6th Defenseman

[Jesusberg 1,256]

I love the enthusiasm about watching and waiting to see what moves are and aren't made to improve the Wings' roster. It's great and is another example of the Wings having the best fan base in the world.

But there is a reality that must be faced, which most of the posters in this thread will consider a travesty.

The #6 defenseman on the 2010-11 Red Wings, at least to start the season, will be one of three players:

Jonathan Ericsson, Jakub Kindl, or Derek Meech.

I thought the same thing at first, and I would have continued if Holland hadn't said he was looking for a #6 guy. I'd like to see Sutton or Exelby, but Sutton may want too much $ and Exelby has had some serious injury issues. Either guy is a beast when it comes to dishing out punishment and clearing the net, something Detroit sorely lacks.

[LeftWinger 4,961]

I dunno, Holland seems to like skilled forwards but always seems to have a fairly tough defense man corps. Kronwall and Stuart might be the hardest hitting pairing in the league. Lilja used to be tough, didn't fight a lot but could when he had too and then theres Ericcson who I think might start playing meaner and less pretty since he had a bad season.

We had Lilja, who could fight small heavyweight type fighters when he needed to and with him gone i could really see Kenny signing a guy like Exelby. Same price range, toughness upgrade and Holland has said he wants a tougher team to play against. Exelby or Boynton are fine by my standards.

Well, all that I know about Exelby is what I read in this thread and what I can look up at hockey-reference.com. Since you never know when the next hit on Lilja is the last one and Lebda and Meech pretty much are NOT what this team needs, he would be a nice #6 d-man. Especially id Ericsson steps it back up, we'd have two d-lines that would be simply punishing and then Nick and Rafalski would handle the scoring... I am still not sure Kindl is gonna make it though, even with all the injuries and defensive issues this team had last year, he was given a couple of chances and couldn't hold a spot on the roster, not even for a week or two. I was at the Edmonton game he played in and he absolutely look horrible...

Edited June 7, 2010 by LeftWinger

[Drake_Marcus 890]

I actually think ericsson can handle himself quite fine

Ericsson's fighting is pretty dependent on just being bigger than the other guy. He's not really capable of going toe to toe with heavy weights even though he's got the size to. Sure he can manhandle a ***** like Perry but he'd get murdered by a real fighter.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Ericsson's fighting is pretty dependent on just being bigger than the other guy. He's not really capable of going toe to toe with heavy weights even though he's got the size to. Sure he can manhandle a ***** like Perry but he'd get murdered by a real fighter.

He didn't get murdered by Clowe, and Clowe is a great fighter who can beat heavyweights.

[redwingfan19 293]

Ericsson's fighting is pretty dependent on just being bigger than the other guy. He's not really capable of going toe to toe with heavy weights even though he's got the size to. Sure he can manhandle a ***** like Perry but he'd get murdered by a real fighter.

i think as ericsson gets in more fights he will become more and more comfortable doing it, then with his size he could reach heavy weight status

[Drake_Marcus 890]

I love the enthusiasm about watching and waiting to see what moves are and aren't made to improve the Wings' roster. It's great and is another example of the Wings having the best fan base in the world.

But there is a reality that must be faced, which most of the posters in this thread will consider a travesty.

The #6 defenseman on the 2010-11 Red Wings, at least to start the season, will be one of three players:

Jonathan Ericsson, Jakub Kindl, or Derek Meech.

Ericsson already has a spot in the top six.

Kindl would have to play himself into a trade to be outside of the top seven.

Meech is going to be offered a contract and his feistiness, versatility and two-way ability could potentially bring him as high as 5th on the depth chart if he plays his best game every night.

For any new defensemen to be brought in, it would have to involve a trade of one of these three players, or a long-term injury to someone in the top four.

All three of Ericsson/Kindl/Meech have solid offensive skills and good secondary talents, they just need to fully develop their skills and round out their games. Ericsson and Kindl can be top-pairing defensemen in this league, and Meech can be a good all-around second-pairing defenseman who could be used in pretty much any situation. Think about Kyle Quincey. Meech consistently showed better all-around potential than Quincey in the AHL and played better in the NHL in the limited minutes each were given as call-ups in 2006-07 and 2007-08.

It is not unreasonable to think that Meech, who has played better now than he did in 2007-08, is still a better player than Quincey (Colorado's #1 defenseman, and he plays on top PP and PK units) and could still outperform him, if he were given a regular role.

It also makes you think more about the Lebda suck factor. Lebda truly sucked. This is a known fact. If Meech had been playing instead of Lebda (like I have advocated for a LONG time) would the team have performed better defensively? Quite likely. So adios Brett, enjoy whatever bottom tier team needs a speedy defenseman who can't hold on to the puck and doesn't play defense well.

So...

Ericsson

Pros:Huge, moderate physical game, cannon shot, decent passer.

Cons: Needs to improve defensively and be more aggressive physically.

Kindl

Pros: Good size, offensively very skilled, good skater.

Cons: Also needs defensive improvement and to add more aggressive physical game.

Meech

Pros: Slick skater with good speed, offensively aware, defensively capable.

Cons: On the smaller side, although he can play aggressively he can often be outmuscled.

There's your #5-#7 defensemen.

Ericsson's got a very good first pass ability when he's confident. His biggest problem is that he's a gambler at heart and is willing to take risks when his job is to play a simple game. He definitely plays better hockey when he's getting more minutes as he's just not in the mold of a simple 3rd pairing guy like Lilja.

[Jesusberg 1,256]

My wishlist would be one of the following:

Sutton, Seidenberg, Wallin or Exelby

[titanium2 867]

My wishlist would be one of the following:

Sutton, Seidenberg, Wallin or Exelby

Well you can cross Seidenberg off your list now right?

[Jesusberg 1,256]

Well you can cross Seidenberg off your list now right?

Yep, the site I was looking at UFA's on didn't have his new contract. My bad.

[jollymania 162]

Sutton as the 5th, there might need to be a trade

[stevkrause 1,247]

I'd love to see Exelby here, but for some reason, I just don't see him taking less than 1.5 and I think that might price him out of our reach, unless a trade is made, or we get that gritty 4th liner at a very reasonable price and this would ensure that Miller, Meech and Lilja are all gone (Meech and Miller qualified, then waived and sent down or claimed OR traded)

Lets say for arguments sake, that we pick up a guy like Brad Winchester at the same tag he was at last year (800k) we'd be looking at this -

lines are arbitrary and this is not a line-combo post - it's just easier to format it this way to save space:

Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Johan Franzen ($3.955m)

Jiri Hudler ($2.875m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Tomas Holmstrom ($1.875m)

Todd Bertuzzi ($1.500m) / Justin Abdelkader ($0.920m) / Daniel Cleary ($2.800m)

Brad Winchester ($0.800m) / Darren Helm ($0.630m) / Patrick Eaves ($0.550m)

Kris Draper ($1.583m)

Mattias Ritola ($0.517m)

Nicklas Lidstrom ($6.200m) / Brian Rafalski ($6.000m)

Brad Stuart ($3.750m) / Niklas Kronwall ($3.000m)

Jonathan Ericsson ($0.900m) / Garnett Exelby ($1.500m)

Jakub Kindl ($0.883m)

Jimmy Howard ($0.717m) / Chris Osgood ($1.417m)

ROSTER: 23; CAP: $58.0m; PAYROLL: $58.155m; CAP ROOM: $-0.155m BONUSES: $0.000m

So looking at this, unless the cap goes up by more than projected, or we're able to cut another 155k (keep in mind Abdelkader, Helm, and Eaves qualifying offers cannot go lower and even those players might get a bigger raise than that - I could see Eaves and Helm both wanting closer to 750k or more and possibly getting arbitration with the years they had)

So... unless we can get say Winchester (or similar style player) for less and maybe a bigger discount from Exelby(which I don't think he'll take) this might be out of our reach... but that does look like a damn good roster...

Edited June 7, 2010 by stevkrause

[Buppy 1,720]

I'd love to see Exelby here, but for some reason, I just don't see him taking less than 1.5 and I think that might price him out of our reach, unless a trade is made, or we get that gritty 4th liner at a very reasonable price and this would ensure that Miller, Meech and Lilja are all gone (Meech and Miller qualified, then waived and sent down or claimed OR traded)

Lets say for arguments sake, that we pick up a guy like Brad Winchester at the same tag he was at last year (800k) we'd be looking at this -

lines are arbitrary and this is not a line-combo post - it's just easier to format it this way to save space:

Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Johan Franzen ($3.955m)

Jiri Hudler ($2.875m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Tomas Holmstrom ($1.875m)

Todd Bertuzzi ($1.500m) / Justin Abdelkader ($0.920m) / Daniel Cleary ($2.800m)

Brad Winchester ($0.800m) / Darren Helm ($0.630m) / Patrick Eaves ($0.550m)

Kris Draper ($1.583m)

Mattias Ritola ($0.517m)

Nicklas Lidstrom ($6.200m) / Brian Rafalski ($6.000m)

Brad Stuart ($3.750m) / Niklas Kronwall ($3.000m)

Jonathan Ericsson ($0.900m) / Garnett Exelby ($1.500m)

Jakub Kindl ($0.883m)

Jimmy Howard ($0.717m) / Chris Osgood ($1.417m)

ROSTER: 23; CAP: $58.0m; PAYROLL: $58.155m; CAP ROOM: $-0.155m BONUSES: $0.000m

So looking at this, unless the cap goes up by more than projected, or we're able to cut another 155k (keep in mind Abdelkader, Helm, and Eaves qualifying offers cannot go lower and even those players might get a bigger raise than that - I could see Eaves and Helm both wanting closer to 750k or more and possibly getting arbitration with the years they had)

So... unless we can get say Winchester (or similar style player) for less and maybe a bigger discount from Exelby(which I don't think he'll take) this might be out of our reach... but that does look like a damn good roster...

It would be pretty tight, but I think there's a decent chance it could work. We've heard the cap could go up to as high as $58.8, and we'd probably need all of that.

Technically, the RFA contracts could be lower, and I wouldn't be too surprised if Abby does come cheaper than that. But as you said, Eaves and Helm will likely be higher. Exelby might go a little lower, but probably not much. Bert, or more realistically someone else like Miller or Nystrom, could get that spot for less. And finally, we might take a chance on sending Ritola down if he can't earn a regular spot.

And those line combos are terrible.

FORWARDS

Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Johan Franzen ($3.955m)

Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m) / Jiri Hudler ($2.875m) / Daniel Cleary ($2.800m)

Tomas Holmstrom ($1.875m) / Kris Draper ($1.583m) / * Darren Helm ($0.900m)

* Eric Nystrom ($0.900m) / * Justin Abdelkader ($0.900m) / * Brad Winchester ($0.800m)

* Patrick Eaves ($0.800m) / Mattias Ritola ($0.517m)

DEFENSEMEN

Nicklas Lidstrom ($6.200m) / Brian Rafalski ($6.000m)

Brad Stuart ($3.750m) / Niklas Kronwall ($3.000m)

* Garnet Exelby ($1.400m) / Jonathan Ericsson ($0.900m)

Jakub Kindl ($0.883m)

GOALTENDERS

Chris Osgood ($1.417m) / Jimmy Howard ($0.717m)

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS

(these totals are compiled using the bonus cushion)

ROSTER: 23; CAP: $58.8m; PAYROLL: $57.955m; CAP ROOM: $0.845m BONUSES: $0.000m

[stevkrause 1,247]

It would be pretty tight, but I think there's a decent chance it could work. We've heard the cap could go up to as high as $58.8, and we'd probably need all of that.

Technically, the RFA contracts could be lower, and I wouldn't be too surprised if Abby does come cheaper than that. But as you said, Eaves and Helm will likely be higher. Exelby might go a little lower, but probably not much. Bert, or more realistically someone else like Miller or Nystrom, could get that spot for less. And finally, we might take a chance on sending Ritola down if he can't earn a regular spot.

that's the problem though - the RFA's can't earn less than that, there is a qualifying clause in the CBA, that players coming off of an entry level contract must be qualified with at least a 10% raise - that's my understanding of the CBA... so all of our RFA's WOULD get a raise, regardless... plus, you really can't risk waiving Ritola unless you don't care that you will lose him for nothing, because another team WILL claim him...

[Buppy 1,720]

that's the problem though - the RFA's can't earn less than that, there is a qualifying clause in the CBA, that players coming off of an entry level contract must be qualified with at least a 10% raise - that's my understanding of the CBA... so all of our RFA's WOULD get a raise, regardless... plus, you really can't risk waiving Ritola unless you don't care that you will lose him for nothing, because another team WILL claim him...

The automatic raise is for qualifying offers only. There is no rule that says the contract has to be for that value though. For proof look no further than Ritola. $511,667 last year, as an RFA goes up to just $516,667. His salary actually goes down from $535k to $500k. Also, Leino got $850k his first deal, then signed as an RFA for $800k for his current contract. Also, though I'm not sure and I don't feel like looking, I think the qualifying offer raises are based on salary, not cap hit/bonuses. Abby's salary this year was only $710k.

That said, since these are guys we're definitely hoping to keep, Helm and Eaves would certainly be higher (and I did bump them up). Abby though I think will get anywhere from $800k-1M.

As far as Ritola goes, since he has a two-way deal for next year, I think the team would be willing to risk losing him, maybe even planning to risk it if he can't win a regular spot. Not saying I agree with it, just pointing out that his position on next season's roster seems far from secure.

Edited June 7, 2010 by Buppy

[stevkrause 1,247]

The automatic raise is for qualifying offers only. There is no rule that says the contract has to be for that value though. For proof look no further than Ritola. $511,667 last year, as an RFA goes up to just $516,667. His salary actually goes down from $535k to $500k. Also, Leino got $850k his first deal, then signed as an RFA for $800k for his current contract. Also, though I'm not sure and I don't feel like looking, I think the qualifying offer raises are based on salary, not cap hit/bonuses. Abby's salary this year was only $710k.

That said, since these are guys we're definitely hoping to keep, Helm and Eaves would certainly be higher (and I did bump them up). Abby though I think will get anywhere from $800k-1M.

As far as Ritola goes, since he has a two-way deal for next year, I think the team would be willing to risk losing him, maybe even planning to risk it if he can't win a regular spot. Not saying I agree with it, just pointing out that his position on next season's roster seems far from secure.

If that's the case, that saves us a little cap space, but back to the point at hand... I still don't know if we could get Exelby for the cap space we will have... although, I sure would like to see some magic pulled by Holland and co to make it happen...

[Buppy 1,720]

If that's the case, that saves us a little cap space, but back to the point at hand... I still don't know if we could get Exelby for the cap space we will have... although, I sure would like to see some magic pulled by Holland and co to make it happen...

Yeah, I think we'd need the full $2 million cap raise that's been speculated, and even then it might only be possible by not signing Bert. Though I'd much rather have Exelby + Miller than Bert + Meech (for example).

[magicaldatsyuk 6]

i dont think that sutton is in our price range considering he made 3.5 mil last year

[Guest zackmorris]

Fans around here should be less concerned with bruisers, and more concerned with having a 6th dman who doesn't make defensive mistakes or turn it over. Because that's what we seem to be most sensitive about. We could sign the bastard child of Dion Phaneuf and an elephant on steroids, and he could hit people through the boards and into 5th row. If he turned the puck over every 10 minutes and caused scoring chances, and we lost games because of him, we wouldn't care.

But if we had a smart 6th defenseman, who contributed nothing on offense but rarely made a dumb mistake and just made the smart but boring play, we'd probably ***** that he doesn't make enough plays or something but compare this guy, to the Elephaneuf and ask yourself which one we'd want more.

We hate (some of us passionately and violently) Brett Lebda, and it isn't because he can't hit.

I'm OK with whoever we get as long as he stays in position, and makes good outlet passes. Make sure the dude has vision, and can get the puck to the right guy. No forcing it. I see that from so many other teams and it's probably because I'm spoiled and get to watch the slickest passing team in hockey.

I trust the front office will properly evaluate whoever they've got their eyes on. They aren't as busy as other seasons.

And there's no way we'll be overpaying for the guy, so some guys mentioned here should just be zapped from our collective memory. If we want to pay 'em to f*** the dog then we should just turn on our Xboxen and do it digitally.

Edited June 8, 2010 by zackmorris

[newfy 695]

Fans around here should be less concerned with bruisers, and more concerned with having a 6th dman who doesn't make defensive mistakes or turn it over. Because that's what we seem to be most sensitive about. We could sign the bastard child of Dion Phaneuf and an elephant on steroids, and he could hit people through the boards and into 5th row. If he turned the puck over every 10 minutes and caused scoring chances, and we lost games because of him, we wouldn't care.

But if we had a smart 6th defenseman, who contributed nothing on offense but rarely made a dumb mistake and just made the smart but boring play, we'd probably ***** that he doesn't make enough plays or something but compare this guy, to the Elephaneuf and ask yourself which one we'd want more.

We hate (some of us passionately and violently) Brett Lebda, and it isn't because he can't hit.

I'm OK with whoever we get as long as he stays in position, and makes good outlet passes. Make sure the dude has vision, and can get the puck to the right guy. No forcing it. I see that from so many other teams and it's probably because I'm spoiled and get to watch the slickest passing team in hockey.

I trust the front office will properly evaluate whoever they've got their eyes on. They aren't as busy as other seasons.

And there's no way we'll be overpaying for the guy, so some guys mentioned here should just be zapped from our collective memory. If we want to pay 'em to f*** the dog then we should just turn on our Xboxen and do it digitally.

You cant have a guy like Lidstrom as our 6th guy. Anyone we get at that price range is going to make mistakes its the way the NHL is. Do you remember when Lilja was first here?

[stevkrause 1,247]

You cant have a guy like Lidstrom as our 6th guy. Anyone we get at that price range is going to make mistakes its the way the NHL is. Do you remember when Lilja was first here?

I think the point is, someone who makes minimal mistakes and I agree with that 100% - the difference is, that there's nothing wrong with us wanting a guy that can make minimal mistakes, block shots, be good defensively AND clear the crease and throw some big hits for 1.5 a year on the 3rd pairing... if Lilja had never been injured, that's what he was... and at less than 1.5 at that... I have recently joined the Exelby camp and would really like to see him acquired if he can be brought on at a reasonable price

In order of what I'd like to see:

Garnett Exelby - ≤1.5

Nick Boynton - ≤1.5

Andreas Lilja - ≤1.2

Niclas Wallin - ≤1

Brad Lukowich <1

Francis Bouillon <1

[Hockeytown0001 7,652]

Obviously now, Holland can't indulge Dennis Seidenberg's wish to become a Wing.

[Wings_Fan_In_Exile 3]

exelby is a guy I've wanted on the wings for a while ever since he laid out sundin. I think he would be the perfect 6th defenseman for this team.

I also think he would come at a very reasonable price 1M-1.2M range.

Man, if he's defensively responsible, I'd love him on the Wings.

[mjlegend 155]

Exelby? Nah. Johnny Boychuk is composed entirely of win.

[HomeNugget 2]

I wouldn't mind going after Ruslan Salei. He'll play with an edge, and he's never won the cup, so he'll be motivated. He made $3.275 last season, but he's 35 and coming off an injury, so I think Kenny could snag him for around $1.

[newfy 695]

I wouldn't mind going after Ruslan Salei. He'll play with an edge, and he's never won the cup, so he'll be motivated. He made $3.275 last season, but he's 35 and coming off an injury, so I think Kenny could snag him for around $1.

There are guys who are much younger, play with more of an edge and are probably just as good defensively. Salei wouldn't be awful but there is better options out there.