Report: Toews, Kane and Keith close to extensions

[Shaman 713]

let me clear some things up:

#1 they cant waive Campbell, he has a no MOVEMENT clause, not a no trade clause. So hes the 7 million dollar anchor around their necks.

#2 They cant sign over cap space for next year, if they have 13.8 in cap space next year at this years number they cant resign people over that amount till this summer. So if Toews and Kane get 12+ million they can't sign Keith till July 1.

#3 They won't waive Huet, its bad for player moral and no matter how good their rookies are, no owner will pay a guy 5.25 million a year to play in the minors.

#4 They probably won't buy Campbell out just to sign Keith, they'd have to pay him about 2.5 million a season which counts against the cap, and Keith will DEFINITELY get ATLEAST as much as they save per season in his raise, they save no money and are still in cap hell.

#5 Moving players like Byfuglien and Barker to make up for the space they need for Keith can't happen, in the cap world and with it looking like the cap could stay the same or go down, teams probably won't be willing to take their contracts without trading some of their cap constraints in return, so best case they will probably only get a couple million in savings and more than likely downgrades on the wing and on defense.

The most likely situation is either they trade a lot of good role players for what return they can, or they lose Keith. I for one would not mind the wings losing some draft picks to pick him up this summer, but thats just me.

[WpgMikos 17]

Morning Papers Take: How will the Blackhawks fit everyone under the cap?

I don't see how they are going to keep under the cap.

[Miller Brew 0]

Pretty much, yeah. He's on probation for the next year, but that's it.

What I don't understand is people like you and I, if on probation, cannot enter in to Canada under any circumstances.

[mmamolo 287]

As we all know teams cannot go over the salary cap for next season by signing players to extensions during the current season. A window exists in the off season where a team is allowed to go over the cap so long as they are within the cap limit by season's start. I'd imagine that the Hawks want to get deals with Kane, Toews and Keith done as soon as possible but not at the expense of makign roster moves now in order to be cap compliant for next season. With their current situation I really don't see how they can sign all three for approx $13.5M (according to capgeek.com).

[selkie 10]

What I don't understand is people like you and I, if on probation, cannot enter in to Canada under any circumstances.

Bob Probert had a season or two where he couldn't cross the border because of the drug charges, IIRC. So a lot of games, he was officially a healthy scratch because of immigration issues.

I suspect that current joint law and probation agreements say he is allowed to enter Canada solely for work (ie. hockey) purposes while he is with the team.

[thedatsyukian 7]

No I understood, I was referring more to the person I was originally talking to.

By the way, he pleaded guilty to disorderly conduct, not assault.

Enough derailing this thread with your crusade to defend Kane's honor. He's a young kid who made a stupid mistake, please drop it and stay on topic.

I hope they do sign all of them so we can renew the Wings-Hawks rivalry with competitive playoff play every year.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

No I understood, I was referring more to the person I was originally talking to.

By the way, he pleaded guilty to disorderly conduct, not assault.

I'm not going to derail this thread further. I'll respond in the appropriate thread.

Click the following thread to continue this discussion: Patrick Kane Arrested

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Enough derailing this thread with your crusade to defend Kane's honor. He's a young kid who made a stupid mistake, please drop it and stay on topic.

I hope they do sign all of them so we can renew the Wings-Hawks rivalry with competitive playoff play every year.

I wouldn't bank on the Blackhawks making the playoffs every year if they re-sign all three and the cap stays where it is (or more likely, goes down). That team will be so unbalanced it'll end up killing them (ala Tampa Bay-style). Teams will use a shut-down line against their number 2 line, use their top line against the Blackhawks top line, and then let their respective 2nd and 3rd lines go ape-s*** on Huet.

[eva unit zero 271]

Let ME clear some things up.

let me clear some things up:

#1 they cant waive Campbell, he has a no MOVEMENT clause, not a no trade clause. So hes the 7 million dollar anchor around their necks.

They can waive Campbell. They just can't send him to the minors without his consent if he clears. They can also, by extension, terminate his SPC by the same process I mentioned before. Unlikely to happen with Campbell though.

#3 They won't waive Huet, its bad for player moral and no matter how good their rookies are, no owner will pay a guy 5.25 million a year to play in the minors.

Bad for player morale? If waiving Huet means they won't trade off two or three other guys, it's not bad for player morale. And in case you haven't been paying attention, Nikolai Khabibulin spent the first several weeks of last season in the minors, and not because of cap concerns.

#4 They probably won't buy Campbell out just to sign Keith, they'd have to pay him about 2.5 million a season which counts against the cap, and Keith will DEFINITELY get ATLEAST as much as they save per season in his raise, they save no money and are still in cap hell.

Buying Campbell out would probably not happen. Keith currently makes $1.475m. If you assume Campbell's $7,142,875 is bought out, he would still hit the cap for $2,380,958 for six years. The Hawks would save $4,761,917 on Campbell for the next six seasons, so if you sign Keith to a $5.5m contract that means you have another ~$750k for signing Campbell's replacement. But the Hawks only have three top-four defensemen right now, even though five defensemen make that kind of money. Barker is growing into his contract, Sopel is a waste, and Hjalmarsson should be a true top-four defenseman by the end of next season. By that point we might see the Hawks try and make some kind of move with Campbell, but there will also be fewer long-term cap concerns at that point.

#5 Moving players like Byfuglien and Barker to make up for the space they need for Keith can't happen, in the cap world and with it looking like the cap could stay the same or go down, teams probably won't be willing to take their contracts without trading some of their cap constraints in return, so best case they will probably only get a couple million in savings and more than likely downgrades on the wing and on defense.

Byfuglien is possibly the biggest waste of cap space on the roster. He won't be moved not only because nobody would taek that contract, but because he showed over a week and a half span of strong play that he could, in some alternate universe, become a second line power forward.

Barker is overpaid, but not really by that much. He's solid offensively and developing into a decent top-four defenseman. The Hawks are better off holding onto him and dropping Huet and at least one of Byfuglien or Sopel to clear cap space. The last two can easily be replaced with much cheaper players.

The most likely situation is either they trade a lot of good role players for what return they can, or they lose Keith. I for one would not mind the wings losing some draft picks to pick him up this summer, but thats just me.

If smart, the Hawks drop a couple very overpaid players, possibly a good role player or two (Madden?) and keep all of their core players.

[egroen 384]

I had read in the Hockey News a month ago that Campbell has a NMC, but now I am hearing he has a limited NTC -- in that he can provide a list of 8 teams in which Chicago has 45 days to trade him to one of them.

[Shaman 713]

Let ME clear some things up.

They can waive Campbell. They just can't send him to the minors without his consent if he clears. They can also, by extension, terminate his SPC by the same process I mentioned before. Unlikely to happen with Campbell though.

Bad for player morale? If waiving Huet means they won't trade off two or three other guys, it's not bad for player morale. And in case you haven't been paying attention, Nikolai Khabibulin spent the first several weeks of last season in the minors, and not because of cap concerns.

they don't just have to think about their current players but attracting anyone to come there in Free Agency, most players will take less if they believe they will be treated well. You dont send a lot of guys to the AHL like that without stigmatizing players.

Buying Campbell out would probably not happen. Keith currently makes $1.475m. If you assume Campbell's $7,142,875 is bought out, he would still hit the cap for $2,380,958 for six years. The Hawks would save $4,761,917 on Campbell for the next six seasons, so if you sign Keith to a $5.5m contract that means you have another ~$750k for signing Campbell's replacement. But the Hawks only have three top-four defensemen right now, even though five defensemen make that kind of money. Barker is growing into his contract, Sopel is a waste, and Hjalmarsson should be a true top-four defenseman by the end of next season. By that point we might see the Hawks try and make some kind of move with Campbell, but there will also be fewer long-term cap concerns at that point.

they save 4.7 mill, but they have 2.4 million in cap space they wont have back for the next 6 years that they will owe to a player that isn't playing for them. They won't part with him without something in return. Also 5.5+.750 adds up to 6.25+ and they still dont have the cap space with just this move. This move plus any trades will really weaken their team.

Byfuglien is possibly the biggest waste of cap space on the roster. He won't be moved not only because nobody would taek that contract, but because he showed over a week and a half span of strong play that he could, in some alternate universe, become a second line power forward.

Barker is overpaid, but not really by that much. He's solid offensively and developing into a decent top-four defenseman. The Hawks are better off holding onto him and dropping Huet and at least one of Byfuglien or Sopel to clear cap space. The last two can easily be replaced with much cheaper players.

Only reason I say these 2 is because its the 2 Chicago fans keep bringing up as possible moves

If smart, the Hawks drop a couple very overpaid players, possibly a good role player or two (Madden?) and keep all of their core players.

Who is that that isn't Byfuglien, Barker, Huet or Campbell? They have some contracts that they should keep because they give good bang for the buck. These are their worst (save for Barker in my mind) contracts on their books as of now. Other than that Hossa and Sharp would be the 2 most tradeable contracts on their books as that would make any real difference when it comes time to free cap space.

Edited November 19, 2009 by Shaman464

[eva unit zero 271]

they don't just have to think about their current players but attracting anyone to come there in Free Agency, most players will take less if they believe they will be treated well. You dont send a lot of guys to the AHL like that without stigmatizing players.

Waiving Huet or sending him to the minors won't change the opinion of players around the league with regards to Chicago. They already did that to Khabibulin, so if that is something that will push players away then that player is not signing in Chicago without a NMC.

they save 4.7 mill, but they have 2.4 million in cap space they wont have back for the next 6 years that they will owe to a player that isn't playing for them. They won't part with him without something in return. Also 5.5+.750 adds up to 6.25+ and they still dont have the cap space with just this move. This move plus any trades will really weaken their team.

They save that $4.76m on the buyout by taking Campbell's hit down to just the $2.38m buyout fee. $5.5m for Keith plus $750k for another defenseman, minus the $4.76m buyout fee is $1.49m, which is just over what Keith makes now. So take away Keith's current salary from the $1.49 and it's about $10k, give or take. You forgot that giving Keith the raise to $5.5m only uses up enough open cap space to get him there from $1.475m, not a whole $5.5m.

Who is that that isn't Byfuglien, Barker, Huet or Campbell? They have some contracts that they should keep because they give good bang for the buck. These are their worst (save for Barker in my mind) contracts on their books as of now. Other than that Hossa and Sharp would be the 2 most tradeable contracts on their books as that would make any real difference when it comes time to free cap space.

Brent Sopel. His cap hit is $2.333m and he's their #6 defenseman. He gets paid like he's a #3/4 defenseman and has never been anything other than a #6/7 defenseman in the NHL. He can be replaced, improved upon even, for $500k. Easiest move the Hawks can make to clear cap space. Want $1.833 in free cap space? Replace Brent Sopel with any NHL caliber defenseman who is willing to sign a league-minimum deal. Andy Delmore is a good example. Doug Janik too. Both are improvements over Sopel.

I did it earlier, but let's take another look, this time starting off removing Sopel and Huet from the roster and adding Crawford to replace Huet. This puts then in a position with seven forwards, three defensemen, and one goaltender. Toews, Kane, Ladd, Keith, Hjalmarsson, and Niemi are the notable unsigned players. That's six forwards, four defensemen, and one goaltender the Hawks need to sign with $21.415m in open space.

Ladd should command likely a $2m deal as an FA; he has not done as well as Hudler and we saw what Hudler received in arbitration. Let's say Toews and Kane receive an average of $5m each. That takes care of three forward spots. Keith gets, say, another $5m. Now we're looking at $17m pulled out of that $21,415m. This drops us to $4.415m available to sign 3 forwards, 3 defenseman, and 1 goaltender. Well, that doesn't add up. Niemi will cost probably around $1.5m, and Hjalmarsson about the same. This leaves us with 3 open forward spots and 2 on defense, and only $1.415m to fill them. If you figure those five guys as $500k minimum wagers, that's 2.5m, and we're over the cap by about $1.1m now. Well, now we have an issue. We need to drop a player who makes at least $1.6m to fill the roster.

This is where the decision comes in. Who do you keep, Dustin Byfuglien or Andrew Ladd? The Hawks can probably get something for Byfuglien even though his contract is bloated. Ladd probably brings better return as he's a better player and will likely get a cheaper contract. Byfuglien is the right choice to deal IMHO. This provides some extra cap space so that the Hawks perhaps don't HAVE to sign minimum wagers for their depth slots.

So following this plan we would be looking at Toews, Hossa, Kane, Sharp, Bolland, Versteeg, Ladd, Kopecky, Brouwer up front, Keith, Seabrook, Campbell, Hjalmarsson, Barker on the blueline, and Niemi and Crawford in net, plus whichever four forwards and two defensemen the Hawks spend the remaining $4.4m on. Hawks' core would be intact outside of losing a couple good role players and an aging netminder.

[dobbles 252]

Waiving Huet or sending him to the minors won't change the opinion of players around the league with regards to Chicago. They already did that to Khabibulin, so if that is something that will push players away then that player is not signing in Chicago without a NMC.

while the hawks did dangle khabibulin on waivers he never played a game in rockford. as a matter of fact i don't think he was ever actually assigned to rockford. he was just waived so that he was eligible, but the trigger was never pulled. there is a big difference between that situation, and hiding a contract in the minors for an entire year. doing that to huet would put them at a competitive disadvantage for free agents for many years to come.

[Shaman 713]

[/b]

Waiving Huet or sending him to the minors won't change the opinion of players around the league with regards to Chicago. They already did that to Khabibulin, so if that is something that will push players away then that player is not signing in Chicago without a NMC.

They save that $4.76m on the buyout by taking Campbell's hit down to just the $2.38m buyout fee. $5.5m for Keith plus $750k for another defenseman, minus the $4.76m buyout fee is $1.49m, which is just over what Keith makes now. So take away Keith's current salary from the $1.49 and it's about $10k, give or take. You forgot that giving Keith the raise to $5.5m only uses up enough open cap space to get him there from $1.475m, not a whole $5.5m.

Brent Sopel. His cap hit is $2.333m and he's their #6 defenseman. He gets paid like he's a #3/4 defenseman and has never been anything other than a #6/7 defenseman in the NHL. He can be replaced, improved upon even, for $500k. Easiest move the Hawks can make to clear cap space. Want $1.833 in free cap space? Replace Brent Sopel with any NHL caliber defenseman who is willing to sign a league-minimum deal. Andy Delmore is a good example. Doug Janik too. Both are improvements over Sopel.

I did it earlier, but let's take another look, this time starting off removing Sopel and Huet from the roster and adding Crawford to replace Huet. This puts then in a position with seven forwards, three defensemen, and one goaltender. Toews, Kane, Ladd, Keith, Hjalmarsson, and Niemi are the notable unsigned players. That's six forwards, four defensemen, and one goaltender the Hawks need to sign with $21.415m in open space.

Ladd should command likely a $2m deal as an FA; he has not done as well as Hudler and we saw what Hudler received in arbitration. Let's say Toews and Kane receive an average of $5m each. That takes care of three forward spots. Keith gets, say, another $5m. Now we're looking at $17m pulled out of that $21,415m. This drops us to $4.415m available to sign 3 forwards, 3 defenseman, and 1 goaltender. Well, that doesn't add up. Niemi will cost probably around $1.5m, and Hjalmarsson about the same. This leaves us with 3 open forward spots and 2 on defense, and only $1.415m to fill them. If you figure those five guys as $500k minimum wagers, that's 2.5m, and we're over the cap by about $1.1m now. Well, now we have an issue. We need to drop a player who makes at least $1.6m to fill the roster.

This is where the decision comes in. Who do you keep, Dustin Byfuglien or Andrew Ladd? The Hawks can probably get something for Byfuglien even though his contract is bloated. Ladd probably brings better return as he's a better player and will likely get a cheaper contract. Byfuglien is the right choice to deal IMHO. This provides some extra cap space so that the Hawks perhaps don't HAVE to sign minimum wagers for their depth slots.

So following this plan we would be looking at Toews, Hossa, Kane, Sharp, Bolland, Versteeg, Ladd, Kopecky, Brouwer up front, Keith, Seabrook, Campbell, Hjalmarsson, Barker on the blueline, and Niemi and Crawford in net, plus whichever four forwards and two defensemen the Hawks spend the remaining $4.4m on. Hawks' core would be intact outside of losing a couple good role players and an aging netminder.

I doubt you get away with a 15 million dollar cap hit for all 3, id say 16-17 is a lot more realistic, and as I said before they can't trade Huet's contract, and they for sure won't waive him. Again Buhlin was a whole different thing, putting Huet's contract in the minors would be bad fiscally for the team's owner, and bad for the mangement because players who do sign will want that NMC, which in many peoples opinion is worth more than that extra money to both the players and mangement. Why would any sane team do that? In the cap world you want your assets to be as liquid as possible in just these situations where a trade could mean they keep a promising young player. Huet is just too visible for Chicago to waive him and bury him in the AHL.

[egroen 384]

No matter what, Chicago is treating a lot of its veteran (and even younger) players like chaff, which is something someone like Ken Holland goes painfully out of his way to avoid. It will affect their ability to sign free agents at discounts and many who come to Chicago in the future are going to try and hold out for no-trade and no-movement clauses.

[OsGOD 3]

Hossa back to Detroit at trade deadline, e5

*snicker*

the hawks wanna win the cup finally... getting rid of that load is the only way. Kudos to them for WAKING UP!