Zherdev to KHL

[mmamolo 287]

Would it be unfair to blame Bettman for the KHL's success in stealing players?

I'd say he's at least partly to blame. Over expansion into non-hcoeky markets has caused financial perail for many teams which in turn had a negative effect on the overall league revenues and then created a cap. Due to the cap mid level NHLers aren't receiving the money they feel they deserve and are now migrating to the KHL. So yeah, in my opinion he definitely shares a large portion of the blame.

[Echolalia 2,961]

Would it be unfair to blame Bettman for the KHL's success in stealing players?

I think so. A cap was more or less required to put the league in good financial standing. More money is being put into "bottom-feeding" teams because they have a better chance at success, and the successful teams are already bringing in income. Its a much more financially efficient league. Its just unfortunate that the KHL is taking advantage of a necessary self-imposed limitation.

[titanium2 867]

Beware 2014, which is when Pav becomes a UFA.

[Guest Shoreline]

I'd say he's at least partly to blame. Over expansion into non-hcoeky markets has caused financial perail for many teams which in turn had a negative effect on the overall league revenues and then created a cap. Due to the cap mid level NHLers aren't receiving the money they feel they deserve and are now migrating to the KHL. So yeah, in my opinion he definitely shares a large portion of the blame.

It's all Bettman's fault for the Rangers walking away from Zherdev's arbitration award (which is based on the market and his contributions, duh), or him possibly exercising an option (on his own!) to go to Russia following that.. uh.. what? How the flying f*** is this Bettman's fault?

And to this post above, players felt they deserved over 10-15m per season which was far more than any team but the Detroit Red Wings and New York Rangers could really afford to pay people without going down the toilet especially fast.

You know, non hockey markets like Edmonton, Vancouver, Dallas, Chicago, Buffalo, Ottawa, and plenty more (including the actual areas with extremely little hockey push that Bettman stupidly wanted to push NHL teams to) could not continue spending the money they were to try and keep up with the teams that had the most superior payrolls. There were certainly many viable teams that would have gone down had Bettman and the NHL not pursued a cap. Eventually the players caved in because they knew there needed to be one and spending got way out of control and unsustainable. It's popular to blame Bettman for things and he does bear the brunt of a lot of issues that happened in the NHL, but he's not responsible for the transactions between owners and players to put teams into bankruptcy. Unfortunately the NHL as a whole, which includes owners, who Bettman is working for, understood that players were earning far more than their market value.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Bad news. Radulov, Hudler, Zherdev. Young up and coming players with the potential to be star players shouldn't be getting pouched. The KHL had every right to sign Zherdev, but it really sucks for the NHL that this trend continues.

[mmamolo 287]

It's all Bettman's fault for the Rangers walking away from Zherdev's arbitration award (which is based on the market and his contributions, duh), or him possibly exercising an option (on his own!) to go to Russia following that.. uh.. what? How the flying f*** is this Bettman's fault?

And to this post above, players felt they deserved over 10-15m per season which was far more than any team but the Detroit Red Wings and New York Rangers could really afford to pay people without going down the toilet especially fast.

You know, non hockey markets like Edmonton, Vancouver, Dallas, Chicago, Buffalo, Ottawa, and plenty more (including the actual areas with extremely little hockey push that Bettman stupidly wanted to push NHL teams to) could not continue spending the money they were to try and keep up with the teams that had the most superior payrolls. There were certainly many viable teams that would have gone down had Bettman and the NHL not pursued a cap. Eventually the players caved in because they knew there needed to be one and spending got way out of control and unsustainable. It's popular to blame Bettman for things and he does bear the brunt of a lot of issues that happened in the NHL, but he's not responsible for the transactions between owners and players to put teams into bankruptcy. Unfortunately the NHL as a whole, which includes owners, who Bettman is working for, understood that players were earning far more than their market value.

Im not saying that at the time, with the given situation, that a cap wasnt the best option to undertake. I agree with you that it was absolutely necessary. But the point was that that situation was created in part by Bettman's overexpansion. By no means am I full out saying it is Bettman's fault the Rangers walked away from Zherdev's contract as when it coems right down to it it was the Rangers decision. What I am saying is that Bettman helped create this situation that played a large role in the Rangers decision. That is why I wrote that Bettman is partly to blame.

In my opinion Bettman with his over expansion and into non-traditional hockey markets that couldnt, and are still having trouble, supporting teams created a league that didnt have the revenue to support itself. That created a situation where a cap had to be introduced. Now with the cap in place we have a situation where teams decisions to accept or walk away from arbitrators salary awards are largely influenced by the fact they must structure their team to work within the cap system. Again, this is a situation that Bettman (and the owners) helped create. So yes, I do think he is partly to blame. Not fully, but partly.

I also think that the Owner's and GMs are partly to blame too. At a time when salaries were rising owners and GMs awarded and over paid players for their services, thus driving the market value of players up. Each year when a UFA gets overpaid it has a ripple effect throughout the league. Next year's crop of UFAs look at previous signings as benchmarks to determine their own market value and arbitrators do the same when awarding salaries. By over paying players and driving their market values up the Owners (who gave their GMs permission) helped cause the current situation as well. The players by no means are guilt free in the situation either. When players only look for the biggest pay day it hinders the whole system as well.

Bettman, Owners, GMs, and players are all partly to blame. That previous post only asked if Bettman was to blame so I only commented on him sharing part of the blame. I just happen to think of all the parties involved that he carries the bulk of the blame.

[Broken 16 381]

Bad news. Radulov, Hudler, Zherdev. Young up and coming players with the potential to be star players shouldn't be getting pouched. The KHL had every right to sign Zherdev, but it really sucks for the NHL that this trend continues.

Ya... sucks for the NHL. But could potentially be just what us fans have been hoping for. The more players that go over there the better, imo. It will force the hand of the NHL, hopefully and force them to compete. The NHL NOT having a monopoly on pro hockey could potentially be a great, great thing for the fans. That's what I'm hanging on to anyway.

[Z Winged Dangler 2,082]

Bad news. Radulov, Hudler, Zherdev. Young up and coming players with the potential to be star players shouldn't be getting pouched. The KHL had every right to sign Zherdev, but it really sucks for the NHL that this trend continues.

yup, and it looks like it won't be ending anytime soon...or atleast until the cap is at about 70 million. is it really fair that the teams that make all the money can't spend the money they want to? NO! the teams that generate revenue should be able to reach into their deep pockets and throw money around. teams like phoenix should have garbage teams because they can't afford to ice a good team.

[mmamolo 287]

yup, and it looks like it won't be ending anytime soon...or atleast until the cap is at about 70 million. is it really fair that the teams that make all the money can't spend the money they want to? NO! the teams that generate revenue should be able to reach into their deep pockets and throw money around. teams like phoenix should have garbage teams because they can't afford to ice a good team.

Exactly. It should be a free enterprise. I think revenues generated by tv deals etc shoudl be split evenly across the board but teams that generate revenue from playoff home games, merchandise, ticket sales etc should have the ability to spend their money. That's why I would even be open to the idea of a luxury tax.

Pro Sports should have systems in place to reward succesful franchises, not hinder them. THe deck is stacked against certain teams. Teams should be rewarded for drafting well with cap reductions in home grown talent/retention. Teams should be rewarded for ticket sales and playoff runs and should be allowed to spend their money.

[Guest Shoreline]

Im not saying that at the time, with the given situation, that a cap wasnt the best option to undertake. I agree with you that it was absolutely necessary. But the point was that that situation was created in part by Bettman's overexpansion. By no means am I full out saying it is Bettman's fault the Rangers walked away from Zherdev's contract as when it coems right down to it it was the Rangers decision. What I am saying is that Bettman helped create this situation that played a large role in the Rangers decision. That is why I wrote that Bettman is partly to blame.

In my opinion Bettman with his over expansion and into non-traditional hockey markets that couldnt, and are still having trouble, supporting teams created a league that didnt have the revenue to support itself. That created a situation where a cap had to be introduced. Now with the cap in place we have a situation where teams decisions to accept or walk away from arbitrators salary awards are largely influenced by the fact they must structure their team to work within the cap system. Again, this is a situation that Bettman (and the owners) helped create. So yes, I do think he is partly to blame. Not fully, but partly.

I also think that the Owner's and GMs are partly to blame too. At a time when salaries were rising owners and GMs awarded and over paid players for their services, thus driving the market value of players up. Each year when a UFA gets overpaid it has a ripple effect throughout the league. Next year's crop of UFAs look at previous signings as benchmarks to determine their own market value and arbitrators do the same when awarding salaries. By over paying players and driving their market values up the Owners (who gave their GMs permission) helped cause the current situation as well. The players by no means are guilt free in the situation either. When players only look for the biggest pay day it hinders the whole system as well.

Bettman, Owners, GMs, and players are all partly to blame. That previous post only asked if Bettman was to blame so I only commented on him sharing part of the blame. I just happen to think of all the parties involved that he carries the bulk of the blame.

I do agree with a lot of the later parts of your post, but what I don't understand is how you think Bettman could have created the situation with Zherdev. It could have been very possible Zherdev was in the mindset of Rangers-or-KHL, which really has nothing to do with him at all but a player exercising his free right to sign with any team or league he wishes when a team he's with backs away from his arbitration award. If the blame is on Bettman for the cap, um, it's on the owners, who knew they needed the cap (who would know better about spending too much than the owners who have their own books/statements?), and Bettman doing their bidding.

I will agree with, as well, whoever keeps pointing out in every KHL topic that we're going to be down to a handful of Russians pretty soon at the rate this is happening.

[mmamolo 287]

I do agree with a lot of the later parts of your post, but what I don't understand is how you think Bettman could have created the situation with Zherdev. It could have been very possible Zherdev was in the mindset of Rangers-or-KHL, which really has nothing to do with him at all but a player exercising his free right to sign with any team or league he wishes when a team he's with backs away from his arbitration award. If the blame is on Bettman for the cap, um, it's on the owners, who knew they needed the cap (who would know better about spending too much than the owners who have their own books/statements?), and Bettman doing their bidding.

I will agree with, as well, whoever keeps pointing out in every KHL topic that we're going to be down to a handful of Russians pretty soon at the rate this is happening.

I'm not saying Bettman is direcotly to blame for the Rangers walking away from Zherdev's contract as it was their choice. Im also not saying Bettman is to blame for Zherdev choosing to sign with the KHL, which he has every right to do. I'm just saying Bettman played a role in creating the current cap world and financial situation the NHL is in which. The financial position (team revenues, league revenues, and the cap) played a significant role in the Rangers choosing to walk away from Zherdev. Teams inability to pay players what the players feel they are worth and what the teams could financially afford (strictly from a monetary sense, not a cap sense) were factors (most likely) in Zherdev (and Hudler) going to the KHL (for supposed bigger pay days). Again, Bettman is not directly to blame but the cap world and financial situation of the league (which forced a cap into the NHL) is partly to blame for players opting for bigger paydays in the KHL. Reiterating from my previous post, all parties share some blame in the situation. The owners/GMs for over spending in the pre-cap world on players who did not deserve it (paying above true market value for players), players for going to the highest bidders and Bettman for bidding on behalf of the owners and over expanding thus creating more teams in financial dispair and having a smaller % of league shared revenues to each team.

[Pskov Wings Fan 71]

I blame the salary cap and Bettman. He is ruining the NHL. These NHL pro-athletes look around at other sport pro-athletes, like NBA and see they are making much better money that doesn't destroy the body like hockey does... yet NHL players get paid peanuts compared to other sports.

I would run off to a better paying job too, who wouldn't?

The Salary cap should be $60 - $70 million

But it appears that most of NHL team cannot get enough revenue to have such payroll.

[Pskov Wings Fan 71]

Im not sure but does anyone know if the NHL has, or has discussed, introducing profit sharing throughout the league. Profit sharing through their TV deal would enable the cap to go up while giving smaller market teams money to spend and stay competitive.

I am fairly certain there is a form of profit sharing in NHL.

The TV deal NHL has sucks. I don't think there is much there to share. The league gets most of its revenue from ticket sales.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Saw that coming from a mile away, good riddance. Your taking all these soft players no one cares about, so give the NHL back Jammy!!

[mmamolo 287]

I am fairly certain there is a form of profit sharing in NHL.

The TV deal NHL has sucks. I don't think there is much there to share. The league gets most of its revenue from ticket sales.

Do you know when the current tv deal ends? I would imagine, coming out of a lockout, that the tv deal wouldnt be so hot but recent years should give the NHL some more bargaining power to ensure a more lucrative deal in the future.

[Pskov Wings Fan 71]

Do you know when the current tv deal ends? I would imagine, coming out of a lockout, that the tv deal wouldnt be so hot but recent years should give the NHL some more bargaining power to ensure a more lucrative deal in the future.

"In 2007, the NHL signed an agreement to extend the NHL on Versus to the 2010–2011 season."

[mmamolo 287]

"In 2007, the NHL signed an agreement to extend the NHL on Versus to the 2010–2011 season."

Right on, thanks

[Guest Shoreline]

I'm not saying Bettman is direcotly to blame for the Rangers walking away from Zherdev's contract as it was their choice. Im also not saying Bettman is to blame for Zherdev choosing to sign with the KHL, which he has every right to do. I'm just saying Bettman played a role in creating the current cap world and financial situation the NHL is in which. The financial position (team revenues, league revenues, and the cap) played a significant role in the Rangers choosing to walk away from Zherdev. Teams inability to pay players what the players feel they are worth and what the teams could financially afford (strictly from a monetary sense, not a cap sense) were factors (most likely) in Zherdev (and Hudler) going to the KHL (for supposed bigger pay days). Again, Bettman is not directly to blame but the cap world and financial situation of the league (which forced a cap into the NHL) is partly to blame for players opting for bigger paydays in the KHL. Reiterating from my previous post, all parties share some blame in the situation. The owners/GMs for over spending in the pre-cap world on players who did not deserve it (paying above true market value for players), players for going to the highest bidders and Bettman for bidding on behalf of the owners and over expanding thus creating more teams in financial dispair and having a smaller % of league shared revenues to each team.

The Rangers could afford to pay him that much, especially if they moved players. They obviously felt that given their cap situation and his lack of importance to the team (or already having the important pieces of the puzzle), they'd just walk away from the deal. And it isn't inherently owners or Bettman's fault by any stretch of the imagination of they cannot afford to pay a player merely what he's felt he's worth. That never would fly. One ******* rookie wide receiver is trying that with my 49ers right this very minute and has not an iota of support. Players salaries are dictated by the market. The market unfortunately was unsustainable to too many teams, hence the cap, but nonetheless, the arbitrator gave Zherdev what was a fair salary, Rangers could have taken him, but chose not to, and now he decides to go to Russia, which means he wasn't interested in pursuing free agency to sign with any team, which I'm sure handfuls could afford him at the salary the arbitrator decided he should earn.

[Echolalia 2,961]

yup, and it looks like it won't be ending anytime soon...or atleast until the cap is at about 70 million. is it really fair that the teams that make all the money can't spend the money they want to? NO! the teams that generate revenue should be able to reach into their deep pockets and throw money around. teams like phoenix should have garbage teams because they can't afford to ice a good team.

If you removed the cap then there would be a lot more teams like Phoenix, and sport interest would drop considerably because the same three or four teams would be competing for the Cup year after year. The successful teams are the ones that generate revenue and have deep pockets to throw money around with. Any team that doesn't have immediate success will be caught in a downward spiral of less revenue to pay for skill, which leads to less success, which leads to even less revenue to pay for even less skill. Essentially you're creating a market where the rich will get richer and the poor will get poorer. This would also most likely lower the incentive for other players to come to the nhl. If you are drafted by a team that isn't a regular Cup competitor, then why come to the nhl at all? You can earn just as much money in the KHL and be closer to home.

[LeftWinger 5,152]

This is just solidifying the notion that has plagued the Europeans forever. They just don't have the same love and drive for the Stanley Cup as the North Americans (particularly Canadians) have. The Euros holiest grail is on the world front, not the NHL and a trophy that plays third fiddle to World Championships and Olympic Golds...

They started arriving here for the money (not the Cup) in the late 80's throughout the 90's and early 2000's. Now, they are leaving for the money, not really caring if they win a Cup or not...

edit: Of course how long until we start talking NHL/KHL merger?

Edited August 11, 2009 by LeftWinger

[mmamolo 287]

The Rangers could afford to pay him that much, especially if they moved players. They obviously felt that given their cap situation and his lack of importance to the team (or already having the important pieces of the puzzle), they'd just walk away from the deal.

The Rangers would be forced to move players in order to pay him due to the salary cap which as I already explained Bettman, the Owners, GMs and players are all partly responsible for. The Rangers were forced to choose between signing Zherdev and moving other players or walking away from Zherdev. This is directly an effect of the cap. This is the entire point of this conversation.

And it isn't inherently owners or Bettman's fault by any stretch of the imagination of they cannot afford to pay a player merely what he's felt he's worth. That never would fly.

As I have already said it is not 100% Bettman's fault. I have already said that the players share some of the blame for demanding salaries. They share their portion of the blame too. I have already said this. I do not think that a player should be paid whatever he feels he is worth. He should be paid according to his market value which is determined through other contracts league wide.

Look, at the end of the day all I have said is that Bettman shares part of the blame for this overall situation. Again, I have already stated that the players also share some of the blame. Why you're being so argumentative, I don't know.

I have already agreed that Zherdev can sign wherever he wants, KHL included. But the Rangers choice to walk away from ZHerdev's awarded contract had 100% to do with the cap (which Bettman is part to blame for) and their standing within it (which their Management staff created).

[Guest Shoreline]

The Rangers would be forced to move players in order to pay him due to the salary cap which as I already explained Bettman, the Owners, GMs and players are all partly responsible for. The Rangers were forced to choose between signing Zherdev and moving other players or walking away from Zherdev. This is directly an effect of the cap. This is the entire point of this conversation.

As I have already said it is not 100% Bettman's fault. I have already said that the players share some of the blame for demanding salaries. They share their portion of the blame too. I have already said this. I do not think that a player should be paid whatever he feels he is worth. He should be paid according to his market value which is determined through other contracts league wide.

Look, at the end of the day all I have said is that Bettman shares part of the blame for this overall situation. Again, I have already stated that the players also share some of the blame. Why you're being so argumentative, I don't know.

I have already agreed that Zherdev can sign wherever he wants, KHL included. But the Rangers choice to walk away from ZHerdev's awarded contract had 100% to do with the cap (which Bettman is part to blame for) and their standing within it (which their Management staff created).

It's merely mind boggling that you're targeting anyone to blame for this. It's like blaming one side for a mutual breakup. What's the point? All this looks like to me is jumping on the Bettman-bashing bandwagon for no reason, which is why I'm being argumentative.

It would be like, oh noes, Kopecky/Hossa signed with Chicago. F U BETTMAN.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Shoreline

[mmamolo 287]

It's merely mind boggling that you're targeting anyone to blame for this. It's like blaming one side for a mutual breakup. What's the point? All this looks like to me is jumping on the Bettman-bashing bandwagon for no reason, which is why I'm being argumentative.

It would be like, oh noes, Kopecky/Hossa signed with Chicago. F U BETTMAN.

oh my god, man are you even reading my posts? I have said over and over again that i am not 100% blaming Bettman. I have repeatedly written that the Owners/GMs, players, and Bettman all have their share of the blame. Try reading my responses to your comments before you respond so argumentatively. I am not fully blaming Bettman for any of it. Im am saying he has his share, just like everyone else. If you can't understand that then there's nothing more I can do for you.

[LeftWinger 5,152]

oh my god, man are you even reading my posts? I have said over and over again that i am not 100% blaming Bettman. I have repeatedly written that the Owners/GMs, players, and Bettman all have their share of the blame. Try reading my responses to your comments before you respond so argumentatively. I am not fully blaming Bettman for any of it. Im am saying he has his share, just like everyone else. If you can't understand that then there's nothing more I can do for you.

Dude, if you don't agree with him 100%, then you are wrong. Learn it, live it, then ignore him...

[captainsubtext 0]

How is the Cap going up going to solve anything? It would only lead to stupid GMs overpaying even more for mediocre talent. Most of the franchises aren't in cap trouble because they have Franzen, Lidstrom, Pav and Zetterberg on board, but because of ridiculous contracts like the one for Brian Campbell.