Jwo 7 Report post Posted April 25, 2009 Id rather be on the power play a lot of the times then penalty killing most of the night. We don't need to add more grit to the lineup. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GMRwings1983 8,804 Report post Posted April 25, 2009 the days of a dedicated enforcer are over It's one thing to have an opinion on this issue, but it's another to make uniformed posts. There are plenty of dedicated, nontalented enforcers in the league today. Those days are not over as of yet. Pretty much. Many enforcers had to change their style of play to fit into the "New NHL." A guy that can put up 50-60 points and lay on the body is much more useful to be honest, more dimensional, more bang for your buck. Of course a guy that can score 50 to 60 points who also plays physical is more useful than an enforcer who doesn't score. That's almost a laughable point to even bring up. It's like saying that Gretzky was more valuable than Tony Twist. Duh! However, it's hard to find guys like that, and as far as I know, the Wings don't have one either. Oh, and my criticism to the other poster also goes for you. Many enforcers haven't had to change anything, and still don't have any skill, yet they do fine on just about every team in the league. Bottom line, is that even in the "new NHL" you don't necessarily have to be talented in any way to be an enforcer. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GMRwings1983 8,804 Report post Posted April 25, 2009 Id rather be on the power play a lot of the times then penalty killing most of the night. We don't need to add more grit to the lineup. Dumb penalties don't necessarily come from enforcers. Downey didn't take many from what I can remember. Maltby took a dumb penalty the other night. Nowadays in the NHL, you're going to be killing lots of penalties no matter what. It has nothing to do with enforcers, it's just the way the calls are going now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
YoungGuns1340 1 Report post Posted April 25, 2009 Who cares about Downey for the grit factor. I want him on this team for the excitement factor. I want to see more than a handful of fights. In terms of grit, Helm will be in the lineup full time next season, and that will help at least somewhat. Kid has 17 hits in 4 games playing minimally. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wings1110 184 Report post Posted April 25, 2009 Who cares about Downey for the grit factor. I want him on this team for the excitement factor. I want to see more than a handful of fights. In terms of grit, Helm will be in the lineup full time next season, and that will help at least somewhat. Kid has 17 hits in 4 games playing minimally. yea there exciting no ones leavin to go get a beer while theres a fight Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Outsider 42 Report post Posted April 25, 2009 Jebus, evul.... Couldn't even hold your water for a full day, eh? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Heroes of Hockeytown 694 Report post Posted April 25, 2009 They either will or they won't, and the change won't be dramatic either way. Much less than the Wings losing, say, Hudler or Hossa, for example. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204 Report post Posted April 25, 2009 Everyones being honest here, so I will be too, I hate Red Wings fans opinions on fighting and fighters. Oops, there it is. I think with how Abdelkader has performed for Grand Rapids and Helm for us, just cut Kopecky and add someone like Neil or that esque, because they are available this offseason, and we'd be fine. A healthy Lilja helps on the back end too. I dont think it's a big deal, sign Mac and Downs to minor league deals in case we need them for games against St Lou, Anaheim etc. in the regular season. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
titanium2 867 Report post Posted April 25, 2009 oh if only I had a nickel for every time... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204 Report post Posted April 25, 2009 Who cares about Downey for the grit factor. I want him on this team for the excitement factor. I want to see more than a handful of fights. In terms of grit, Helm will be in the lineup full time next season, and that will help at least somewhat. Kid has 17 hits in 4 games playing minimally. Not even just the number, but how they've all been HUGE hits, like replayed over and overrr. Helm's a beauty, I knew he'd be a Red Wing when I watched him at the WJC but man, didnt think he'd have this impact Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rivalred 630 Report post Posted April 25, 2009 (edited) It's one thing to have an opinion on this issue, but it's another to make uniformed posts. There are plenty of dedicated, nontalented enforcers in the league today. Those days are not over as of yet. Of course a guy that can score 50 to 60 points who also plays physical is more useful than an enforcer who doesn't score. That's almost a laughable point to even bring up. It's like saying that Gretzky was more valuable than Tony Twist. Duh! However, it's hard to find guys like that, and as far as I know, the Wings don't have one either. Oh, and my criticism to the other poster also goes for you. Many enforcers haven't had to change anything, and still don't have any skill, yet they do fine on just about every team in the league. Bottom line, is that even in the "new NHL" you don't necessarily have to be talented in any way to be an enforcer. No need for the Wings to have an enforcer. Thanks for proving my point. Wed Wings play solid 2 way hockey and have southern grits built in. What more could you ask for? Edited April 25, 2009 by Rivalred Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GMRwings1983 8,804 Report post Posted April 25, 2009 No need for the Wings to have an enforcer. Thanks for proving my point. Wed Wings play solid 2 way hockey and have southern grits built in. What more could you ask for? Is that what I said? There are no guys in the league who are enforcers that can score 50 to 60 points. And please don't say Lucic cause he's not an enforcer. Geez, talk about twisting my words around to prove your point. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rivalred 630 Report post Posted April 25, 2009 Bob Probert: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=4391 Man was an enforcer and could score. Of course that was in the old NHL. My point, the Wed Wings have so many players that play good 2-way hockey and play physical when need be, we have no need for an enforcer. And yes, enforcers had to change the way they played in the new NHL. Good example, Bertuzzi. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dabura 12,232 Report post Posted April 25, 2009 Poor thread. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GMRwings1983 8,804 Report post Posted April 25, 2009 Bob Probert: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=4391 Man was an enforcer and could score. Of course that was in the old NHL. My point, the Wed Wings have so many players that play good 2-way hockey and play physical when need be, we have no need for an enforcer. And yes, enforcers had to change the way they played in the new NHL. Good example, Bertuzzi. I hope you're joking. Bertuzzi has never been an enforcer. If you're not joking, then you have a completely different definition of what an enforcer is than most people do, thus the whole conversation between us will result in miscommunication. Enforcers haven't changed at all. There's plenty of untalented goons still playing in the NHL. It's not going to change until the league bans fighting altogether. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rivalred 630 Report post Posted April 25, 2009 I hope you're joking. Bertuzzi has never been an enforcer. If you're not joking, then you have a completely different definition of what an enforcer is than most people do, thus the whole conversation between us will result in miscommunication. Enforcers haven't changed at all. There's plenty of untalented goons still playing in the NHL. It's not going to change until the league bans fighting altogether. When is the last time the Wings had a untalented goon in their lineup for a full season? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GMRwings1983 8,804 Report post Posted April 25, 2009 When is the last time the Wings had a untalented goon in their lineup for a full season? Depends on what you call a full season. Downey and McCarty aren't that talented, and the two of them combined played the full season last year. Besides, I was responding to your sweeping comments about enforcers around the league in general, and not just how it relates to the Wings. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rivalred 630 Report post Posted April 25, 2009 (edited) Depends on what you call a full season. Downey and McCarty aren't that talented, and the two of them combined played the full season last year. Besides, I was responding to your sweeping comments about enforcers around the league in general, and not just how it relates to the Wings. I do not compare the Wings to the rest of the league because I think the Detroit Organization is the best managed and talented one around. You can not compare McCarty to Downey. McCarty was a good 2 way player in his prime while being an enforcer. He could put up points, maybe not 60 in a season, but close to 50: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=3515 And 2 players playing 1/2 season combining to play a full season makes no sense once again. That is 2 roster spots being taken up and paying 2 players salaries. Oh yeah, McCarty's best years were before the "New NHL". Sames goes for Lapointe. Going to ask again, when was the last time the Wings had a true enforcer on the lineup, who was a regular for an entire season, did not play 2 way hockey, and was there to "goon it up" as you put it Edited April 25, 2009 by Rivalred Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GMRwings1983 8,804 Report post Posted April 25, 2009 I do not compare the Wings to the rest of the league because I think the Detroit Organization is the best managed and talented one around. You can not compare McCarty to Downey. McCarty was a good 2 way player in his prime while being an enforcer. He could put up points, maybe not 60 in a season, but close to 50: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=3515 And 2 players playing 1/2 season combining to play a full season makes no sense once again. That is 2 roster spots being taken up and paying 2 players salaries. Oh yeah, McCarty's best years were before the "New NHL". Sames goes for Lapointe. Going to ask again, when was the last time the Wings had a true enforcer on the lineup, who was a regular for an entire season, did not play 2 way hockey, and was there to "goon it up" as you put it If you only want to talk about the Wings, then don't talk about enforcers in general changing in the "new NHL". That was my biggest problem with your post. Oh, and McCarty last year was not a talented player anymore, so that's why I grouped him in with Downey, and it doesn't matter that they split the season. Point was we had an untalented player on the roster the entire season, whose main job was to fight and play physical hockey. As far as one goon playing the entire season and playoffs for the Wings, we obviously haven't had one for a long time, but now you're narrowing the definition just to prove an obvious point. The OP would have never started this thread if that was something the Wings did often in recent memory. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rivalred 630 Report post Posted April 25, 2009 (edited) If you only want to talk about the Wings, then don't talk about enforcers in general changing in the "new NHL". That was my biggest problem with your post. Oh, and McCarty last year was not a talented player anymore, so that's why I grouped him in with Downey, and it doesn't matter that they split the season. Point was we had an untalented player on the roster the entire season, whose main job was to fight and play physical hockey. As far as one goon playing the entire season and playoffs for the Wings, we obviously haven't had one for a long time, but now you're narrowing the definition just to prove an obvious point. The OP would have never started this thread if that was something the Wings did often in recent memory. Wings have not had one in 10+ years which spans the changes from the old NHL to the new NHL. Grouping McCarty with Downey last year is still irrelevant as McCarty is past his prime and Downey is currently in his prime. Comparing a young player who is currently in their prime to a older player past their prime makes no sense. The new "NHL" applies to the Wings as do the rules. Too many holes in this thread. This organization is about 2 way hockey and will be for sometime. The Wings are not coached or built like the Wild, Edmonton, or other teams. Chemistry and dynamics is different and very unique as we like offensive minded D, defensive minded F, and etc. Edited April 25, 2009 by Rivalred Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dabura 12,232 Report post Posted April 25, 2009 Enforcers haven't changed at all. The place of the enforcer in the NHL has changed. Specifically, it's gotten a lot harder for him; the game isn't as kind to him as it once was. Financial realities as well as the realities of the dynamics of the "new game" may have not entirely phased out goons -- but they're a dying breed. As people have said already, if you want to goon it up in the new NHL, you typically need to be able to contribute in other ways as well. There are exceptions, but not many. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GMRwings1983 8,804 Report post Posted April 25, 2009 The place of the enforcer in the NHL has changed. Specifically, it's gotten a lot harder for him; the game isn't as kind to him as it once was. Financial realities as well as the realities of the dynamics of the "new game" may have not entirely phased out goons -- but they're a dying breed. As people have said already, if you want to goon it up in the new NHL, you typically need to be able to contribute in other ways as well. There are exceptions, but not many. There is truth in whay you say, but it still seems like every team has a guy that is just there to fight. The problem (or at least fans like me see it as a problem) is that guys like that don't exist to the same extent that they used to. My beef is when people make it sound like there's no enforcers at all in the game, unless they are talented in other ways, or for that matter I hate it when people make players like Lucic into enforcers. True enforcers do still exist, and if we dressed one in place of some useless 4th liner like Kopecky, I don't see how that would lessen the Wings' greatness or skilled style in any way, especially since it happened only last year. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rivalred 630 Report post Posted April 25, 2009 (edited) There is truth in whay you say, but it still seems like every team has a guy that is just there to fight. The problem (or at least fans like me see it as a problem) is that guys like that don't exist to the same extent that they used to. My beef is when people make it sound like there's no enforcers at all in the game, unless they are talented in other ways, or for that matter I hate it when people make players like Lucic into enforcers. True enforcers do still exist, and if we dressed one in place of some useless 4th liner like Kopecky, I don't see how that would lessen the Wings' greatness or skilled style in any way, especially since it happened only last year. Does this enforcer has speed? Can he play 2 way hockey? Edited April 25, 2009 by Rivalred Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204 Report post Posted April 25, 2009 Does this enforcer has speed? Can he play 2 way hockey? I understand where your coming from RR, but Kopecky is a joke, skates like a horse and is not fast in any sense of the word. A guy like Colten Orr would fit in fine in place of Kopecky and not hurt this club. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rivalred 630 Report post Posted April 25, 2009 (edited) I understand where your coming from RR, but Kopecky is a joke, skates like a horse and is not fast in any sense of the word. A guy like Colten Orr would fit in fine in place of Kopecky and not hurt this club. Well you did not ask me how I feel about Kopecky. You can ask Doggy, HR40, Hockey Matters, and etc. I can not stand him taking up space on our roster. I would rather have Helm, Leino, and Drake on our 4th line. Once again, all 3 players have more talent than "you know who." Edited April 25, 2009 by Rivalred Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
