Coyotes staying in Phoenix

[CenterIce 83]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=4261699

[Manoir 70]

Great news!!

[Coolio Mendez 7]

I just saw that! I think it is great news for Phx and the NHL and every sports league.

Hopefully they embrace them.....if not they can go throught the process CORRECTLY!

I have never been to their arena, apparently it is very poor location!

[Z Winged Dangler 2,082]

they will last one more year and the nhl will be forced to relocate to somewhere that cares about hockey.

apparently for bettman, a 200 person protest is enough to keep the coyotes in phoenix.

great news my ass. they never should have left winnipeg. where was gary then? ******* gnome cocksucker!

[Chelios57 31]

Fantastic news! Random millionaires shouldn't be able to decide the fate of teams in the league!!

"Hey I have an insane amount of money... I'm going to move the Red Wings to Mackinac Island!" That's pretty much Balsillies logic...

[C-TownWing 0]

they will last one more year and the nhl will be forced to relocate to somewhere that cares about hockey.

How about the team wins a few damn games before blaming the market?

There's seriously about 5 NHL cities where people would show up regardless of whether the team wins. Just because Phoenix is in the other 25 doesn't mean it can't support a team.

But good news. I like Balsillie, I like his passion for the game, I think Canada deserves another team (preferably in Winnipeg), but this was just the wrong way to do it.

[Coolio Mendez 7]

they will last one more year and the nhl will be forced to relocate to somewhere that cares about hockey.

apparently for bettman, a 200 person protest is enough to keep the coyotes in phoenix.

great news my ass. they never should have left winnipeg. where was gary then? ******* gnome cocksucker!

You do know Bettman was NOT commish when Phoenix was placed in Phoenix, right?

Attendance was NEVER as issue for the Nordiques or the Jets, corporate dollars, and low income ticket buyers were the issues. Winnipeg has a relatively low average income per family compared to the other cities of comparable size, and fewer corporate dollars means seast would be more expensive.

Expensive seats combined with a low income, means that for most Winnipegonians, the prices would be out of reach.

The Jets were among the lowest priced tickets when they left, and even as they raised prices every year, their season ticket base dropped.

Based on the 2005 report, the average ticket price would be well over $100 in order for Winnipeg to be able to sustain a team, that would make the Jets the most expensive seat.

Every business person who has done an analysis of today's NHL and today's Winnipeg says Winnipeg wouldn't survive in the NHL. Wayne Gretzky told the Economic Club of Toronto that Winnipeg doesn't stand a chance (and as an owner, he knows what the numbers are). It's time for people in Winnipeg to realize that unless their city grows (it also has grown very little in the last 13 years according to StatsCan (regardless of what the city of Winnipeg tells people) it's not in the cards.

Winnipeg deserves a team, but unfortunately, cannot afford it.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Coolio Mendez

[Z Winged Dangler 2,082]

You do know Bettman was NOT commish when Phoenix was placed in Phoenix, right?

Attendance was NEVER as issue for the Nordiques or the Jets, corporate dollars, and low income ticket buyers were the issues. Winnipeg has a relatively low average income per family compared to the other cities of comparable size, and fewer corporate dollars means seast would be more expensive.

Expensive seats combined with a low income, means that for most Winnipegonians, the prices would be out of reach.

The Jets were among the lowest priced tickets when they left, and even as they raised prices every year, their season ticket base dropped.

Based on the 2005 report, the average ticket price would be well over $100 in order for Winnipeg to be able to sustain a team, that would make the Jets the most expensive seat.

Every business person who has done an analysis of today's NHL and today's Winnipeg says Winnipeg wouldn't survive in the NHL. Wayne Gretzky told the Economic Club of Toronto that Winnipeg doesn't stand a chance (and as an owner, he knows what the numbers are). It's time for people in Winnipeg to realize that unless their city grows (it also has grown very little in the last 13 years according to StatsCan (regardless of what the city of Winnipeg tells people) it's not in the cards.

Winnipeg deserves a team, but unfortunately, cannot afford it.

winnipeg may not be able to support a team, but neither can phoenix. they need to relocate where there's a fanbase.

[weGotTheCup89 41]

You do know Bettman was NOT commish when Phoenix was placed in Phoenix, right?

How do you figure? The Jets played in Winnipeg through the 1996 season, and Gary Bettman became commissioner on June 1, 1993. Since we're in the A.D.'s already and not the B.C. anymore, 1996 came after 1993. Unless you imply that they decided to move the team 3 years before it happened? Please explain.

[Z Winged Dangler 2,082]

How do you figure? The Jets played in Winnipeg through the 1996 season, and Gary Bettman became commissioner on June 1, 1993. Since we're in the A.D.'s already and not the B.C. anymore, 1996 came after 1993. Unless you imply that they decided to move the team 3 years before it happened? Please explain.

hmmm...good catch sir

yes, please do explain as i ask again....where was bettman then. i was at the jets farewell...i was young and can't remember if bettman was there (probably not) but he didn't hesitate to take the jets and nordiques and move them to the U.S. i'd like to see those southern states make it on their own without bettman's revenue sharing and league funding for "his" teams.

the only canadian team he saved was ottawa. taking away the team from the nations capital would be a national disaster.

[Coolio Mendez 7]

How do you figure? The Jets played in Winnipeg through the 1996 season, and Gary Bettman became commissioner on June 1, 1993. Since we're in the A.D.'s already and not the B.C. anymore, 1996 came after 1993. Unless you imply that they decided to move the team 3 years before it happened? Please explain.

The Winnipeg Jets put themselves up for sale in June 1992 (John Ziegler was the NHL's president at the time). The team was selling out the arena, however revenues weren't keeping pace with the increase in salaries because people wouldn't pay increased ticket prices and they were unable to obtain more corporate sponsorship. The Shenkarow group was looking to keep the team in Winnipeg. Through 3 years, there were no offers from any prospective buyers to keep them in Winnipeg. There was an offer from a Toronto group, but they wanted to move the team to Atlanta. There was an offer from a Calgary group, who wanted to move the team to Minneapolis (who had just lost the North Stars). In 1995, the Shenkarow group opened up the bidding for the franchise to all comers. A group from Phoenix led by Steven Gluckstern and Richard Burke eventually bought the team (at a lower price than asked) and moved the team to Phoenix.

At the time, the other 25 owners had to agree to the sale, and 22 agreed (Boston, Chicago, and Philadelphia objected as Phoenix was short-listed for the 1997 expansion and they wanted their cut of the expansion fees).

[Z Winged Dangler 2,082]

The Winnipeg Jets put themselves up for sale in June 1992 (John Ziegler was the NHL's president at the time). The team was selling out the arena, however revenues weren't keeping pace with the increase in salaries because people wouldn't pay increased ticket prices and they were unable to obtain more corporate sponsorship. The Shenkarow group was looking to keep the team in Winnipeg. Through 3 years, there were no offers from any prospective buyers to keep them in Winnipeg. There was an offer from a Toronto group, but they wanted to move the team to Atlanta. There was an offer from a Calgary group, who wanted to move the team to Minneapolis (who had just lost the North Stars). In 1995, the Shenkarow group opened up the bidding for the franchise to all comers. A group from Phoenix led by Steven Gluckstern and Richard Burke eventually bought the team (at a lower price than asked) and moved the team to Phoenix.

At the time, the other 25 owners had to agree to the sale, and 22 agreed (Boston, Chicago, and Philadelphia objected as Phoenix was short-listed for the 1997 expansion and they wanted their cut of the expansion fees).

good job on the research. no team for winnipeg, but for s***'s sake get them out of phoenix

[TheOwl 77]

Last time I checked the NHL was a business, and when a part of your business has lost hundreds of millions of dollars over a decade, and has never made any money, you cut it out. Look at the Wild, now that's a successful franchise. Sold-out every game in their history, even with marginal success.

[psmitty 0]

Fantastic news! Random millionaires shouldn't be able to decide the fate of teams in the league!!

"Hey I have an insane amount of money... I'm going to move the Red Wings to Mackinac Island!" That's pretty much Balsillies logic...

I would argue that incompetent commissioners should not try to expand a game played on ice into a place surrounded by sand. Selling hockey in the desert is not unlike selling bikini's and air conditioners to an Eskimo, meaning it is a tough sell. A proven CEO (ei, one whose company has not declared bankruptcy and begged for government scraps) with an idea to relocate them into a market where an NHL franchise would be a license to print money makes sense to me. Sort of like a waitress trying to convince 2 people at a table to buy a beer when you have 5 booths of college guys screaming for pitchers. Make your money already.

I like Winnipeg but like Quebec City they just don't have the surrounding population or the corporate support. Southern Ontario is a different story.

Edited June 16, 2009 by psmitty

[The Winged Wheel 0]

Bring em to Vegas so I don't have to drive to Anaheim of all places to watch the Wings play.

[Cern 0]

Fantastic news! Random millionaires shouldn't be able to decide the fate of teams in the league!!

"Hey I have an insane amount of money... I'm going to move the Red Wings to Mackinac Island!" That's pretty much Balsillies logic...

-implying that Phoenix will EVER make money

-implying that Detroit isn't making insane amounts of money and hence proposing a move (unlike a proposal to move, say, Phoenix) would make no sense whatsoever

-implying that a team in Hamilton wouldn't be a money-printing machine, a fact that would benefit the league as a whole.

But hey, our team gets to continue to steadily piss its money into a toilet in order to keep that black hole of a franchise that noone cares about afloat instead of an option that all but guarantees instant revenue, what's not to celebrate about that?

This news depresses me almost as much as the Wings losing the finals, let alone knowing that people are actually HAPPY about the League flushing its own credibility down the drain by refusing to accept that the Coyotes being where they are benefits nobody whatsoever.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Cern

[mru22 1]

I live here in Phoenix and let me say the support for the team is not good. And Gretzky only has his job because of his hall of fame status. There are many people that at this point would rather have them leave and get a team from scratch.

When Coyotes first came here, the fans tried to support them but over the years they have been horrible and they keep the same lame coach. Sorry but Wayne has to go.

And for the record phoenix is full of fair weather fans. Most people are not from here and they just go with what is popular and whos winning. Its very reflective of the music scene which is nothing but crappy corporate rock.

The baseball team is horrible too. It was built for one year and that was 8 years ago, and ever since it has been losing money.

My $.02.

[evilmrt 636]

And for the record phoenix is full of fair weather fans. Most people are not from here and they just go with what is popular and whos winning. Its very reflective of the music scene which is nothing but crappy corporate rock.

I couldn't agree more. The loyalty of the city's sports fans lacks foundation, just like mru22 noted about the music scene (and in my opinion, culture in general in Phoenix). The only way I can see this team succeeding is to quickly put them into the playoffs (beyond the first round), and do it consistently. Not to mention improving the piss-poor marketing and tv/radio presence the Yotes have in Arizona. I live in the largest city in the whole northern half of the state, and there is NO radio station that carries Coyotes games!!! Can you guys see that happening in Michigan? They had a very large amount of games that were not televised at all last season. Also, with the coaching, management, and players that they have....I cannot realistically see a turnaround happening. Yes, some owner with a knack for turning crap into gold could take over, but it seems like a long shot. Arizona hockey fans think this ruling by Judge Baum is a success, and it is...partially. What they don't recognize is that now the likelyhood of the team FOLDING altogether has gone up significantly.

I hope the organization lives on, but none of this makes good business sense. The league is full of itself.

[evilmrt 636]

The logo thread got me thinking about the Yotes trying to succeed in Phoenix. The logo and color scheme is pretty lame, and I think once a new owner comes in (if that even happens) and cleans house, he should make a change.

But why stop at just the logo and colors? Why not change the name?

I think that the Roadrunners name is a much better choice, and since the team folded earlier this year, they should be able to buy the rights for a song. Thats the old WHA/WHL logo, by the way. I think its better than the latest ECHL version. It could use some updating.

My question is, to any one who knows out there....can new ownership buy the rights to a defunct ECHL team name and change an existing NHL team's name to it?

[DesertRatWingsFan 0]

I have to unfoutunately agree that it is hard to sell hockey in Phoenix. Not because its a desert, but because there are a lot of transplants here. As i said in the "NHL as a product" thread, the team needs to be better to pull people in and get them hooked. Selling todays Coyotes is like trying to sell someone a s*** sandwich. They also really f***ed up when they put the arena in California to save a little dough on land. The fact of the matter is, that most of the existing hockey fans seem to live in the East Valley. Maybe if the city's could get their heads out of their fiscal asses and get the rail going out to Westgate it would make a difference, but who knows. I am glad that they are staying but without some major reform I am afraid that it wont amount to much. Bottom line is, Wayne needs to go, something has to be done about location, and the team needs to contend. When they contend people get interested, I have seen it. You simply aren't going to pull transplant fans from their old teams without some success.

[dragonballgtz 273]

I moved from Detroit to Flagstaff, AZ which is about an hour and a half from phoenix but no one cares about hockey in any of the 2 towns from the feedback I got. Some where interested when Wayne started to coach but thats it. Hell most people did not even know about the playoffs being over or even started.

Maybe there might be some bandwagon fans there if they start to do good you never know.

[VM1138 1,921]

Fantastic news! Random millionaires shouldn't be able to decide the fate of teams in the league!!

"Hey I have an insane amount of money... I'm going to move the Red Wings to Mackinac Island!" That's pretty much Balsillies logic...

Erm....no. His logic is "Hey, this team sucks and is hemmoragging money and nobody goes to watch them, maybe I'll move them someplace where they WILL watch the team and make it a success!"

It's most certainly NOT like "Hey, I should take one of the most successful teams in sports history and move it to an isolated area where they will be less viable just because I have money!"

Phoenix needs to move and this is getting ridiculous how Bettman is protecting them.

[zata20 4]

Bettman doesn't want to admit that moving a team to Phoenix was a complete failure. Yes, Balsillie isn't going about it the right way, but this team hasn't made money since they've been in the league. Like someone else stated before, THIS IS A BUSINESS. If your product fails,you move on and try something else.

[drwscc 212]

I think the whole problem with the situation is Balsille. If he would just play by the rules, he'd get his team and we could stop hearing him whine about it.

Step 1. Get approval from BOG to buy the team.

Step 2. Buy Team

Step 3. Get approval from BOG to move team.

Step 4. Move team.

Is that really all that complicated? I mean seriously. This is the process for buying a team, and has been for a long time. Just because you're rich and have a good idea doesn't mean you don't need to follow the established rules.

[Johnny Law 15]

Bettman doesn't want to admit that moving a team to Phoenix was a complete failure. Yes, Balsillie isn't going about it the right way, but this team hasn't made money since they've been in the league. Like someone else stated before, THIS IS A BUSINESS. If your product fails,you move on and try something else.

It has nothing to do with any perceived bs between Bettman and Balsillie, it has everything to do with who controls how and when teams move. At the end of the day the most important thing about this case is that the NHL and the board of governors controls how and when teams move and that bankruptcy is not viable option around this. Hence the amicus briefs of the NFL, NBA and MLB.

The league is certainly a business but your concept of how large businesses work is out of whack, Phoenix was always going to be a loss leader for the NHL for a decent amount of time. The reason for southern expansion was not foremost to make money but rather to increase the potential fan base and draw new fans to the game from non-traditional markets.

If you look into the actual numbers and figures from the board of governors study on relocation and expansion the best options for relocation are Vegas and Kansas City. Another team in the greater Toronto area is better served by expansion.