

This is mainly in reaction to Babcock calling Datsyuk the "Best forward in the game".

What else does Datsyuk need to do to actually take claim as the best forward on this team? It seems like every comparison thread has Datsyuk or Zetterberg as equal and its simply not the case. They get the same minutes, Zetterberg has better linemates and hes 20 points behind Datsyuk.

In before eva or others say "Zetterberg is better defensively, the Selke is a sham" and somehow Zetterberg's unrecognized defense somehow puts him on the same level as Datsyuk.

In all honesty, Datsyuk is doing nothing but getting better while Z seems to have hit his career potential without being paired with Datsyuk. A Selke finalist, 75 point player is nothing to put down but its clearly not the same as a 100 point Selke season.

Can we all just admit that Zetterberg's game is lifted by playing with Datsyuk?

[ComradeWasabi 109]

Can we all just admit that Zetterberg's game is lifted by playing with Datsyuk?

Everyone's game is lifted by playing with Datsyuk. Besides Old Saint Nick, easily the most consistent player on the Wings. If you asked, I would certainly rank him above Zatta as well.

[Xitium 272]

Milk = good.

Cookies = good.

Milk AND cookies = uber.

Same with D and Z.

[EuroTwin 240]

Milk = good.

Cookies = good.

Milk AND cookies = uber.

Same with D and Z.

Best comparison ever. But who is milk and who is cookies?

[JeffBridges 0]

Milk = good.

Cookies = good.

Milk AND cookies = uber.

Same with D and Z.

Thats not the case though, I don't know why having a legit discussion about which player is better is such a problem. It seems that since the tides have changed and Z is playing second fiddle the discussion isn't allowed to happen or the "They're equal, they're on the same team, we're lucky to have both!" argument happens.

Why can't we have this debate?

[kylee 727]

i love zetty.

but Datsyuk is even better. i feel they play their best together.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Milk = good.

Cookies = good.

Milk AND cookies = uber.

Same with D and Z.

^This post=Win.

[Lovin Jiri Fischer 147]

I agree that Dats is the best forward on the team. But Z is still important too. Remember him killing those 5 on 3's in the finals last year? They are both good at completely different things.

[55fan 5,133]

Thats not the case though, I don't know why having a legit discussion about which player is better is such a problem. It seems that since the tides have changed and Z is playing second fiddle the discussion isn't allowed to happen or the "They're equal, they're on the same team, we're lucky to have both!" argument happens.

Why can't we have this debate?

You mean like picking one over the other?

We can. Some people do. In fact, you're doing it right now.

The fact is that they're both great players. Being lucky to have both is merely third opinion.

I guess my question is why we have to have a discussion in which we're not allowed that third option.

For the record, my opinion is that Dats is better than Z, but if I had the 3 options in a poll, I'd go with #3.

[Phazon 24]

Remember him killing those 5 on 3's in the finals last year? They are both good at completely different things.

I remember him for beating the red wings playoff scoring record. He had more points in the playoffs then Howe, yzerman or fedorov had in a single playoff run.

[JeffBridges 0]

I agree that Dats is the best forward on the team. But Z is still important too. Remember him killing those 5 on 3's in the finals last year? They are both good at completely different things.

Example #1

Admitting that Datsyuk is the better player but taking it down a notch by bringing up a single play from the Finals last season. One play or being the starting center on the 5 on 3 negates 20 + points?

The fact that Zetterberg is the starting center on the five on three is the last thing people cling to with this argument. At what point does the fact that Datsyuk scores at a higher pace, scores more goals, plays with anyone, is better at faceoffs, gets the same PK time and has a higher +/- overshadow that?

We're comparing two centers, on the same team, playing the same system, situations and minutes with pretty comparable linemates. This is literally the easiest comparison ever, much easier than Datsyuk vs Malkin vs Ovechkin vs Crosby.

[Z and D for the C 712]

This is something that has shown apparent this season. Z is an amazing player no doubt, but he'll never have the season he did last year without Datsyuk. I'd say Datsyuk >> Hossa > Zetterberg. Z is still a top 30 forward and top 10ish 2 way forward, but Datsyuk easily outshines him.

Defensively Z is the best forward on the team, however. But all encompassing, Datsyuk is the better player.

That said, I don't think 6mil for Z is that huge of a discount.

Edited March 25, 2009 by Z and D for the C

[JeffBridges 0]

You mean like picking one over the other?

We can. Some people do. In fact, you're doing it right now.

The fact is that they're both great players. Being lucky to have both is merely third opinion.

I guess my question is why we have to have a discussion in which we're not allowed that third option.

For the record, my opinion is that Dats is better than Z, but if I had the 3 options in a poll, I'd go with #3.

The discussion is, which player is better?

The third option isn't and has never been necessary. Like I said in the above post, this is easily the easist comparison every to make. Look at these stat lines:

73 games, 30 goals, 59 assists, +35, 20 PIM 20 minutes a game.

69 games, 29 goals, 38 assists, +15, 34 PIM, 20 minutes a game.

Keep in mind, they both play in the same situations, with comparable linemates.

Its a natural choice if you remove personal bias.

[adtthosa 5]

I don't think anyone on this board will argue that Zetterberg has been better than Datsyuk this season. Right now Datsyuk is looking like the best player in the league.

[Z and D for the C 712]

Why can't we have this debate?

Because most people on this forum think that saying "x is better than y" is the same as saying "y is trash" even if you specify otherwise explicitly.

[JeffBridges 0]

I don't think anyone on this board will argue that Zetterberg has been better than Datsyuk this season. Right now Datsyuk is looking like the best player in the league.

I would argue that Zetterberg has never been better than Datsyuk during the respective careers. The only season's in which they were never paired was most of this season and the 05-06 season. Datsyuk played with Shanny and Draper. Zetterberg played with Holmstrom and Samuelsson. That season they both finished with 85+ points.

Back then the argument was that Datsyuk wasn't great defensively, which was completely wrong. He was a faceoff god and two way machine in the 05-06 series against Edmonton but only registered a couple assists so he was considered a choke artist, while Z scored 6 goals in 6 games.

How did Datsyuk go from a 87 point floater to a 97 point Selke winner in two seasons? Was it the fact that his game changed drastically over a season and a half or was it because he was severely underrated by Red Wings fan and virtually unknown except for his dekes outside of Detroit?

Edited March 25, 2009 by JeffBridges

[Guest CaliWingsNut]

Your right... to a degree.

On a day to day basis, season, Datsyuk is the better player via stats.

The thing is Z is a leader, and a hard worker. He performs amazingly under pressure (5 on 3 in finals anyone?). Not to mention he's best friends w/ Dats.

Overall they are equals to me. This is a bit like comparing Gretzky to Stevie Y. Gretz is the better day-to-day player, Yzerman was the better leader... and we have both.

[JeffBridges 0]

Your right... to a degree.

On a day to day basis, season, Datsyuk is the better player via stats.

The thing is Z is a leader, and a hard worker. He performs amazingly under pressure (5 on 3 in finals anyone?). Not to mention he's best friends w/ Dats.

Overall they are equals to me. This is a bit like comparing Gretzky to Stevie Y. Gretz is the better day-to-day player, Yzerman was the better leader... and we have both.

Please give me one example of Zetterberg's "leadership" that somehow puts him over the top?

And really, removing the homer glasses, if you're taking a player you're taking Gretzky 100% of the time over Yzerman.

This is example #2

The "leadership" excuse.

#3 is the language barrier

and the fourth and final reason is Hank's beard, its the ultimate trump card in this discussion.

[Namingway 146]

Let's not forget that 5 on 3 pk in the SCF against the Pens and their almighty duo of Crosby and Malkin. If it weren't for Z, the Wings could've easily lost that game and maybe eventually went to a game 7 if Z weren't around. Nobody can take away from what Dats brings to the team but same could be said about Z. I think they're both great players and comparing them is like comparing apples and oranges. Datsyuk is overall better offensively imo but we've seen Z do what Dats does as well. To say that Dats is better offensively is one thing, to say that Dats is better than Z is another. I'd say the only thing that brings Z down a bit is how he's prone to injuries, other than that they are both just as important to the team. I could see Z being a better leader type than Dats. Why? Because Dats is more on the shy and quiet side. Not saying that it's a bad thing, but I can't see him being able to shout out and boost the team's morale with words, whereas I could see Hank doing so in the near future. The Sens had that same problem with Alfie in the playoffs last year. He wasn't vocal enough and it ended up not helping them succeed in the playoffs when they really needed that leadership push.

Just my $.02

Edit: Z seems to step it up big time during big games. He also scored 4 goals for his country back in the day for team Sweden against their arch rival Finland. I don't think we've seen the best of Z yet and they're both getting better and better. Who knows, if Z weren't so injury prone, he could be just as good as Datsyuk is offensively or maybe better. There's no telling.

Edited March 25, 2009 by Namingway

[RedStormRising 7]

Thats not the case though, I don't know why having a legit discussion about which player is better is such a problem. It seems that since the tides have changed and Z is playing second fiddle the discussion isn't allowed to happen or the "They're equal, they're on the same team, we're lucky to have both!" argument happens.

Why can't we have this debate?

Because they are both world-class players with unbelievable talent. It simply does not matter who is "better." They are both the definition of elite. Honestly I find this "debate" to be pointless. They both have their specialties and their weaknesses, but in the end they are both amazing. Personally I'd take Hossa over them both...

Please give me one example of Zetterberg's "leadership" that somehow puts him over the top?

And really, removing the homer glasses, if you're taking a player you're taking Gretzky 100% of the time over Yzerman.

This is example #2

The "leadership" excuse.

Zetterberg has all but been named the next Captain, which seems to warrant that he has tremendous leadership capabilities don't you think?

Edited March 25, 2009 by RedStormRising

[JeffBridges 0]

Let's not forget that 5 on 3 pk in the SCF against the Pens and their almighty duo of Crosby and Malkin. If it weren't for Z, the Wings could've easily lost that game and maybe eventually went to a game 7 if Z weren't around. Nobody can take away from what Dats brings to the team but same could be said about Z. I think they're both great players and comparing them is like comparing apples and oranges. Datsyuk is overall better offensively imo but we've seen Z do what Dats does as well. To say that Dats is better offensively is one thing, to say that Dats is better than Z is another. I'd say the only thing that brings Z down a bit is how he's prone to injuries, other than that they are both just as important to the team. I could see Z being a better leader type than Dats.

Actually its not, every meaningful offensive statistic disagrees with your opinion. Datsyuk is going to finish top three in Selke voting, with the possibility of winning it while scoring 20+ more points than Zetterberg.

Zetterberg performs at a lower level when not paired with Datsyuk. Same can't be said for Datsyuk.

Datsyuk scores at a higher rate when Z is out of the lineup, Z scores at the same pace or lower during the rare occasion that Datsyuk is out.

What shows more leadership then being the hardest working player on the ice? Is Crosby the better player because he can speak English better than Malkin?

[Husker BigGuy 0]

Personally, I think Datsyuk is the best all-around player on the team.

Maybe he is the best all-around player in the league. I don't know the league that well, so my opinion is not worth much.

He's very entertaining to watch, for sure. He's the Red wings version of Tommie Frazier.

However, don't overlook that Z is superior in a couple ways to Pavel.

For one, he is better at face-offs, and thats important.

Two, he seems better overall on defense, but that's a close call.

Hossa brings some speed and physical play that is superior to both of them.

Because someone evaluates one player on the same team as better than another does not mean that somehow he is disruptive to team unity, or any such thing.

Otherwise, Babcock is a shmuck for saying what he did.

Is Babcock a shmuck or what?

[C-TownWing 0]

I'm on record here that Datsyuk is the best forward in the league. Z's in the league last I checked.

But seriously, what's with the Zetterberg hate-on? Every time someone says something positive about him, you crap on it. The consensus agrees that Dats is better, there's absolutely no need to belittle Z's 3-on-5 play, his leadership, etc. He's still one of the top 15 or so forwards in the league. Epic fail by you.

[titanium2 867]

Milk = good.

Cookies = good.

Milk AND cookies = uber.

Same with D and Z.

Haha. Funniest post I've read in a while.

You can't make cookies without milk. Well... you can, I guess, like those Diet coke cakes, bleh, but they're better with milk. In this economy however, sometimes you can only have one. While cookies are nice and sweet, milk is a true staple and probably more useful because it goes with so many other things, like cereal, and is often an essential ingredient to other things like alfredo pasta sauce. If I absolutely had to pick only one, then I'm going with milk while hating myself at the same time because I passed on cookies.

[Namingway 146]

Actually its not, every meaningful offensive statistic disagrees with your opinion. Datsyuk is going to finish top three in Selke voting, with the possibility of winning it while scoring 20+ more points than Zetterberg.

Zetterberg performs at a lower level when not paired with Datsyuk. Same can't be said for Datsyuk.

Datsyuk scores at a higher rate when Z is out of the lineup, Z scores at the same pace or lower during the rare occasion that Datsyuk is out.

What shows more leadership then being the hardest working player on the ice? Is Crosby the better player because he can speak English better than Malkin?

Actually yes, he is. Was Feds a better leader candidate to stevie Y back in his breakthrough year? I don't think so. Also just look at what I said about Alfie and the Sens last year.

Also, gee, I wonder why the NHL decided to give the Conn smythe to Z last year. I bet it's rigged, Dats should've totally won that