Drake_Marcus 890 Report post Posted August 22, 2009 Absolutely hilarious that there's such heated debate over a 5-10 point difference in assumed potential. Around 90 forwards scored at a 60+ point pace last season. Another 15 - 20 were fairly close, close enough that a couple decent games could have put them over the edge. For an above average player on a good offensive team, 60 is not an amazing number...and a long, long way from 'elite'. Check your straw man at the door, no one is suggesting Flip is a super star. I was arguing that's his career potential, not that he'd hit it this year. If you think he's going to go over 60 pts this season, surely you think his career potential is higher. And like I said- less than 30 centres scored 60 or more points last season. I didn't say "pace", I didn't say "fairly close" and I didn't say it included any forward position. I was talking about centres. And guess what? If your offensive output is such that there are few enough of your peers to account for one per team, you've got an argument that you're elite. An above average player on a good offensive team can hit 60 without it being impressive? The Wings lead the league in scoring last year. They also had a team considered to be stocked with forwards that are above average or better. How many non-elite forwards scored 60 or more? ZERO. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
under_par_00 45 Report post Posted August 22, 2009 I'm pretty sure Flip had a banged up knee in the 08/09 playoffs. If you don't think that Fil can put up 55+ pts this year playing on the second line with Franzen and second PP then you are crazy. He is young, has great puck control, good speed, and a great pass. Oh and btw he is a great 2 way player with a good work ethic. If you think he has already begun to plateau in his THIRD full season in the NHL then you are very wrong. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tommingthepuck96 1 Report post Posted August 22, 2009 (edited) I say he's a guy with a career potential to be an excellent 2nd line centre who can score 50pts, play on the PK and win tons of faceoffs. Just because I'm not diluted enough to pretend his offensive skill is elite (it's not), apparently I'm "disregarding filppula s anything more than an over-paid grand rapid griffin". Because there's no way I can value a player for who he is and not for a pipe dream that every prospect is a potential Datsyuk and we're all special little snowflakes. There were less than 30 centres in the NHL who scored 60pts last year. Apparently you think Filppula projects as a guy who can be a first line centre (since there are exactly 30 teams and less than 30 centres who can score 60 pts). I guess I'm different from you because I can appreciate players who are valuable without being scoring superstars. Using the "Grand rapid griffin" quote was a little exaggerating as you seem to completely shoot down any potential filppula has, when any person on this forum says anything good about him. But after reading your most recent quote "Samulesson and cleary have better hands than filppula", that exaggeration about you turned out to be quite accurate. After reading that i pretty much decided, like on other topics it is completely worthless to discuss anything logical with someone the likes of you, or the other genius on this thread trying so hard to discredit filppula. Like someone else said, no one is saying hes the next datsyuk, but to say filppula cannot make a 15 point increase this year from last year is a complete joke, your clearly bored and just want something to argue about. Edited August 22, 2009 by tommingthepuck96 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Drake_Marcus 890 Report post Posted August 22, 2009 Using the "Grand rapid griffin" quote was a little exaggerating as you seem to completely shoot down any potential filppula has, when any person on this forum says anything good about him. But after reading your most recent quote "Samulesson and cleary have better hands than filppula", that exaggeration about you turned out to be quite accurate. After reading that i pretty much decided, like on other topics it is completely worthless to discuss anything logical with someone the likes of you, or the other genius on this thread trying so hard to discredit filppula. Like someone else said, no one is saying hes the next datsyuk, but to say filppula cannot make a 15 point increase this year from last year is a complete joke, your clearly bored and just want something to argue about. Samulesson and Cleary's superior scoring, PP and SO numbers must just be a coincidence then. I guess Cleary being a scoring star before entering the league and being drafted in the 1st round is also a coincidence. Discredit? Why don't you reread my post that directly addressed your concerns about me. You know, it is possible to think Filppula's not going to rip it up this year and suddenly become a top 30 centre in this league without actually disliking him. I like Filppula-- I appreciate what he offers the team. I'm just not convinced that every single player has the potential to be the next star player if we just wish hard enough when we blow out the candles. And again, I've argued that Filppula won't score "60+" points this year. You can pretend I'm arguing against a 15 point increase, though, if that makes you feel better. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zetts 236 Report post Posted August 22, 2009 (edited) Everyone seems to be pretty close in their projections, it's just arguments about how to describe Filppula...and really, who cares? You can call a player with 60 points a steaming pile of crap or a god...and it's still the same number of points. Really, the difference from 55 to 60 points isn't a big deal. Comparing Filppula to Sammy or Cleary is pretty unfair too. Completely different types of players. Filppula isn't in the shootout because he can't finish (with the odd exception), but he's good with the puck and can set up plays. Edit: To add to that, the difference in pp time wasn't because Filppula sucked. It was because we have enough playmakers, we needed a right handed shot on the point (Sammy) and another net-front presence (Cleary). Again, different types of players. Edited August 22, 2009 by Zetts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Konnan511 1,736 Report post Posted August 22, 2009 Samulesson and Cleary's superior scoring, PP and SO numbers must just be a coincidence then. I guess Cleary being a scoring star before entering the league and being drafted in the 1st round is also a coincidence. Discredit? Why don't you reread my post that directly addressed your concerns about me. You know, it is possible to think Filppula's not going to rip it up this year and suddenly become a top 30 centre in this league without actually disliking him. I like Filppula-- I appreciate what he offers the team. I'm just not convinced that every single player has the potential to be the next star player if we just wish hard enough when we blow out the candles. And again, I've argued that Filppula won't score "60+" points this year. You can pretend I'm arguing against a 15 point increase, though, if that makes you feel better. Just out of curiosity, as I am one of the Filppula slap happys, you don't think playing with bertuzzi and Franzen regularly and getting some more PP time, he won't be able to increase his point total by 15 points? I don't think it's that hard of a reach to say Franzen and Bertuzzi are substantially better than Cleary and Sammy. I think it's possible at least and again I'm not into having pissing matches and showing my Red Wing hard-on, I'm just curious to see if you don't think it is at least possible and reseaonable to assume he can increase his point total by 15 points. Go Wings! PS this is NOT an attack, just curiosity Hope your days going good Drake! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Drake_Marcus 890 Report post Posted August 22, 2009 Just out of curiosity, as I am one of the Filppula slap happys, you don't think playing with bertuzzi and Franzen regularly and getting some more PP time, he won't be able to increase his point total by 15 points? I don't think it's that hard of a reach to say Franzen and Bertuzzi are substantially better than Cleary and Sammy. I think it's possible at least and again I'm not into having pissing matches and showing my Red Wing hard-on, I'm just curious to see if you don't think it is at least possible and reseaonable to assume he can increase his point total by 15 points. Go Wings! PS this is NOT an attack, just curiosity Hope your days going good Drake! To be honest, I'm not convinced Filppula will be consistent enough to stay on the 2nd line. He really seems to struggle early in the season, and that type of inconsistency is what seems to hold him back more than linemates. I'm sure he'll play a good chunk of the season on the 2nd line, but if he wants to score 55 points or more he'll have to play enough with the same guys to develop the right chemistry. He's not offensively talented enough to slide up and down the line-up and still score 57 pts like Hudler did, but he is talented enough to score that many points in the right situation. And in my opinion that situation is one where Filppula is consistent enough to stick around on the 2nd line full time and develop some solid chemistry with his linemates. We know Franzen will be on one wing, but the 2nd winger is open to debate, so you're also kind of counting on someone showing up and playing themselves onto that line full time. Leino could be that guy. I'd love to see some chemistry develop between Leino and Filppula, and who knows-- we might have a nearly fully Finnish line. So in summary-- yeah, he could score 55 this season if the right situation develops. I just won't predict it because it's something that's more situational and is, at least to some extent, out of Filppula's control. And as it stands now, Filppula hasn't shown us he can create chemistry and pull a line along with him. Now if Hossa was returning and they reunited the Hossa-Filppula-Franzen line from the playoffs I'm confident Filppula could break 50 pts. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Konnan511 1,736 Report post Posted August 22, 2009 I'd love to see some chemistry develop between Leino and Filppula, and who knows-- we might have a nearly fully Finnish line. Alright, makes sense, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on his offensive talents, but I see exactly where you're coming from, though. As you can see from the part I bolded, my avatar would be very happy to see that happen! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Drake_Marcus 890 Report post Posted August 22, 2009 Alright, makes sense, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on his offensive talents, but I see exactly where you're coming from, though. As you can see from the part I bolded, my avatar would be very happy to see that happen! Me too man-- Leino's the s***! I'm excited for the season to start so I can go on ebay and snap up all of his rookie cards Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Konnan511 1,736 Report post Posted August 22, 2009 Me too man-- Leino's the s***! I'm excited for the season to start so I can go on ebay and snap up all of his rookie cards :beerbuddy: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gcom007 1,465 Report post Posted August 23, 2009 :beerbuddy: I'll drink to that in about 30 minutes at the bar! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
titanium2 867 Report post Posted August 23, 2009 My hope is that he gets at least one Selke. It would be quite a damn shame if he doesn't get one in his career. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BeeRYCE 2 Report post Posted August 23, 2009 He has what it takes to be a 50 goal scorer... But very injury prone, I think if he doesn't get 50, it will be due to him missing games... I'd say he'll record the same goals per game average as he would if he scored 50 goals in 82 games. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Z and D for the C 712 Report post Posted August 23, 2009 Samulesson and Cleary's superior scoring, PP and SO numbers must just be a coincidence then. I guess Cleary being a scoring star before entering the league and being drafted in the 1st round is also a coincidence. All of Cleary, Samulesson and Filppula had 40 points last year, Filppula with the least PP time (by far), none had shoot out goals. What are you talking about? Get a clue. Is Filppula being #4 in ES scoring on the wings last year a coincidence? Is Filppula being ranked #34 among centers (OMG almost top 30!!!!) in even strength scoring last year a coincidence? And since I know everything is thinking it, he was ranked #35 in even strength TOI among centers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eva unit zero 271 Report post Posted August 24, 2009 All of Cleary, Samulesson and Filppula had 40 points last year, Filppula with the least PP time (by far), none had shoot out goals. What are you talking about? Get a clue. Is Filppula being #4 in ES scoring on the wings last year a coincidence? Is Filppula being ranked #34 among centers (OMG almost top 30!!!!) in even strength scoring last year a coincidence? And since I know everything is thinking it, he was ranked #35 in even strength TOI among centers. IMHO, Filppula was the 33rd best center last season and the 68th best forward. So while he was not a first-line center based on his ranking among centers, he was clearly a first-line level forward, along with six other Red Wings (Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Hossa, Franzen, Hudler, Cleary) so depending on how you rank it, he certainly could center a team's first line and not be out of place. For reference, based on these same rankings, the current Wings roster has six top-line level forwards (lost Hossa and Hudler, gained Bertuzzi) so the Wings aren't much worse off. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Lidstromboli Report post Posted August 24, 2009 33rd best? give the guy some credit, he's at least 32nd Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mmamolo 287 Report post Posted August 24, 2009 I by no means think Filppula is the next Jesus Christ of point production but it seems like some are being pretty harsh on his offensive abilities. This year is his chance to have his break out year. From not only a point production standpoint but from a responsibility and consistency standpoint. At the end of the day I think we'll be looking at him in years 4 and 5 of his current contract and be thinking that we have him at a solid cap hit. Whether you think he produces enough or not I think we'll be happy with the deal we signed him to. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zetterbergfan 23 Report post Posted August 28, 2009 I don't know...I have pt a lot of thought into this...50 is a pretty high expectation. No Red Wing has scored 50 goals in a season since Sergei Fedorov, tallied 56 in 1993-94. Alexander Ovechkin was the only player in the league to do it last season. The question isn’t whether or not Zetterberg is capable of scoring at a pace to reach 50. He scored 43 goals in 75 games in 2007-2008. There is no doubt that if Zetterberg can play 75-82 games and gets hot, he has the potential to hit that target. Some question Henrik’s health and if he can avoid injuries to his back and wrist for a full year. He has missed a handful of games the past few seasons with back spasms. He has not missed any games due to wrist problems since 2006-07, although it is rumored that he plays through pain with chronic tendonitis of the left wrist. Right now, there are no reports of Zetterberg having any problems with his lower back or wrist tendonitis this off-season. Still, the big question for a lot of people is, can Z play enough games without pain to reach 50 goals? The other big issue for Zetterberg is his role on the team, his line-mates, and his power-play time. Last off-season, Detroit made a big splash, signing free-agent sniper Marian Hossa. For most of the year, Hossa took Zetterberg’s spot on the top line with super-playmaker Pavel Datsyuk. Hossa also took his spot on the team’s #1 power-play unit. Zetterberg’s role became more of a shut-down center on the second line, playing with wingers like Johan Franzen, Dan Cleary, Mikael Samuelsson, and Jiri Hudler. This season, Hossa is gone to the Chicago Blackhawks via free-agency, and Zetterberg is likely to take his top line center duties back. When he had this role playing along side Datsyuk in previous years, Zetterberg has led the team in goal scoring since 2006 when Brendan Shanahan had one more than him (40). Zetterberg stated before the beginning of last season that he would like to be the first Swede to break Hakan Loob’s 50 goal mark. However, with the Hossa situation last year, as well as Hank possibly having been distracted by his own contract negotiations, he was only able to score 31 goals in 77 games. Look for Zetterberg to have a bounce-back year and shoot for Loob’s record again. I think Z will be expected to score more this season playing 1st line minutes in a scoring role along side Datsyuk. If he stays healthy there is no reason to doubt that he could post 50 goals and break the 100 point mark. My prediction: I expect he'll get about same goals-per game average as he did in the three seasons from 2005-2008 (.53). At that rate and playing over 77 games he should easily lead the team, scoring around 41-43 goals. With a little extra incentive to redeem himself after his “off-yearâ€, as well as wanting to prove he is worth his new 12-year contract, I say Zetterberg will get hot and set a new personal best with around 44-46, but not likely hitting the elusive 50 goal mark. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Motown4013 350 Report post Posted August 29, 2009 Z had an off season ( by his standards) last year because of contract BS. I actually think this is the year that these guys step up and that includes my favorate Wing, Zetty. I think Hank can score 40 and Dats will finally make it over the 100 point mark. As for Flip, he is ready to go...He'll get PP time and he is easily a 55 pt guy this year. I think the boys will have had the sour taste of loosing a GAME 7 Stanley Cup at home and they are gonna come out swinging!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
swedishconnection 36 Report post Posted August 31, 2009 This. Datsyuk is just too good not to make his winger score more. You realize that when Dats and Z are on the same line that Z is the center and Dats is the winger? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
j.hoop 64 Report post Posted August 31, 2009 after the euro twins reunite, their dynamic prowess will net zetterberg 50 goals and pasha 71 assists. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pavel Hossyukstrom 2 Report post Posted September 1, 2009 It's 40 or bust. I thought that's why he wears it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hockeytown0001 7,652 Report post Posted September 3, 2009 It's easily within his range. He netted 43 in 2008 playing in just 75 games. Now that the contract situation is behind him and provided he stays healthy, it wouldn't be out of his range to net 50. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeinred 1,488 Report post Posted September 3, 2009 I'd love to see some chemistry develop between Leino and Filppula, and who knows-- we might have a nearly fully Finnish line. The thought of a completely Finnish line for the Wings some day makes me very, very happy in the pants. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
titanium2 867 Report post Posted September 3, 2009 The thought of a completely Finnish line for the Wings some day makes me very, very happy in the pants. Draft picks for the Red Wings take too long. How about a free agent? Any Finnish free agents? Preferably one willing to provide a net front presence? Although, Holmstrom is half Finnish right? A line of Leino-Fil-Homer will be slow as all hell but it's as close as we'll get this year. But an all-Finnish line, Vittu juu! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
