104 replies to this topic

[Shoreline]

I have been a Wings fan for as long as I can remember. However I have lived in San Diego my whole life so I rarely get to discuss the team with anyone who follows them like I do. Now don't get me wrong, I feel like Flip is an alright player, but can not understand why is has practically been crowned as the next Hank or Dats. Even though he has only played 38 games this year, his statistics are still nothing special especially considering he is supposed to be a skill/finesse player. His defense is suspect, he needs to play stronger, and his stick handling while exceptional, hardly merits the praise his overall game receives from the loyal wings fans on the site. Please inform me on something I may be missing. I don't get to watch every game but I watch an many as one can being from San Diego.

I've always loved it when people, especially newly registered users, start off with "I've been a Wings fan since 1679!", as if that's supposed to give their argument some sort of instant oatmeal of credibility merely because they state this.

Flip is played pretty often on the PK and Power Play for a specific reason, and that's because he's a decent two way forward, and deserves the positive attention he gets, as well as the pay. This season has been rather unremarkable for him (missed a bunch of games due to injury) and the rest of the team (similar reasons, injuries), but it doesn't merit this sort of overreaction and player bashing. Few sensible people compare him directly with Hank and Dats, as Flip has never had "impressive" stats (if you really do watch games I dunno why you would be stat-centric), but besides his lack of touch in finishing plays in the offensive end (that's one thing he sorely needs to work on), he's not done much wrong, which is greater than average for the team this season.

[superstarsingh]

when filppula is in his "prime", he still won't be a 30 goal scorer. Hossa at age 35 will likely still be scoring more goals than filppula. "Hindering the team for the future" is a stretch considering that with hossa signed, fillpula could have been moved for prospects/picks.

btw, the phrase is "i couldn't care less".

Lets implant Hossa's current contract and remove Flip. Think about that. Hinders the future. It was mentioned above that the choice was between Franzen and Hossa and come playoff time, we will be grateful that Holland chose Franzen. Sorry that I am not an expert on expressions. You don't see me asking you why you don't start all of your sentences with capitals.

[wingsownnhl43]

when filppula is in his "prime", he still won't be a 30 goal scorer. Hossa at age 35 will likely still be scoring more goals than filppula. "Hindering the team for the future" is a stretch considering that with hossa signed, fillpula could have been moved for prospects/picks.

btw, the phrase is "i couldn't care less".

When Hossa Is 36 he will still have six years left on his contract. Think about that. You can only sign so many players to long term deals.

[lilja4mvp]

When Hossa Is 36 he will still have six years left on his contract. Think about that. You can only sign so many players to long term deals.

the chances of hossa playing out the entire contract are about the same chances that filppula ever scores 30 goals.

i.e. - none.

[RedWingAbner]

the chances of hossa playing out the entire contract are about the same chances that filppula ever scores 30 goals.

i.e. - none.

Exactly. Also, since Hossa was under 35 when he signed that deal, if he retired before its conclusion, the cap hit disappears. It'll be interesting to see what happens with it.

[wingsownnhl43]

the chances of hossa playing out the entire contract are about the same chances that filppula ever scores 30 goals.

i.e. - none.

Good Point. Its impossible to debate how long Hossa plays. What we do know is that it is evident Hossa has no loyalty. I could definitely see him sticking it out just to keep getting paid. That is purely speculation on my part though. Who knows, itll be interesting to see how everything plays out.

I do agree with you that we need another top 6 forward however.

Edited by wingsownnhl43, 10 March 2010 - 11:03 AM.

[RedWingAbner]

Good Point. Its impossible to debate how long Hossa plays. What we do know is that it is evident Hossa has no loyalty. I could definitely see him sticking it out just to keep getting paid. That is purely speculation on my part though. Who knows, itll be interesting to see how everything plays out.

I do agree with you that we need another top 6 forward however.

Why do we know, definitively, the Hossa has no loyalty?

Does Kovalchuk have no loyalty because he wouldn't re-up with Atlanta?

What does he owe Pittsburgh? Detroit?

It's hard to say he's disloyal when put into situations where the writing was on the wall. Pittsburgh knew he was a UFA. Detroit knew he was probably a one-and-done.

[superstarsingh]

Hossa was never necessary in the first place. They won without him and lost with him. Is it his fault? Absolutely not. But I think that the loss of Samuelsson and Huds trumps the loss of Hossa. I understand this retirement argument but say Hossa retires at the age of 38/39, Flip would be 31/32 then and producing more than he is now. His numbers will never match Hossa's but he can produce on this team. When they won the cup it was ZDH and Franzen-Flip-Hudler/Cleary/Sammy. Flip is a second line centre and when he is able to play in that slot he is productive proof of that is the Cup run in 08.

There are far more Flip haters than lovers here.

[EZBAKETHAGANGSTA]

Lets implant Hossa's current contract and remove Flip. Think about that. Hinders the future. It was mentioned above that the choice was between Franzen and Hossa and come playoff time, we will be grateful that Holland chose Franzen. Sorry that I am not an expert on expressions. You don't see me asking you why you don't start all of your sentences with capitals.

If Hossa signed with the Wing's the exact same contract he did with the Hawks (which would most probably be slightly higher than what he would have with us), the Wing's would only be hindered to sign depth next year should Lidstrom's contract be around 5+.

Due to current inflation treands, and the bad NA economy, the cap by the time Hossa is 38 will almost assurdly be over 70 million, making his relative cap hit far less. In addition for all the "outrage" it caused with the NHL, they have still yet to do ANYTHING to the Hawks, and unlikely that they will. What are they supposed to say... allright Guy's you found a loophole that was technically legal, but we expect our GM's to operate on highstanards so you'll be docked some cash and some draft picks? um... no.

Hossa would most probably not play more past 38ish, and seeing as how by the time he is that age, his salary would fit a Dan Cleary like player, only slight overpayment would occur.

Hossa was never necessary in the first place. They won without him and lost with him. Is it his fault? Absolutely not. But I think that the loss of Samuelsson and Huds trumps the loss of Hossa. I understand this retirement argument but say Hossa retires at the age of 38/39, Flip would be 31/32 then and producing more than he is now. His numbers will never match Hossa's but he can produce on this team. When they won the cup it was ZDH and Franzen-Flip-Hudler/Cleary/Sammy. Flip is a second line centre and when he is able to play in that slot he is productive proof of that is the Cup run in 08.

There are far more Flip haters than lovers here.

Yes, but the way I see it keeping Hossa helps us a lot more in the short term than he would hurt in the long run. Player's like Val, especailly the way he is being underutilized, are far more replacable. Just my opinion though.

[superstarsingh]

And it makes sense to you guys to have Zetterberg, Franzen, Datsyuk, Hossa or Flip locked in for a minimum of five years? So who is the Brad Richards of that group? Hell, who is the Dan Boyle?

[ben_usmc]

why don't we question the contract given to Dan Cleary who has been useless as f*** this entire season.

[RedWingAbner]

why don't we question the contract given to Dan Cleary who has been useless as f*** this entire season.

Good point.

[superstarsingh]

Yes, but the way I see it keeping Hossa helps us a lot more in the short term than he would hurt in the long run. Player's like Val, especailly the way he is being underutilized, are far more replacable. Just my opinion though.

He is underutilized. I don't think it would be easy to find a replacement for Flip. He is very solid both ways. Would it be better to have a scoring winger than Flip? Well obviously but the reality is that the Wings have 3 centremen that belong in the top two lines which leaves Flip on the third line. ZDH should be together as well as Franzen, Flip and Williams/Bert/Cleary. That is what I believe.

why don't we question the contract given to Dan Cleary who has been useless as f*** this entire season.

Cleary is good for 20 goals and 40 points (past three seasons). He has played 54 games this year and has 29 points. He usually plays 70-77 games a season so I will not factor in the 12 games he missed due to injury (even though it could have affected him upon returning to he lineup). With 16 games left, he is one pace to hit his numbers or at least come close. The Wings do not expect Cleary to be a 50 point player but I am sure you know that.

Edited by superstarsingh, 10 March 2010 - 11:38 AM.

[RedWingAbner]

And it makes sense to you guys to have Zetterberg, Franzen, Datsyuk, Hossa or Flip locked in for a minimum of five years? So who is the Brad Richards of that group? Hell, who is the Dan Boyle?

With Zetterberg ($6), Franzen ($3.95), Datsyuk ($6.7), and Hossa ($5), you have $22 million invested.

With Zetterberg ($6), Franzen ($3.95), Datsyuk ($6.7), Filppula ($3), and Cleary ($2.8), you have about $22.8 million invested.

Which grouping would you rather have?

[ben_usmc]

If Hossa signed with the Wing's the exact same contract he did with the Hawks (which would most probably be slightly higher than what he would have with us), the Wing's would only be hindered to sign depth next year should Lidstrom's contract be around 5+.

Due to current inflation treands, and the bad NA economy, the cap by the time Hossa is 38 will almost assurdly be over 70 million, making his relative cap hit far less. In addition for all the "outrage" it caused with the NHL, they have still yet to do ANYTHING to the Hawks, and unlikely that they will. What are they supposed to say... allright Guy's you found a loophole that was technically legal, but we expect our GM's to operate on highstanards so you'll be docked some cash and some draft picks? um... no.

Hossa would most probably not play more past 38ish, and seeing as how by the time he is that age, his salary would fit a Dan Cleary like player, only slight overpayment would occur.



Yes, but the way I see it keeping Hossa helps us a lot more in the short term than he would hurt in the long run. Player's like Val, especailly the way he is being underutilized, are far more replacable. Just my opinion though.

Once again you have no idea what the cap 6 years from now, so you would potentially hinder yourself with a lot of long term contracts because you have NOf****** CLUE what the cap hit is. (Stop running on assumptions and saying it's fact.) Also what happens if Hossa doesn't want to retire? Does Chicago cut him? Does that piss Hossa off and say something about them signing him with intentions of retiring before contract ends? Once again unless you have a crystal ball shoved up your ass you have no idea what the distant future holds (especially on a contract like that), but I sure would not want to be hindered because I gave a s*** ton of long term contracts out. Also how is Flip overpaid yet Dan Cleary is SLIGHTLY overpaid, if Hossa=Cleary overpayment then it certainly isn't worth it because Cleary has been invisible. But you are right Flip is compeltely being underutilized, Babcock needs to take Cleary/Williams off the 2nd a Flip on them. If he can't put up points on the 2nd and is just relegated to the 3rd line for the rest of his contract then I would agree he is overpaid. I don't care the line up but have Homer/Flip/Dats/Z/Franzen/ all on the top 6, I would think Helm has EARNED time up there but talent wise idk.

[superstarsingh]

With Zetterberg ($6), Franzen ($3.95), Datsyuk ($6.7), and Hossa ($5), you have $22 million invested.

With Zetterberg ($6), Franzen ($3.95), Datsyuk ($6.7), Filppula ($3), and Cleary ($2.8), you have about $22.8 million invested.

Which grouping would you rather have?

The grouping that is more spread out. Cleary is suited for playoff hockey and you need role players like him in order to win and Flip has played well in the past two runs. Sure Cleary and Flip can be "replaced" but I would rather have the two of them than Hossa. Hossa is a great player and I have no bias against him, I just know that he was not needed to win.

Edited by superstarsingh, 10 March 2010 - 11:48 AM.

[Buppy]

Yes, I remember saying that--never.

I do remember Johan Franzen scoring 27 and 34 goals in consecutive seasons and putting up 13 in the 08 Cup run.

It not much of a financial jump from Flip ($3M cap hit) to Franzen ($3.9M cap hit). The difference between the two is Franzen isn't being paid on potential.
...

Franzen is very much being paid on potential. Perhaps even more so than Flip. Remember, Franzen's deal is for 11 years. There is considerable projection in making that kind of commitment. Who knows what Mule will be like in 5-8-10 years. Who knows what the cap will be like. Franzen's SALARY this year is $5.5 million. Flip's is $2.5. What they will make in the future (and thus what their cap hit works out to) is based entirely on projection.

Which leads me to those saying keeping Flip cost us Hossa. I didn't bother reading the poll, as the premise is ludicrous. With Franzen and Zetterberg both on 10+ year deals, and the prospect of needing to replace Lidstrom soon (and probably Rafalski as well), and many other players needing new contracts in the next 4-5 years, and the uncertainty of the cap...there's no way we could make a long term commitment to a player over 30.

Furthermore, even if we could have somehow kept Hossa for ~5.3, we still have to move more than just Flip to fit that in. A more realistic number for a short term deal for Hossa would be 6.5-7 million. So: Flip, Cleary, & Kronwall (or something similar) for Hossa and 2 scrubs is a better comparison.

[RedWingAbner]

Franzen is very much being paid on potential. Perhaps even more so than Flip. Remember, Franzen's deal is for 11 years. There is considerable projection in making that kind of commitment. Who knows what Mule will be like in 5-8-10 years. Who knows what the cap will be like. Franzen's SALARY this year is $5.5 million. Flip's is $2.5. What they will make in the future (and thus what their cap hit works out to) is based entirely on projection.

Which leads me to those saying keeping Flip cost us Hossa. I didn't bother reading the poll, as the premise is ludicrous. With Franzen and Zetterberg both on 10+ year deals, and the prospect of needing to replace Lidstrom soon (and probably Rafalski as well), and many other players needing new contracts in the next 4-5 years, and the uncertainty of the cap...there's no way we could make a long term commitment to a player over 30.

Furthermore, even if we could have somehow kept Hossa for ~5.3, we still have to move more than just Flip to fit that in. A more realistic number for a short term deal for Hossa would be 6.5-7 million. So: Flip, Cleary, & Kronwall (or something similar) for Hossa and 2 scrubs is a better comparison.

Not really. He's already but up 34 goals in a season. Cap hit is what matters when determining the roster.

Other than that, I tend to agree with your post. However, I think that if the Wings signed Hossa to another short-term deal (1 year at 6, perhaps) it would be Flip, Bertuzzi, Williams gone.

[superstarsingh]

Not really. He's already but up 34 goals in a season. Cap hit is what matters when determining the roster.

Other than that, I tend to agree with your post. However, I think that if the Wings signed Hossa to another short-term deal (1 year at 6, perhaps) it would be Flip, Bertuzzi, Williams gone.

So the Wings would sign Hossa to another one year deal and trade Flip away to keep Hossa for one more year?

[RedWingAbner]

So the Wings would sign Hossa to another one year deal and trade Flip away to keep Hossa for one more year?

No. At the conclusion of that additional deal, the Wings would re-evaluate and Nick Lidstrom would decide if he was coming back. Then, you go forward on a possible longer-term deal.

And honestly, I would trade Flip away to keep Hossa for one more year. Is there a button we can push to do that?