b.shanafan14 733 Report post Posted April 9, 2009 Pretty good article. Unfortunately when talking Hart, I think the voters always go for top offensive production weighed against the skill of the rest of his team. Rarely, if ever do they look at +/- or defensive body of work, which is a shame. Ovechkin is the leagues best goal scorer and a hitting machine on a team that is VASTLY improved from last year. Malkin is a point producing machine on a team that has two. The argument on Pavel is that he is surrounded by so much other talent, but what does it say when a player is far and away the best player on such as team, as Pavel has been all season. Take away 3 minutes of ice time per game from each of Crosby, Malkin, and Oveckin and switch about 2 more over to PK and put them out against the other teams best line where they are asked to play defense against elite scorers and the big three lose at least the 10 or so points Pavel trails them. Really is remarkable that a whole dimension of the game seems to be excluded when considering MVP. Kinda how Mike Green is basically a forward playing the point and he is in line to win Norris based on offensive output alone. Either way, Pavel deserves it just as much as Oveckin. At the very least he better be a finalist. http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/20...yuk_builds.html Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
b.shanafan14 733 Report post Posted April 9, 2009 bump to prevent repeat. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HomeNugget 2 Report post Posted April 9, 2009 The Hart is supposed to go to the most valuable player, and on this team, with so much talent, it's difficult to say Datsyuk should win it. What he should win is the Pearson, which is awarded to the best player. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Echolalia 2,961 Report post Posted April 9, 2009 I have no doubt in my mind that Datsyuk right now is the single best player in the nhl, yet he is one of many superstars in a loaded Wings team, so while he brings a lot to the table, his game is just one piece of the pie. The same could be said for Malkin and Crosby, although to a lesser extent. Ovechkin, while not the best player in the leage (imo), has had the biggest impact on his team than any other player, and that's what I expect the league to look at when considering who to vote for. Although it is interesting that all these articles are popping up advocating Datsyuk for MVP, despite the fact that everyone sees Ovie as the hands-down favorite for the award. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
djohns74 3 Report post Posted April 9, 2009 If Datsyuk gets some consideration/recognition, I'd be pretty happy with that since it's more than the Wings ever get as far as Hart voting goes. Unfortunately, I think there's a few other more "obvious" choices that will likely wind up in the top three in the voting. On a side note though, does anyone else think Steve Mason should get a ton of consideration here? I mean, if we're talking about the player that is most valuable to his team, would Columbus even have a prayer at the playoffs if it weren't for this guy? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Shoreline Report post Posted April 9, 2009 Dats will likely be a Selke candidate and winner. Hart? Assuredly Ovechkin, especially if he passes Malkin. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dat's sick 1,002 Report post Posted April 9, 2009 (edited) If he's not in the top 5 it will be a disgrace. I don't care if there's a lot of talent on the Wings. Semin, Backstrom, Fedorov, Green, Nylander, Kozlov etc. aren't exactly garbage either. How the hell did 8 players finish above him last year? The top 4 I can understand, but who else? I also like the idea of him getting the Pearson instead of the Hart. But I can't remember the last time someone got the Hart and not the Peason though. Edited April 9, 2009 by dat's sick Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reds4Life 51 Report post Posted April 9, 2009 (edited) Datsyuk outscores his teammates by larger margin than Ovie. He is much better defensively. But AO is going to win, because NHL needs to promote superstars like Ovie. edit: Pav also has the most points of all western conference forwards. He is points per minute leader. Plus/Minus Leader. Takeaway/Giveaway differential leader. Provides Selke caliber defense. Is awesome faceoff man (57% success). He is MVP, but AO is gonna win anyways. Edited April 9, 2009 by Reds4Life Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest mindfly Report post Posted April 9, 2009 Didn't datsyuk have more points per ice time (or how you put it) so if he played as much as ovechkin he would have more points than him Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dat's sick 1,002 Report post Posted April 9, 2009 Didn't datsyuk have more points per ice time (or how you put it) so if he played as much as ovechkin he would have more points than him Yeah. Ovie actually has the lowest PPM of the top 5 in scoring. Not a huge difference though, something like .063 for Datsyuk to Ovie's .060. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egroen 384 Report post Posted April 9, 2009 Didn't datsyuk have more points per ice time (or how you put it) so if he played as much as ovechkin he would have more points than him The big one is power play minutes -- Malkin, Ovechkin and Crosby all enjoy an extra 2 minutes of power play time per game than Datsyuk. At Datsyuk's production rate on the PP, that factors out to over 20 more points. But that is hypothetical. Ultimately, the voters have to decide how many "points" is a Selke-worthy forward worth? Is it 5 points? Which makes Datsyuk more valuable than Crosby. Is it 15 points? Which puts him ahead of both Malkin and Ovechkin. Unfortunately, that answer will probably be 0 points. In fact, Thornton scored less points than Datsyuk last year and was voted ahead of him not only for the Hart, but the All Star Team as well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204 Report post Posted April 9, 2009 The fact that Lidstrom and Zetterberg are having bad seasons by their standards, and he's outscoring Hossa by 20 points really points to the fact that Datsyuk is best player on this team. Plus, of the top 3 teams in the league, Datsyuk has the most points of any player on those teams. That makes him an MVP, but Ovechkin will probably win it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Datsyerberger 279 Report post Posted April 9, 2009 Hart: Goes to the player with the most points on the crappiest team Norris: Goes to the d-man with the most points, or in the case of a close bout, the best defensive one among the 2/3 with the highest points Selke: Goes to the one with the highest points or SHGs among forward's recognized as having good defense Starting to see a pattern with the media's voting, here... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
YoungGuns1340 1 Report post Posted April 9, 2009 If those voting for the Hart actually took the time to analyze the players, they wouldn't be all over a 100 point players balls. Datsyuk's argument for the MVP is easily summed up as follows: This season, if Detroit doesn't score, Detroit doesn't win. This season, they've needed their forwards to be at their best defensively, because the defense and goaltending has been atrocious. Consequently, if Detroit doesn't have Datsyuk, how many of the 97 goals that hes contributed to aren't scored? And how many of those contributions came when we won by just one goal? It would be interesting to see how many goals and points Malkin and Crosby put up after the game was well in hand. I'm willing to bet that both the Pens and Caps have won more one-sided games this year than the Wings have. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest mindfly Report post Posted April 9, 2009 If those voting for the Hart actually took the time to analyze the players, they wouldn't be all over a 100 point players balls. Datsyuk's argument for the MVP is easily summed up as follows: This season, if Detroit doesn't score, Detroit doesn't win. This season, they've needed their forwards to be at their best defensively, because the defense and goaltending has been atrocious. Consequently, if Detroit doesn't have Datsyuk, how many of the 97 goals that hes contributed to aren't scored? And how many of those contributions came when we won by just one goal? It would be interesting to see how many goals and points Malkin and Crosby put up after the game was well in hand. I'm willing to bet that both the Pens and Caps have won more one-sided games this year than the Wings have. Just playing with the thought i think it would be fair to say that detroit would be sniffing on that 8th and final playoff spot if datsyuk wasnt on the team, anyone agree? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Shoreline Report post Posted April 9, 2009 Just playing with the thought i think it would be fair to say that detroit would be sniffing on that 8th and final playoff spot if datsyuk wasnt on the team, anyone agree? Nope. Absolutely wrong. It ain't the names that have made the Wings. It's the management and system. The Wings would likely be in the same spot, with someone else (or other players) picking up the slack. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Heroes of Hockeytown 694 Report post Posted April 9, 2009 The Wings seem strong enough that they would be able to survive the loss of any one player -- even their best player -- and still finish well within the playoff picture, with guys like Hudler and Leino stepping up to fill in. The team wouldn't be as good, but it wouldn't need to be to get to the playoffs. Or, if we assume Pavel wasn't even a Wing to begin, that's $6.7M in cap space they're looking at. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest mindfly Report post Posted April 9, 2009 PLAYING with the thought, we just removed pavel, he never existed, and wings wanted to have aloooot of capspace, now, i think the wings would just barely make the playoffs, if this funny situation occured... ofcourse in reality he would be replaced by a 6.7M player but just take him away and wings are not a very good team, thats what i meant. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
b.shanafan14 733 Report post Posted April 9, 2009 The big one is power play minutes -- Malkin, Ovechkin and Crosby all enjoy an extra 2 minutes of power play time per game than Datsyuk. At Datsyuk's production rate on the PP, that factors out to over 20 more points. But that is hypothetical. Ultimately, the voters have to decide how many "points" is a Selke-worthy forward worth? Is it 5 points? Which makes Datsyuk more valuable than Crosby. Is it 15 points? Which puts him ahead of both Malkin and Ovechkin. Unfortunately, that answer will probably be 0 points. In fact, Thornton scored less points than Datsyuk last year and was voted ahead of him not only for the Hart, but the All Star Team as well. This is my argument as well. QFT. -Pav plays less minutes overall, less on PP, more on PK. -Pav is matched against the best offensive players of the opposition. Like you said, how many points is Selke caliber defense worth..... I'm still holding out for a Pearson with Pavel. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
j.hoop 64 Report post Posted April 9, 2009 it goes to top scorer who makes the most ANYWAYS, id rather datsyuk get the selke Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Drake_Marcus 890 Report post Posted April 10, 2009 It would be interesting to see how many goals and points Malkin and Crosby put up after the game was well in hand. I'm willing to bet that both the Pens and Caps have won more one-sided games this year than the Wings have. Interesting point. It should be noted that Mike Green's scored 31 goals. 4 were game winners, none in OT, 3 were empty nets. Nick Lidstrom's scored 16 goals. 4 were games winners, 1 in OT, 1 was an empty net. So in terms of the clutch goals, Lidstrom is on par with Green. However, Green's goals are 10% superfluous (ENG), while Nick's goals are only 6% superfluous. That being said, 25% of Nick's goals were game winners, while only 13% of Green's goals were game winners. And don't go saying meaningless goals scale up as the player scores more- Ovechkin's got 55 goals and 10 game winners- thus his goals are 18% game winners. Jeff Carter's got 45 goals with 12 GWG for a 27% GWG percentage! Your point that all goals aren't created equal definitely merits closer examination, however NHL.com doesn't provide us with details on how important the goals scored are. More elaborate stats packages do exist, but they nearly always require subscriptions. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Heroes of Hockeytown 694 Report post Posted April 10, 2009 (edited) GWG is not a very trustworthy statistic. Tonight, no player got the GWG, but if a Pred had, he wouldn't have been deserving of it as Jason Arnott, whose goal was clearly the most meaningful. I don't know of any stat that can measure clutchness or whatever in any real way. Edited April 10, 2009 by Heroes of Hockeytown Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kira 451 Report post Posted April 10, 2009 If Pasha played for any other team than Detroit, the media would be all over him like fleas on a dog. You know it, I know it. But because he plays for Detroit, a team with a wealth of talent, he gets nothing. He's not flashy, or cocky - he just goes about his business and scores goals, and sets up his mates to do the same. His takeaway/giveaway ratio is tons better than Ovechkin and Malkin's, a better plus-minus, better faceoff percentage. But he'll get dissed because of where he plays. I thought it was interesting...in a poll of players done by SI, they asked "Who would you want to take the last shot in a shootout?" You couldn't vote for a teammate. 21%, the majority vote, said Pasha. And Mike Babcock has no qualms about putting him out in any situation. I do think, though, Pasha is going to have the last laugh. He's got the better chance to carry the Cup than the other two do, and I think that's the goal he's aiming for, rather than the individual awards. He's more team first than the other two. And anyway, we who know what he's capable of, appreciate him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
