Ohlund HEAD SHOT on Kessel

[stevkrause 1,247]

You are giving me your opinion on the leagues disciplinary actions. Not why you believe he should made an example off.

ugh... I don't know how much more clear to make it - I don't think anyone should "be made an example of" - I think they need to clearly define what is an offense and then enforce those punishments - ACROSS THE BOARD.

If this is punished evenly and fairly, eventually, the cheap shots will go away from the game and younger generations will not mimick these poor decisions to look like the "cool" NHL players, thus improving future classes...

You can still play hard, hit DAMN hard and be physical as all hell, without taking liberties and hurting a guy for the sake of hurting a guy.

[Inultus 12]

Everyone talks about double standards and yes I agree but it has nothing to do with who hit who. It has to do with did the hit result in injury. You can hit someone cleanly, hurt the guy and be vilified, yet if you hit someone from behind in the corner and the guy pops up right away, there's no harm done. A lot of the time with no penalty called period.

I'm not going to get into the nitpicking going on in this thread, but I will say I agree with this. I'm really sick of people saying that Crosby or whoever gets away with murder because they are stars. I've seen Crosby spend plenty of time in the box.

Also, Pronger got suspended for a hit on Holmstrom (because Holmstrom got bloodied). Pronger was one of the bigger stars on that team. And it was playoffs as well! Too bad the Wings didn't capitalize on his absence.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Clean hit. Kessel himself didn't even hint that it was questionable.

[Nhurdi 42]

Really no reason for such a hit, especially so early in the season.

Does this mean late in the season it may be okay?

[zettie85 106]

It is fact based on your post that I quoted, get with the program, sheesh!

Read up about what I posted, learn the information, and re-read your post. Part of growing as an individual is learning how to educate yourself, take constructive criticism, and evaluating your own actions/personality.

Good job with trying to make me feel smaller then you. Stevkrause was nice enough to explain what you meant without being a pretentious ******* like you. I should educate myself so I can belittle people like you do. Sounds like fun.

Edited November 5, 2009 by zettie85

[Rivalred 630]

Good job with trying to make me feel smaller then you. Stevkrause was nice enough to explain what you meant without being a pretentious ******* like you. I should educate myself so I can belittle people like you do. Sounds like fun.

I am not going to sit here and feed you information. You know how to use google and the search feature.

Yup, name calling... Good one... So 3rd grade...

[Rivalred 630]

Does this mean late in the season it may be okay?

Haven't decided yet.

[zettie85 106]

I am not going to sit here and feed you information. You know how to use google and the search feature.

Yup, name calling... Good one... So 3rd grade...

What do you get out of being a jerk??? You are dripping with arrogance. FYI not a good quality.

"Product of your enviroment." It means nothing in this argument. You will always have goons. If your plan is to remove each offender from the sport, it's not going to last.

[Rivalred 630]

There is no NHL player playing in the league right now that grew up playing with the new rules. It's still in transition. To punish them for playing how they were taught is just not right.

What do you get out of being a jerk??? You are dripping with arrogance. FYI not a good quality.

"Product of your enviroment." It means nothing in this argument. You will always have goons. If your plan is to remove each offender from the sport, it's not going to last.

You said it right in your own post... See the quote?

They are a product of their environment... The only thing they know is the old rules and not the new ones.

New rules need to be set so they can be "conditioned" or "learn a new behavior" otherwise how will they learn...

So keep on calling me names... I did nothing to you to warrant such remarks and negativity. If you do not want look up information to understand my post, then so be it, but do not start name calling and say I am the one who is being the criminal.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Beauty hit. Kessels fine, no biggie.

[zettie85 106]

You said it right in your own post... See the quote?

They are a product of their environment... The only thing they know is the old rules and not the new ones.

New rules need to be set so they can be "conditioned" or "learn a new behavior" otherwise how will they learn...

So keep on calling me names... I did nothing to you to warrant such remarks and negativity. If you do not want look up information to understand my post, then so be it, but do not start name calling and say I am the one who is being the criminal.

Thank you for explaining what you meant and not making it a puzzle. I don't mean to be negative and I'm sorry, it was just frustrating. I still feel I can disagree with you though. It's too early in the transition to start trying to teach them. In my mind at least you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Maybe you are right though. Just got let it play itself out I guess.

[Rivalred 630]

Thank you for explaining what you meant and not making it a puzzle. I don't mean to be negative and I'm sorry, it was just frustrating. I still feel I can disagree with you though. It's too early in the transition to start trying to teach them. In my mind at least you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Maybe you are right though. Just got let it play itself out I guess.

SK is right, more and more players are getting hurt... Something needs to be done... Why do you think I commented on Pat Lafontaine and Eric Lindros... They would of played a few more years if head injuries were not such a problem.

It is a bad situation...

[Carman 387]

Get rid of hard capped shoulder pads before adding rules. Don't change how the game is supposed to be played. That should be saved for a final option after all other avenues are traveled to find a way to limit the injuries. I agree that something should be done, but I think it has more to do with gear then players. I don't think it would be a better game without the aggression and hitting.

[zettie85 106]

Beauty hit. Kessels fine, no biggie.

That's part of the problem though. The fact that they base punishment on severity of injury. No injury, no punishment. If Kessel stays down and gets concussed maybe there is a punishment dealt out. That seems to be the norm from what I've seen. Richards did not fall in to this for some reason which is weird.

[stevkrause 1,247]

Get rid of hard capped shoulder pads before adding rules. Don't change how the game is supposed to be played. That should be saved for a final option after all other avenues are traveled to find a way to limit the injuries. I agree that something should be done, but I think it has more to do with gear then players. I don't think it would be a better game without the aggression and hitting.

That's pretty much what I suggested in my first post - but the dirty hits NEED to go, and they need a legit discipline board to hand out punishments fairly, evenly and without bias - until this is done, it will still be a second class league.

[Buppy 1,720]

Get rid of hard capped shoulder pads before adding rules. Don't change how the game is supposed to be played. That should be saved for a final option after all other avenues are traveled to find a way to limit the injuries. I agree that something should be done, but I think it has more to do with gear then players. I don't think it would be a better game without the aggression and hitting.

Unless you're talking a large difference in the total amount of padding, hard or soft cap isn't going to make much difference in the amount of energy transferred. The forces involved are too great for a 1/4" or 1/2" of foam/fiber to be significant. And some of that would probably be offset by the greater deflective properties of a smooth surface. It wouldn't hurt, but it wouldn't be a solution.

I remember reading a while back that very few helmets actually meet established safety standards...players wear them too loose, and for too long. That would be the first place to look if you want to look at equipment.

But as Stevekrause said, the dirty hits need to be punished. I think we all feel that way, we just have different opinions on what constitutes 'dirty'.

Personally, I would add a headshot penalty, specifically defined as a hit where the head/neck is the initial or primary area of contact, with a possible exception to allow for players moving at the last second. A two, four, or five minute penalty, depending on the severity of the hit. Suspensions/fines for repeat offenders or cases where intent seems likely.

[eva unit zero 271]

Personally, I would add a headshot penalty, specifically defined as a hit where the head/neck is the initial or primary area of contact, with a possible exception to allow for players moving at the last second. A two, four, or five minute penalty, depending on the severity of the hit. Suspensions/fines for repeat offenders or cases where intent seems likely.

As much as a headshot penalty would be great, it's like trying to add a knee-on-knee penalty. You can't. Think about it for a second. We're sitting here and arguing over otherwise clean hits that have made contact with the head due to the recipient being in a bad position. And that's with the benefit of slow-motion replay. What is a referee supposed to do with one, full-speed chance to tell what happened? Assume it was an intentional head shot? If that happened, then welcome to the No Hitting League.

[Broken 16 381]

Really no reason for such a hit, especially so early in the season.

Are you being sarcastic? Hard to tell. If so... haha. If not... Stupid comment.

[stevkrause 1,247]

Unless you're talking a large difference in the total amount of padding, hard or soft cap isn't going to make much difference in the amount of energy transferred. The forces involved are too great for a 1/4" or 1/2" of foam/fiber to be significant. And some of that would probably be offset by the greater deflective properties of a smooth surface. It wouldn't hurt, but it wouldn't be a solution.

I remember reading a while back that very few helmets actually meet established safety standards...players wear them too loose, and for too long. That would be the first place to look if you want to look at equipment.

But as Stevekrause said, the dirty hits need to be punished. I think we all feel that way, we just have different opinions on what constitutes 'dirty'.

Personally, I would add a headshot penalty, specifically defined as a hit where the head/neck is the initial or primary area of contact, with a possible exception to allow for players moving at the last second. A two, four, or five minute penalty, depending on the severity of the hit. Suspensions/fines for repeat offenders or cases where intent seems likely.

not true whatsoever - the hard plastic causes a much larger source of impact, as none of the momentum is absorbed buy the pads, but fully transferred due to the materials used... if soft caps were used, more force would be absorbed, thus lessening and reducing injury - this does not mean that switching to soft caps are going let a guy just get up and skate away from a hit like the one on Havlat last year, but it will most CERTAINLY decrease the likelihood of concussion - also, the helmets should be regulated as well....

[Buppy 1,720]

As much as a headshot penalty would be great, it's like trying to add a knee-on-knee penalty. You can't. Think about it for a second. We're sitting here and arguing over otherwise clean hits that have made contact with the head due to the recipient being in a bad position. And that's with the benefit of slow-motion replay. What is a referee supposed to do with one, full-speed chance to tell what happened? Assume it was an intentional head shot? If that happened, then welcome to the No Hitting League.

I don't buy that. It's not any harder to catch a head shot than it is an elbow, trip, or high stick. I'm not saying any contact with the head should be a penalty. Only where the head is hit first, or primarily. Of course, they couldn't be perfect; some calls would be missed, others made that shouldn't...just like any other penalty. The refs wouldn't be the ones to determine intent either, that would be done by review from a disciplinary committee, same as it is now.

Players haven't stopped trying stick-lifts for fear they'll miss and get a high-sticking penalty. Haven't stopped tying up or clearing the crease for fear of slashing or cross-checking calls. They won't stop hitting over a headshot rule. They'll just be more careful, and maybe stop trying to make highlight reels by taking advantage of vulnerable players...you know, show some class, sportsmanship, and respect for their fellow athletes.

[stevkrause 1,247]

I don't buy that. It's not any harder to catch a head shot than it is an elbow, trip, or high stick. I'm not saying any contact with the head should be a penalty. Only where the head is hit first, or primarily. Of course, they couldn't be perfect; some calls would be missed, others made that shouldn't...just like any other penalty. The refs wouldn't be the ones to determine intent either, that would be done by review from a disciplinary committee, same as it is now.

Players haven't stopped trying stick-lifts for fear they'll miss and get a high-sticking penalty. Haven't stopped tying up or clearing the crease for fear of slashing or cross-checking calls. They won't stop hitting over a headshot rule. They'll just be more careful, and maybe stop trying to make highlight reels by taking advantage of vulnerable players...you know, show some class, sportsmanship, and respect for their fellow athletes.

I agree, I think the only thing it would reduce (which would be the whole purpose) would be the intentional blows - the accidental ones are always going to happen and that's part of the game, but penalties are still accessed for accidents - ie high sticking

[zettie85 106]

I don't buy that. It's not any harder to catch a head shot than it is an elbow, trip, or high stick. I'm not saying any contact with the head should be a penalty. Only where the head is hit first, or primarily. Of course, they couldn't be perfect; some calls would be missed, others made that shouldn't...just like any other penalty. The refs wouldn't be the ones to determine intent either, that would be done by review from a disciplinary committee, same as it is now.

Players haven't stopped trying stick-lifts for fear they'll miss and get a high-sticking penalty. Haven't stopped tying up or clearing the crease for fear of slashing or cross-checking calls. They won't stop hitting over a headshot rule. They'll just be more careful, and maybe stop trying to make highlight reels by taking advantage of vulnerable players...you know, show some class, sportsmanship, and respect for their fellow athletes.

The fact that everyone of us gets excited when we see Kronwall lay a vulnerable player out, makes some of us here hypocrites.

[Buppy 1,720]

not true whatsoever - the hard plastic causes a much larger source of impact, as none of the momentum is absorbed buy the pads, but fully transferred due to the materials used... if soft caps were used, more force would be absorbed, thus lessening and reducing injury - this does not mean that switching to soft caps are going let a guy just get up and skate away from a hit like the one on Havlat last year, but it will most CERTAINLY decrease the likelihood of concussion - also, the helmets should be regulated as well....

Ok, I'm not a physicist, but...

The mass carrying all the momentum is not the surface of the shell, but the player behind the shell (and also behind the padding beneath it). Therefore, the transfer of that momentum energy still has to travel through the absorbant layer of padding. The padding absorbs the same energy whether inside or outside of the shell.

The difference would come in the return energy generated by the resistance from compressing the padding. The shell diffuses energy from a small area on the stiking side, to a larger area on the opposite side. With all the padding inside the shell, the player on the outside of the shell would take half the return energy from compressing all the padding beneath it (and that concentrated in a smaller area). With padding on the outside, they would take only half the return energy from whatever amount of padding is compressed at the impact point. (Maybe 10-20%)

Given the amount of force in hard body check, I can't imagine that the resistance of the padding would be all that significant.

[Buppy 1,720]

The fact that everyone of us gets excited when we see Kronwall lay a vulnerable player out, makes some of us here hypocrites.

That fact that some of us make assumptions and overgeneralize makes some of us, well...

I said (in the Wisniewski thread I think) that I don't like Kronwall's headhunting. Do a little research before you try to label me. Thanks.

[HOCKEY MATTERS 167]

man, sometimes it seems like everyone's twirling in a circle pissing on everything in here. Why does anybody think they are more important or valid than anybody else? Geez.