Jimmy Howard watch thread

[Guest zackmorris]

Nabby, he's at his level or below despite stealing games against teams like Chicago and such so I don't consider him a Vezina candidate. Brodeur is one of the best for a reason (in fact the "no rebounds" argument you make helps his case because he has possibly the best rebound control of any goaltender and the fact he has few second save scenarios means that he is doing his job better than anyone else). Also consider that Howard, despite his play, has relied on the defense to bail him out on his rebounds on multiple occasions, even during the LA game that he stole. I don't consider the stigma of Osgood to be any kind of factor because the last few years Osgood has split starts with the other goaltender. Normally the number 1 starts 50 games or more. Howard is a rookie, and I think of that when I talk playoffs or the future, but not right now. He could be a Vezina candidate but I don't think his statistics and his game against LA will be enough to put him above the rest of the pack.

Rebound control is the most overrated stat as far as goalies go. Go check out BIAF or some other research blogs who have looked into it-it's really just a decoration and a tool. It's nothing overly important. I've seen Brodeur leave massive rebounds in his time, it's just that rebound control is something you read about and not watch for specifically. Not most people.

Give Howard a little credit. It's not just his game in LA, obviously and I think you know that. He's more or less automatic on a team that, in spite of bailing him out now and again, has needed to be bailed out by a goalie even more.

Again with the double standards, also. Howard gets a few rebounds swept up and suddenly he has credit stolen away from him...yet Brodeur has had THE absolute best defense in the league at sweeping up second chances and rebounds and slot opportunities...yet he's the best? It's just the NHL selling us a player and we all bought in because we're sheep.

Besides, you can tell me what Howard's doing now and your (let's be honest, argumentative) viewpoint on it, but I'll say it again-I said if. Alot of 'if' scenarios. If Howard gets 35 wins, has a GAA around 2.15 and a save percentage around .925, you really think he wouldn't be a candidate? On a team that's had half of it's roster hurt and would've buried any other goalie with the kinds of shots and scoring chances we've given up? C'mon.

[eva unit zero 271]

Rebound control is the most overrated stat as far as goalies go. Go check out BIAF or some other research blogs who have looked into it-it's really just a decoration and a tool. It's nothing overly important. I've seen Brodeur leave massive rebounds in his time, it's just that rebound control is something you read about and not watch for specifically. Not most people.

Give Howard a little credit. It's not just his game in LA, obviously and I think you know that. He's more or less automatic on a team that, in spite of bailing him out now and again, has needed to be bailed out by a goalie even more.

Again with the double standards, also. Howard gets a few rebounds swept up and suddenly he has credit stolen away from him...yet Brodeur has had THE absolute best defense in the league at sweeping up second chances and rebounds and slot opportunities...yet he's the best? It's just the NHL selling us a player and we all bought in because we're sheep.

Besides, you can tell me what Howard's doing now and your (let's be honest, argumentative) viewpoint on it, but I'll say it again-I said if. Alot of 'if' scenarios. If Howard gets 35 wins, has a GAA around 2.15 and a save percentage around .925, you really think he wouldn't be a candidate? On a team that's had half of it's roster hurt and would've buried any other goalie with the kinds of shots and scoring chances we've given up? C'mon.

Watch video from Brodeur's early years, or watch him now. Watch Howard play. Brodeur has ALWAYS controlled his rebounds much better than Howard does. He either absorbs the puck and didn't leave a rebound, or redirects it to an area where it would not be dangerous. Howard's rebound control is far less adept, as he often leaves juicy rebounds in the slot or by the circles just waiting to be picked up and put in the net past a recovering netminder. Howard also has positioning issues and decision making problems.

This is not to say he hasn't been doing very well; but if the team weren't sweeping those rebounds away he wouldn't look nearly as good. Brodeur never needed his defense to sweep his rebounds away. Never. As far as Howard's problems? They are all pretty much interrelated. His positioning issues and rebound control are hand-in-hand. As one improves, so does the other. And Howard's decision making affects it because he comes past the edge of the crease too often. As he learns when it is and isn't ok to make a move like that, and where he should be on the ice, he'll get better at absorbing and redirecting the puck.

So in other words, Howard will either proceed to become the elite netminder he was once projected to be, or he will fail to improve this 'trinity' of weaknesses he has and will go on to be the next Andrew Raycroft or Dan Cloutier.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

Rebound control is the most overrated stat as far as goalies go. Go check out BIAF or some other research blogs who have looked into it-it's really just a decoration and a tool. It's nothing overly important. I've seen Brodeur leave massive rebounds in his time, it's just that rebound control is something you read about and not watch for specifically. Not most people.

Well if we are going by the fact that Brodeur eats up a lot of the shots he gets then no it is not overrated.

If your goaltender has to make a second save on most shots due to rebounds then he isn't doing his job as effectively as the other guy. And we are talking about the potential Vezina goaltenders.

Give Howard a little credit. It's not just his game in LA, obviously and I think you know that. He's more or less automatic on a team that, in spite of bailing him out now and again, has needed to be bailed out by a goalie even more.

Which is arguable. I think a big reason people are so high on the Vezina idea is the fact that he is exceeding expectations a lot.

Again with the double standards, also. Howard gets a few rebounds swept up and suddenly he has credit stolen away from him...yet Brodeur has had THE absolute best defense in the league at sweeping up second chances and rebounds and slot opportunities...yet he's the best? It's just the NHL selling us a player and we all bought in because we're sheep.

When Brodeur lets in multiple juicy rebounds that his defense swipes away every game this may make sense. I've seen him play and he is a great goaltender. Considering he plays in the East it is hard to be completely objective because we will look at statistics to measure his skill, then knock those statistics down because of the team in front of him. Well the team in front of him isn't the best defense in the league and it isn't like he is getting THAT many fewer shots against per game than Detroit is. (the answer is 2 fewer shots per game). In fact on average both teams have outshot the opposition by 3 shots.

Besides, you can tell me what Howard's doing now and your (let's be honest, argumentative) viewpoint on it, but I'll say it again-I said if. Alot of 'if' scenarios. If Howard gets 35 wins, has a GAA around 2.15 and a save percentage around .925, you really think he wouldn't be a candidate? On a team that's had half of it's roster hurt and would've buried any other goalie with the kinds of shots and scoring chances we've given up? C'mon.

Once again, that is an if, and it will depend on how he plays during the games. His statistics are not the only indicator and shouldn't be. Right now I don't think he is in contention but there is still half the season to go. And personally I don't think Babcock cares if he wins the Vezina or not.

[Pucks 66]

He plays a lot of rebounds on purpose. Usually kicks them out beyond the crease out of danger but it's the high ones that seem to give him trouble. The one tonight he should have just caught, but instead he played it with his shoulder or upper chest area for some reason. Even then, he could have covered it but he hesitated for a second and kind of froze.

He looks weird in net sometimes, he reminds me a lot of Tim Thomas. Just battles. It seems like there's so may games where he just allows 1 goal. Can't ask for much more than that out of your goalie.

Read that he might get both starts in Dallas and Chicago. I hope he's taking his vitamins.

[Guest zackmorris]

Watch video from Brodeur's early years, or watch him now. Watch Howard play. Brodeur has ALWAYS controlled his rebounds much better than Howard does. He either absorbs the puck and didn't leave a rebound, or redirects it to an area where it would not be dangerous.

When I watch Brodeur, I see a goalie who controls the rebounds he can control, like any goalie. It's more chance than most people who don't actually watch and study it will assume. When I watch Brodeur I don't see this almighty beacon of rebound control greatness.

Want to know something interesting? Scott Clemmenson, when he got his chance, faced less rebound shots than Brodeur. He faced more shots, and had less rebounds against. Yet that was the one thing people claimed was better about Brodeur when Clemmenson came in and played exactly the same as Marty did. Why? Well, it clearly wasn't because they watched every game and decided it. No, it's for the same reason it happens in sports across the board-some players get labelled in certain ways. Brodeur has many talents but rebound control is overrated and almost non existent if you really look at the numbers. All in all, the numbers for both guys were tiny. No one thinks about it when we see a defender sweep up a rebound, it's one of the quickest things the mind either forgets or ignores once it happens.

Want to know another interesting fact? Brodeur's percentage of rebound shots was higher than almost any other goalie. The numbers are all there and are taken, but aren't well known due to the NHL not officially recognizing them. Not many people are aware that not only is his rebound control not as godly as we'd be lead to believe but it was actually pretty poor for a stretch. Funny....not a single mention of it. Kari Lehtonen faced almost double the shots Brodeur did, and gave up more or less just as many rebound shots. Yet, who the hell is talking about Lehtonen's rebound control?

Maybe it's just the media influencing our mindset in regards to things we don't naturally even think about?

Howard has shown problems in judgment more than rebound control. I'm a goalie, I understand the issue. He's focused on making the first save, like any goalie is. The vast majority of the time you have no way to control where it goes. Often what we refer to as rebound control is really just judgment after the shot. If Howard tonight had cut off the angle a little more and made a routine save, we wouldn't even have thought about it for more than a second. It wasn't the rebound, the bounce is just physics and chance and gravity, no goalie controls that short of snagging it with the glove but that's not always possible. It's more the reaction to it. He needs to learn there, he's showing his age, but overall, the sheer number of rebound shots faced is minuscule in the long run and is a very overrated statistic. If you're interested in the numbers I'll post them but without making this reply longer, the average is around 1.6 per game. Seriously. Not even 2. It's nothing. Here's a dead-on quote straight from BIAF about it.

Rebound control is especially prone to being overemphasized because it is an obvious skill. You don't have to know much about goaltending technique to know whether a goalie is controlling his rebounds, you just need to watch where the puck ends up after it hits him. Lots of people who aren't goalies can speak knowledgeably about a goalie's rebound control.

This is not to say he hasn't been doing very well; but if the team weren't sweeping those rebounds away he wouldn't look nearly as good. Brodeur never needed his defense to sweep his rebounds away. Never.

Are you f***in kidding? Why don't I just tell you Nicklas Lidstrom never needed to have a good stick because he was such a good hitter. The Devils have been a premier defensive unit since Marty started out and have been experts at clearing the crease and the slot. Sorry to say it in such terms, but this has to be pulled directly out of your ass. This is like saying water isn't wet and the sky is purple.

Part of what's making Howard look great is his positioning. We should know that, having watched Osgood fumble with angles for the last two seasons. Howard knows when to cut the angles off, when to come out further and when not to. His mistakes will be corrected but in general, his positioning is terrific. He makes himself huge and it shows.

Edited January 15, 2010 by zackmorris

[Guest zackmorris]

Well if we are going by the fact that Brodeur eats up a lot of the shots he gets then no it is not overrated.

If your goaltender has to make a second save on most shots due to rebounds then he isn't doing his job as effectively as the other guy. And we are talking about the potential Vezina goaltenders.

Yeah but that's the thing, no goalie has to. The numbers are minuscule. Barely there. Rebounds aren't as big a thing as we think. They just seem bigger.

Which is arguable. I think a big reason people are so high on the Vezina idea is the fact that he is exceeding expectations a lot.

Arguable in the sense that you'd argue anything just to do it? Or that it's actually arguable? When speaking to you, there's a difference. And quit it with this s*** would ya? You can blow your horn all day about how we bail Howard out of trouble non stop, yet when someone suggests Howard does his fair share, suddenly it's "oh...uh...well...that's arguable". Yeah, ok. If we sweep up turnovers for him, how many times have we coughed up the puck only to have Jimmy bail our asses out? You're probably going to argue this because short of showing you clips, you'll just say you don't remember or it didn't happen often. But Howard has saved our bacon countless times.

When Brodeur lets in multiple juicy rebounds that his defense swipes away every game this may make sense. I've seen him play and he is a great goaltender. Considering he plays in the East it is hard to be completely objective because we will look at statistics to measure his skill, then knock those statistics down because of the team in front of him. Well the team in front of him isn't the best defense in the league and it isn't like he is getting THAT many fewer shots against per game than Detroit is. (the answer is 2 fewer shots per game). In fact on average both teams have outshot the opposition by 3 shots.

You shouldn't assume I don't watch him. I do. Believe it or not it's part of my job description.

Besides, "multiple juicy rebounds" comes out to about probably 1 or 2 a game. Do you even watch? I mean really, or are you just going with the grain? It happens so often in sports I'd bet my last red cent you don't actually watch or pay attention to rebounds. Refer to the post above to see just how "amazing" ol' Marty is at controlling rebounds.

Once again, that is an if, and it will depend on how he plays during the games. His statistics are not the only indicator and shouldn't be. Right now I don't think he is in contention but there is still half the season to go. And personally I don't think Babcock cares if he wins the Vezina or not.

Stats aren't an indicator and shouldn't be the lone factor, but they usually are like it or not.

If they aren't, and we're judging individual scenario, that's even better. He's played on a team that's hung him out to dry more often than not and he's saved our asses. Without him we were garbage, our PK was laughable and we were on a one way ticket to last place. F R E E F A L L. He's helped turn our PK around with stops that, sorry to say, Ozzie would've let in and killed us. He makes huge stops, timely stops and is consistent as hell. Has he even had a real stretch with a full squad in front of him? A full D? Most goalies would've wilted and died with the s*** we've put him through.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

Yeah but that's the thing, no goalie has to. The numbers are minuscule. Barely there. Rebounds aren't as big a thing as we think. They just seem bigger.

Really? A goalie's ability to control a rebound is irrelevant to how good he is?

Arguable in the sense that you'd argue anything just to do it? Or that it's actually arguable? When speaking to you, there's a difference. And quit it with this s*** would ya? You can blow your horn all day about how we bail Howard out of trouble non stop, yet when someone suggests Howard does his fair share, suddenly it's "oh...uh...well...that's arguable". Yeah, ok. If we sweep up turnovers for him, how many times have we coughed up the puck only to have Jimmy bail our asses out? You're probably going to argue this because short of showing you clips, you'll just say you don't remember or it didn't happen often. But Howard has saved our bacon countless times.

I never said Howard doesn't do his fair share. He does. However we are talking about him bailing out his team much more (much more if the key phrase) and yes that is arguable. Just because you wave your arms around and say "oh he bails out his teammates ALL THE TIME" but that isn't suddenly a fact and that isn't going to magically win him the Vezina.

You shouldn't assume I don't watch him. I do. Believe it or not it's part of my job description.

Besides, "multiple juicy rebounds" comes out to about probably 1 or 2 a game. Do you even watch? I mean really, or are you just going with the grain? It happens so often in sports I'd bet my last red cent you don't actually watch or pay attention to rebounds. Refer to the post above to see just how "amazing" ol' Marty is at controlling rebounds.

I won't even answer because it is splitting hairs to the actual issue. Howard does have an issue with rebound control and everyone and their mothers has said it at one point. That's the fact and your accusation of whether I pay attention or not is meaningless unless you believe that everyone who has said that doesn't pay attention.

Stats aren't an indicator and shouldn't be the lone factor, but they usually are like it or not.

If they aren't, and we're judging individual scenario, that's even better. He's played on a team that's hung him out to dry more often than not and he's saved our asses. Without him we were garbage, our PK was laughable and we were on a one way ticket to last place. F R E E F A L L. He's helped turn our PK around with stops that, sorry to say, Ozzie would've let in and killed us. He makes huge stops, timely stops and is consistent as hell. Has he even had a real stretch with a full squad in front of him? A full D? Most goalies would've wilted and died with the s*** we've put him through.

This kind of unsubstantiated phrasing is not the best way to prove your point.

[Broken 16 381]

Rebounds is something Jimmy needs to work on, but people do seem to blow his rebound control 'problem' WAY out of proportion.

Edited January 15, 2010 by Broken 16

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

Rebounds is something Jimmy needs to work on, but people blow do seem to blow his rebound control 'problem' WAY out of proportion.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think it is a game-breaker or anything. It isn't like Howard is giving the puck directly to the opposition on every shot.

I'm just saying that it is something he needs to work on and it has hurt him on occasion. And that is something that needs to be looked at when discussing his current performance.

[Broken 16 381]

Don't get me wrong, I don't think it is a game-breaker or anything. It isn't like Howard is giving the puck directly to the opposition on every shot.

I'm just saying that it is something he needs to work on and it has hurt him on occasion. And that is something that needs to be looked at when discussing his current performance.

I'd be curious to see how many of his rebounds have led to 2nd and 3rd chances. I wonder if that could be the reason that the teams Shots Allowed stat seems much higher this season.

I suck with stats.

Edited January 15, 2010 by Broken 16

[Echolalia 2,961]

Updated, and back into the top 5 in sv% and GAA

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

Also I would like to point out the Vezina voting of 2008 (the same year that Dan Ellis lead the league in sv%)

Top five in sv%

1. Dan Ellis (44 GP)

2. Ty Conklin (35 GP)

3. J.S. Giguere (58 GP)

4. Tim Thomas (57 GP)

5. MA Fleury (35 GP)

8. Martin Brodeur (77 GP)

18. Henrik Lundqvist (72 GP)

23. Evgeni Nabakov (77 GP)

Top five in GAA

1. Chris Osgood (43 GP)

2. JS Giguere (58 GP)

3. Evgeni Nabakov (77 GP)

4. Dominik Hasek (41 GP)

5. Martin Brodeur (77 GP)

It would take this same consistent play and then some to be considered for the Vezina, which by Brodeur's winning shows it is a big reputation award.

[Echolalia 2,961]

It appears how many games were played is a crucial component to Vezina voting.

[titanium2 867]

If Jimmy simply gets nominated for the Calder it'll be quite an accomplishment. Especially since he'll join the company of Yzerman, Lidstrom and Zetterberg ( stupid Jackman) as far as recent Red Wings go.

[Echolalia 2,961]

Updated. Now he's in top 3 for both sv% and GAA league wide. He's getting a well deserved break tonight.

[Opie 308]

I had very lofty hopes for Howard going into this season, his has exeeded every one of them!

[titanium2 867]

Last night he was the #1 star with 46 saves on 48 shots.

He's also 5th in league save percentage among goaltenders as of this moment.

[Pucks 66]

Sweet pic! I couldn't believe he got his pad all the way over there, neither could the Nashville player.

Edited January 30, 2010 by Pucks

[Echolalia 2,961]

Shoot guys, I'm sorry for not updating in a while! I kind of forgot about it, I guess. Anyway, tis updated.

[dat's sick 1,002]

Sweet pic! I couldn't believe he got his pad all the way over there, neither could the Nashville player.

To be honest I think the puck hit the outside of the post, still good work by Howie to get his bad over there though.

[Hockeytown0001 7,652]

46 saves on 47 Pittsburgh shots for a .979 SV percent. Good game for Howard, too bad they guys in front didn't play better for him.

[hokeychik22 17]

jimmy's good. sure he lets in a goal, what goalie doesn't? i think jimmy has been one of few wings that have done good all season. he tries

[hokeychik22 17]

I hear you. Story of my posting life on here. Funny thing is, in the end, I'm usually right, but no one remembers that.

There are so many places I can go with this... so many jokes... brain... hurts... too many possibilities...

when i saw this only had a few things too. hockey brains all work alike

[Echolalia 2,961]

updated

[Echolalia 2,961]

updated.

I wasn't happy about either of the goals that Jimmy let past him, but I am very relieved to see that he maintained his composure and remained strong for the remainder of the game.