Jimmy Howard watch thread

[Guest zackmorris]

There is absolutely NO "good reason" to have benched Osgood more than just about any straight BACK UP in the League over the past two months.

None. Absolutely NONE.

He's an NHL coach. That likely knows more about hockey and coaching and psychological decision making than you ever will. So cut the bulls***. There's a perfectly good reason and you're obviously acting too densely to realize it. Howard's playing better and we need to start the guy who gives us the best shot at winning.

Winning is more important than getting your 37 year old back on track after he had his chances. We're halfway through, there's time for him later, when we can possibly spare it.

Alex Auld played more Games than Osgood last month. Martin Biron and Vesa Toskala played more Games in December than Osgood played. Manny freakin' Legace played more Games in December than Osgood played.

Do any of those goalies play for the Wings? Are any of them coached by Mike Babcock? Do any of them have starters playing as well as Howard?

This stopped being about "riding the hot goalie" a long time ago. LONG before Osgood's comments in the Detroit News on December 31st.

Yeah, uh huh. Said the Osgood fan.

Now it's a mind game. Thank heavens than quote conveniently came along, that seems to be the new excuse. What was it before that quote though?

And don't tell me he has it in for Ozzie, that's horse s***. He wouldn't have give him Hasek's spot in 08 and let him keep it if he did.

Edited January 7, 2010 by zackmorris

[Guest zackmorris]

And this differs from Osgood's goal, AND the results he puts up, in precisely what way?

Lmao@results. Weren't you just recently making excuses as to why Osgood hasn't won as much as Howard? He's only above .500 if you don't count OT losses. Which you should anyway.

You can harp about his all time record but this isn't 98, this isn't 2008, it's NOW. And what he did then, means s*** right now, currently. You don't win Cups with records and career numbers.

You're just blindly backing your guy.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

He's an NHL coach. That likely knows more about hockey and coaching and psychological decision making than you ever will. So cut the bulls***. There's a perfectly good reason and you're obviously acting too densely to realize it. Howard's playing better and we need to start the guy who gives us the best shot at winning.

And who gave us one of the worst shots at winning last game? Howard. And who is continuing to rust on the bench and get even more useless the more games his counterpart plays? Osgood.

Winning is more important than getting your 37 year old back on track after he had his chances. We're halfway through, there's time for him later, when we can possibly spare it.

And regardless of the record, you need to be reasonable with the amount of starts each goaltender takes. Babcock has shown he is not an expert on goaltending (can't be perfect at everything) and while it is noble to give Howard the rookie a lot of starts because he has done well so far, the fact remains that Howard is going to get tired with the workload he is being given right now and it is going to backfire (if you don't consider the Anaheim game that already).

Do any of those goalies play for the Wings? Are any of them coached by Mike Babcock? Do any of them have starters playing as well as Howard?

The monster in Toronto has been playing better than Toskola. And his point is still valid. Worse goaltenders are getting MORE starts than him despite Osgood playing with of a solid (not unbelievably good) rookie netminder.

Yeah, uh huh. Said the Osgood fan.

Now it's a mind game. Thank heavens than quote conveniently came along, that seems to be the new excuse. What was it before that quote though?

And don't tell me he has it in for Ozzie, that's horse s***. He wouldn't have give him Hasek's spot in 08 and let him keep it if he did.

I don't believe Outsider ever mentioned that Babcock had it out for Osgood.

[Pucks 66]

Comparing the situation with Toronto isn't really fair. The monster hasn't played quite as well as Howard. More importantly Toronto want's to trade Toskala, so they are trying to increase his trade value. They have been all year. Personally I think they're nuts. No one will give them anything at the deadline for Toskala.

[Pucks 66]

Well....let's take a look at that, shall we? Since Osgood re-signed with the Wings:

2005-2006 - 20-6-5

2006-2007 - 11-3-6

2007-2008 - 27-9-4

2008-2009 - 26-9-8

TERRIBLE numbers. Obviously. And, I daresay, had he more playing time this Season, he'd be posting much better numbers.

HISTORY has proven that. Over. And over. And over again.

Firstly: It's not an accurate observation. It's an opinion. You know what they say about opinions, don't you?

Secondly: Don't confuse your inability to frame a cogent, logical, fact based argument with "There's no arguing with the guy". You keep attacking my viewpoint, but have yet to refute anything I've posted with any form of acumen.

That's not my shortcoming. It's yours. And it's due to the fact that you're arguing from a flawed standpoint.

Let's look at a more individual stat instead of a team stat like wins.

2005-2006 .897 2.76 26 in the league

2006-2007 .907 2.38 33 in the league

2007-2008 .914 2.09 34 in the league

2008-2009 .887 3.09 76 in the league

2009 2010 .901 2.72 48 in the league

When I look at these numbers it doesn't impress me at all. One very good season, one very average and two poor seasons. This year obviously isn't over yet but it's shaping up for another mediocre effort. And let's not forget to state the obvious. These were numbers put up behind the best team in the league during this time span.

Edited January 7, 2010 by Pucks

[mmamolo 287]

Comparing the situation with Toronto isn't really fair. The monster hasn't played quite as well as Howard. More importantly Toronto want's to trade Toskala, so they are trying to increase his trade value. They have been all year. Personally I think they're nuts. No one will give them anything at the deadline for Toskala.

Plus the Leafs aren't in the same playoff struggle the Wings are. The East is more wide open and ground can be made up. The competition isn't the same The Leafs, although some what competitive at the moment, are still in rebuild mode. They'd take a 47th round draft pick for Toskala at this point - it's better than nothing. The Leafs are going to want to sell ppl off at the deadline and the only way to do that is to showcase them now. Hence, the starts for Toskala.

Detroit is tryign to grab every possible point they can right now and need to treat every game with that as their top priority. Our goal is to win today while the Leafs goal is to showcase players and prepare for the future with winning today being a bonus.

[Echolalia 2,961]

Didn't Osgood get a prolonged break late last year that he accredited his playoff success to? Granted he has been on the bench for a bit longer now than he was during that break, but I don't know if I buy that his being benched is necessarily a bad thing for his performance down the road.

[Guest zackmorris]

And who gave us one of the worst shots at winning last game? Howard. And who is continuing to rust on the bench and get even more useless the more games his counterpart plays? Osgood.

What the hell does this even mean? Do you mean Howard gave us a poor shot at winning? You'd have to mean based on previous games, because that's how the decision was made unless Babcock can see into the future in which case f*** this reply, I'm going to start praying to him. If you decided that somewhere during the game, the opinion is irrelevant. Hindsight is 20/20.

And regardless of the record, you need to be reasonable with the amount of starts each goaltender takes.

Why?

This is the mindset of a team who is comfortably in playoff contention. We are not, and the gap between 8th and 9th is growing. We need to start whoever is playing better. We're not at game 65. We're only at game 41-win now, and if we do, Ozzie gets his time later.

Priorities. Get them straight.

Babcock has shown he is not an expert on goaltending (can't be perfect at everything) and while it is noble to give Howard the rookie a lot of starts because he has done well so far, the fact remains that Howard is going to get tired with the workload he is being given right now and it is going to backfire (if you don't consider the Anaheim game that already).

I've never seen a goalie get tired from 3/4 of a seasons work. He's a professional athlete for crying out loud, and he's still a kid. Odds are he could play 75 games and be fine. Besides, if he's not starting in the playoffs, who gives a s***? Ozzie's going to get his starts, we all know that. So what's the issue?

Like I've said before, the "goalie rest" thing is bulls*** to me. When has a goalie ever looked sluggish? When has oen ever looked too tired to move from post to post? They're not running around, skating hard, half the time a goalie stands still for minutes at a time. Maybe moves sideways a tad. I'd bet my bottom dollar it's all psychosomatic. I've seen goalies win Cups with a ton of work, and goalies win Cups with a ton of rest.

The monster in Toronto has been playing better than Toskola. And his point is still valid. Worse goaltenders are getting MORE starts than him despite Osgood playing with of a solid (not unbelievably good) rookie netminder.

Context. We're not Toronto. Toronto's a flop house and everyone knows it. His other examples don't compare to the Wings, which is the point of a comparison. The Isles don't have someone playing as poorly as Ozzie and as well as Howard. There's also what Pucks said.

I don't believe Outsider ever mentioned that Babcock had it out for Osgood.

He's said that the whole doghouse thing has been going on for quite awhile. Same s***, different pile.

Edited January 7, 2010 by zackmorris

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

Let's look at a more individual stat instead of a team stat like wins.

2005-2006 .897 2.76 26 in the league

2006-2007 .907 2.38 33 in the league

2007-2008 .914 2.09 34 in the league

2008-2009 .887 3.09 76 in the league

2009 2010 .901 2.72 48 in the league

When I look at these numbers it doesn't impress me at all. One very good season, one very average and two poor seasons. This year obviously isn't over yet but it's shaping up for another mediocre effort. And let's not forget to state the obvious. These were numbers put up behind the best team in the league during this time span.

The entire point was to disprove the assertion that Osgood wasn't winning.

Strange that the guy hasn't had a losing season yet in the NHL, even when playing with the Isles and Blues.

Your argument doesn't discuss the issue at hand, so it's useless for you to bring up the "hurr plays with the system" nonsense.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

What the hell does this even mean? Do you mean Howard gave us a poor shot at winning? You'd have to mean based on previous games, because that's how the decision was made unless Babcock can see into the future in which case f*** this reply, I'm going to start praying to him. If you decided that somewhere during the game, the opinion is irrelevant. Hindsight is 20/20.

Howard is starting tonight, after having a poor performance in Anaheim.

Why?

This is the mindset of a team who is comfortably in playoff contention. We are not, and the gap between 8th and 9th is growing. We need to start whoever is playing better. We're not at game 65. We're only at game 41-win now, and if we do, Ozzie gets his time later.

Priorities. Get them straight.

You should get YOURS straight, since you think riding the hot hand is a good idea when that "hot" hand just cooled off in the Anaheim game.

I've never seen a goalie get tired from 3/4 of a seasons work. He's a professional athlete for crying out loud, and he's still a kid. Odds are he could play 75 games and be fine. Besides, if he's not starting in the playoffs, who gives a s***? Ozzie's going to get his starts, we all know that. So what's the issue?

The issue is Osgood is not getting his starts and Howard did not earn this last start. Howard CAN get tired with so many starts considering this is his first year with more than one or two games, his first year with NHL competition, and his first year with seven starts in a row. If you aren't used to it then you are going to be affected by it. End of story.

Like I've said before, the "goalie rest" thing is bulls*** to me. When has a goalie ever looked sluggish? When has oen ever looked too tired to move from post to post? They're not running around, skating hard, half the time a goalie stands still for minutes at a time. Maybe moves sideways a tad. I'd bet my bottom dollar it's all psychosomatic. I've seen goalies win Cups with a ton of work, and goalies win Cups with a ton of rest.

Not everything is physical. You can ignore the fact Howard did not have a good game in Anaheim (which you have been doing consistently) but the fact is he did not have a good game and suddenly giving him his seventh start after that is a bad idea. This isn't the Calgary Flames where you need to start the goaltender in 70 games. Osgood CAN win if he plays. He has proven that this year plenty.

Context. We're not Toronto. Toronto's a flop house and everyone knows it. His other examples don't compare to the Wings, which is the point of a comparison. The Isles don't have someone playing as poorly as Ozzie and as well as Howard. There's also what Pucks said.

Osgood isn't playing that poorly, and it is irrelevant. Toskola is a terrible goaltender and is still getting more starts. That isn't a good thing.

He's said that the whole doghouse thing has been going on for quite awhile. Same s***, different pile.

And I don't think it has to do with the fact Osgood slept with his wife or that he just doesn't like Osgood. I disagree with the assertion Outsider believes that as well.

[Guest zackmorris]

Howard is starting tonight, after having a poor performance in Anaheim.

It wasn't poor. It's only poor if you want something to back your argument.

You should get YOURS straight, since you think riding the hot hand is a good idea when that "hot" hand just cooled off in the Anaheim game.

I didn't know one game that was still considered good was cooling off.

The issue is Osgood is not getting his starts and Howard did not earn this last start.

Howard earned it by being consistent. Osgood hasn't been consistent since the playoffs, unless you count consistently shaky.

Howard CAN get tired with so many starts considering this is his first year with more than one or two games, his first year with NHL competition, and his first year with seven starts in a row. If you aren't used to it then you are going to be affected by it. End of story.

Uh, no, that may work with some of the idiots around here but not me. He's been playing hockey his whole life, and a goalies work in the AHL can arguably sometimes be more difficult than the NHL(from a physical exertion standpoint. Sorry but it's almost mandatory to write a disclaimer with the way your words get twisted around here). More movement, more to tire him out, but I guarantee he's not lazy on his workout routine. Hell, remember when he had to shape up in the AHL and get into better shape? That was probably some of the hardest work of his life and it came well before his trip to the NHL. He doesn't look tired and I'm not buying that he'll get that way after twenty-six games. Give us a break you must think we're retarded.

Not everything is physical. You can ignore the fact Howard did not have a good game in Anaheim (which you have been doing consistently) but the fact is he did not have a good game and suddenly giving him his seventh start after that is a bad idea.

Well gee, why isn't Doc coaching the team?

I'm sure we'd do just as well.

This isn't the Calgary Flames where you need to start the goaltender in 70 games. Osgood CAN win if he plays. He has proven that this year plenty.

Yeah by going sub .500

Osgood isn't playing that poorly, and it is irrelevant. Toskola is a terrible goaltender and is still getting more starts. That isn't a good thing.

You're completely ignoring context and logic. Swallow your pride, you were wrong. It was a stupid comparison in every conceivable way. Explain to me how it wasn't, stop just blindly regurgitating the premise of the argument.

And I don't think it has to do with the fact Osgood slept with his wife or that he just doesn't like Osgood. I disagree with the assertion Outsider believes that as well.

Cool.

Edited January 7, 2010 by zackmorris

[Zetts 236]

Chris Osgood is the 10th most successful goaltender in NHL History, Zetts. He was being fitted for his second Stanley Cup Ring while Babcock was toiling away with the Spokane Chiefs of the WHL, a good five years before Mike ever even made it to the Show.

That has to do with the past. That's why I said "anymore". Now, as I also already said, the team wins (in the regular season anyways) DESPITE Osgood, NOT because of him.

Babcock is so busy worrying about the METHOD Osgood employs to get from Point A to Point B, that he's lost sight of the fact that Osgood puts up results whether he does it in Babcock's demanding manner or not. And that's a fact. He should be less concerned with demanding that Ozzie toe the line, "Do it my way, do it MY WAY!", and more concerned that Osgood continue to do it WHATEVER WAY he sees fit.

What are talking about? His way? I suppose, if you consider successfully stopping pucks to be "his way" then yes, Osgood DOES have to do that.

Ozzie's way has earned him nearly 400 Career Victories, and a couple of those shiny diamond encrusted thingamajig's on his fingers. It's worked for him for SIXTEEN YEARS.

In. The. Past. He had a .887 save percentage last year. Yeah, he stepped it up for the playoffs. But now, we have to get into the playoffs first. There's no time to cater to Osgood's needs anymore. We have to win. Now. And Jimmy Howard's save percentage (and goal against average) are both MUCH better. I know your tired arguments for that, and I don't want to bring them into this thread as well. Which leads me to my next point.

Don't confuse your inability to frame a cogent, logical, fact based argument with "There's no arguing with the guy". You keep attacking my viewpoint, but have yet to refute anything I've posted with any form of acumen.

That's not my shortcoming. It's yours. And it's due to the fact that you're arguing from a flawed standpoint.

Please. I've framed several arguments in the other thread which you ham-handedly dismissed. As you have also done with many other people. There's nothing left to bother saying in this thread about that, as it would just be re-hashing the same arguments, which have proved to be a waste of time with you.

It's not an accurate observation. It's an opinion. You know what they say about opinions, don't you?

It's based on empirical observation of the now 24 (I think?) pages in that other thread. You use the same arguments which have already been successfully defeated.

...and no, I don't know what they say about opinions?

For the purpose of THIS thread though, as this is about Howard, not Osgood, what I think this conversation should come down to is this:

Osgood may play better in the playoffs. It doesn't matter though. We have to get there. Which means we have to win. If the two alternatives are making the playoffs and throwing in a cold Osgood, or not making the playoffs at all, but having Osgood in top form at the end of the season, guess which one I'll take.

And if you actually try to say that Osgood is playing as well as Howard right now there really is no reasoning with you.

Edited January 7, 2010 by Zetts

[Zetts 236]

The entire point was to disprove the assertion that Osgood wasn't winning.

Strange that the guy hasn't had a losing season yet in the NHL, even when playing with the Isles and Blues.

Your argument doesn't discuss the issue at hand, so it's useless for you to bring up the "hurr plays with the system" nonsense.

Osgood isn't winning. The Red Wings are. Osgood just happens to be in net sometimes.

Edit: If you don't believe me, I think Pucks' post of stats a few posts up nicely summarizes it.

Edited January 7, 2010 by Zetts

[Pucks 66]

The entire point was to disprove the assertion that Osgood wasn't winning.

Strange that the guy hasn't had a losing season yet in the NHL, even when playing with the Isles and Blues.

Your argument doesn't discuss the issue at hand, so it's useless for you to bring up the "hurr plays with the system" nonsense.

Yeah he was such a star for the Isles and Blues that they wanted nothing more to do with him. They chose to go in another direction just like we did. Look the guy was desperate to get back to detroit. He knew where his bread was buttered. He's no dummy. His number with those clubs weren;t anything special either .884, .910. He played decent but wasn't a deciding factor present or in their future.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

Yeah he was such a star for the Isles and Blues that they wanted nothing more to do with him. They chose to go in another direction just like we did. Look the guy was desperate to get back to detroit. He knew where his bread was buttered. He's no dummy. His number with those clubs weren;t anything special either .884, .910. He played decent but wasn't a deciding factor present or in their future.

Once again you dodge the point.

Osgood won there. And won more games than he lost there. And made the playoffs for those teams. End of story.

Zack: You cannot be serious to think that letting in two soft goals is a good game. Like, you have to be completely out of your ******* mind to continue to tell me with a straight face that two soft goals and a 3.00 GAA is somehow a "good" game. Explain this s*** to me. Because it could have been worse? Well honestly based on that we should forget the two softies Osgood let in against Chicago since he could have let in more in the third but played great then. And he only let in three goals just like Howard.

How are these situations different?

Osgood isn't winning. The Red Wings are. Osgood just happens to be in net sometimes.

Edit: If you don't believe me, I think Pucks' post of stats a few posts up nicely summarizes it.

Well then it shouldn't matter if Osgood starts, then. Should it?

Edited January 8, 2010 by Doc Holliday

[Opie 308]

Can we keep the argument to one thread, otherwise they will both get closed and I would like to check this thread from time to time as the year progresses!

[kook_10 1,705]

/thread

[Pavel Hossyukstrom 2]

51 saves!! that is all!

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

Good job Jimmy. Glad I was wrong about Babs putting you in there.

[thedisappearer 291]

Huh? He let in a goal *and* didn't cure cancer? What a miserable goalie.

[Carman 387]

Good to see Howard can respond after not playing great verse Anaheim. He's progressing very well.

[Gordie Howe hat trick 110]

J-Ho's performance tonight silences the doubters I say. If Osgood were in there we would have lost. Great job Jimmy, I knew you would silence the doubters eventually.

[Carman 387]

J-Ho's performance tonight silences the doubters I say. If Osgood were in there we would have lost. Great job Jimmy, I knew you would silence the doubters eventually.

No reason to say Osgood would of lost, that can't be proven and doesn't really contribute much other than fueling the Osgood lovers.

Let's all just be happy for Jimmy Howard and leave it at that.

[Outsider 42]

Howard was absolutely fantastic tonight.

I said it in the GDT, and I'll repeat it here. Babcock made the right decision in going with Howard tonight.

That was the very definition of a stolen game.

[Hockeytown0001 7,652]

Jimmy's the man