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somehow, we need to get a scoring third line center...


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#1 blueadams

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 10:00 PM

In my opinion, this team had three main problems last season: #1) It didn't have a third line that could produce points. #2) It didn't have a 'real' grind line (e.g. physical). And #3) The defensive pairings.

...I think that the first problem boils down to the fact that we've had 4th line centers on the third line. i love helm, i love abby, and i love miller, but none of those guys have the hands to center a scoring line. either bring in a scoring third line center, or bring in a scoring wing and move flip to the third line (probably easier). free agency, trade, or whatever, i don't know, but it doesn't seem like it'd be impossible. any ideas? maybe ritola's ready? if we don't resign eaves and miller, then we might have enough cap-space to work something out...or we could involve them in a deal?

...I like Helm centering the grind line. he's not big, but he definitely brings a physical presence to the table. and his superb defense will allow us to get away with a bigger stronger wing on the right side. I really like having Abby flank the grind line. that's really where he belongs anyways. think maltby-draper here. then all we've got to do is bring in a nice big strong cheap hard-hitting wing that fights. think may, but bringing a little more skill to the table. i love eaves and i love miller, but these guys don't really bring that much to the table. we need someone more physical here.

Franzen-Zetterberg-Bertuzzi
Hudler-Datsyuk-Holmstrom
???-Filppula-Cleary
Abdelkader-Helm-???
Draper
(Ritola)

Lidstrom-Kronwall
Stuart-Rafalski
Kindl-Ericsson
Lilja/???
(Janik)

...i think that we need to seperate lidstrom and raffy. #1) neither of these guys like going into the boards anymore. teams dump against our first line without hesitation. its embarrasing. split them up with the more physical kronner and stuie. #2) both of these guys are tremendous shooters...and raffy defers to nick too much. he needs to be taking more shots. kindl-ericsson might work, might not. we'll have lilja or someone similar in case it doesn't.

Howard
Osgood

Edited by blueadams, 15 June 2010 - 11:25 AM.


#2 13dangledangle

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 10:20 PM

In my opinion, this team had three main problems last season: #1) It didn't have a third line that could produce points. #2) It didn't have a 'real' grind line (e.g. physical). And #3) The defensive pairings.

...I think that the first problem boils down to the fact that we've had 4th line centers on the third line. i love helm, i love abby, and i love miller, but none of those guys have the hands to center a scoring line. either bring in a scoring third line center, or bring in a scoring wing and move flip to the third line (probably easier). free agency, trade, or whatever, i don't know, but it doesn't seem like it'd be impossible. any ideas? maybe ritola's ready? if we don't resign eaves and miller, then we might have enough cap-space to work something out...or we could involve them in a deal?

...I like Helm centering the grind line. he's not big, but he definitely brings a physical presence to the table. and his superb defense will allow us to get away with a bigger stronger wing on the right side. I really like having Abby flank the grind line. that's really where he belongs anyways. think maltby-draper here. then all we've got to do is bring in a nice big strong cheap hard-hitting wing that fights. think may, but bringing a little more skill to the table. i love eaves and i love miller, but these guys don't really bring that much to the table. we need someone more physical here.

Franzen-Datsyuk-Holmstrom
Hudler-Zetterberg-Bertuzzi
???-Filppula-Cleary
Abdelkader-Helm-???
Draper
(Ritola)

Lidstrom-Kronwall
Stuart-Rafalski
Kindl-Ericsson
Lilja/???
(Janik)

...i think that we need to seperate lidstrom and raffy. #1) neither of these guys like going into the boards anymore. teams dump against our first line without hesitation. its embarrasing. split them up with the more physical kronner and stuie. #2) both of these guys are tremendous shooters...and raffy defers to nick too much. he needs to be taking more shots. kindl-ericsson might work, might not. we'll have lilja or someone similar in case it doesn't.

Howard
Osgood


Line thread...I'll bite


First of all Ill start by saying that I wouldnt call Lids and Raffy embarrassing, they are one of the best defensive pairings of all time. Also I believe your 3rd line scores would most likely be made if we acquire a second line scorer that drops some 2nd line back.

For example purposes:

Franzen-Datsyuk-Holmstrom
Flippula-Zetterberg-Afinogenov
Bertuzzi-Abdelkader-Hudler
Cleary-Helm-Eaves or Ritola like him too
Draper

.......with this you get 2 awesome score lines, a 3rd that should put up some goals for sure, while Bert and Abby dish out some "grit" and line 4 being about speed and hard work all the while netting a few in the process.

Edited by 13dangledangle, 14 June 2010 - 10:21 PM.

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#3 Detroit # 1 Fan

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 10:24 PM

Rather just move Abby to the 3rd line and re-sign Eaves and another 4th line guy. Healthy we have lots of offence.

And it annoys me when people just throw Franzen on Datsyuks line always. Franzen has never played well with Datsyuk, he played the best game of his life with Zetterberg, he was part of the best line in the 09 playoffs with Zetterberg and Cleary. And back in 08 his redonky scoring spree was with Filpulla. Keep him away from Datsyuk, put Franzen with Z.

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#4 Datsyukian Geek

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 10:25 PM

We wouldn't be having this talk if Flip would turn it on the way he was supposed to. He showed very brief flashes last season, especially near the end when The Big 3 (Z-flip-Bert) really got rolling. Even then, he hasn't come on the way he was expected to. My eye is on him hard this season, and I'm not sure what I'll think of him if he just has another so-so season...

#5 Swayze

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 10:33 PM

Could it be that we didn't have a productive 3rd line because they were all filling in for top 6 injuries? Hmmm.....



(the answer is yes)

#6 EZBAKETHAGANGSTA

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 10:47 PM

Line thread...I'll bite


First of all Ill start by saying that I wouldnt call Lids and Raffy embarrassing, they are one of the best defensive pairings of all time. Also I believe your 3rd line scores would most likely be made if we acquire a second line scorer that drops some 2nd line back.

For example purposes:

Franzen-Datsyuk-Holmstrom
Flippula-Zetterberg-Afinogenov
Bertuzzi-Abdelkader-Hudler
Cleary-Helm-Eaves or Ritola like him too
Draper

.......with this you get 2 awesome score lines, a 3rd that should put up some goals for sure, while Bert and Abby dish out some "grit" and line 4 being about speed and hard work all the while netting a few in the process.

I love how people have Hudler on the 3rd line but Filppula on the 2nd line... lets be real, Babcock may like Filppula better, and he may be a better overall player, but he is far better suited centering the third line than a 2nd line winger, especially if our big accuistion is someone who never shoots like Afinogenov.
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#7 blueadams

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 11:00 PM

look...

its going to be impossible to get a third line center that can score AND play the kind of defense that babcock requires with our limited cap-space. its gotta be flip.

Franzen-Datsyuk-Holmstrom
Hudler-Zetterberg-Bertuzzi
???-Filppula-Cleary
Abdelkader-Helm-???

#8 mjtm77

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 11:13 PM

is filpula not a good third line center?
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#9 hooon

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 11:17 PM

I'll play too, I'm not driving.

I wouldn't mind seeing something like:

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Holmstrom
Hudler-Flip-Franzen
Bertuzzi-Helm-Cleary
Eaves-Abby-???
Draper/Ritola
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#10 rick zombo

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 11:31 PM

Babcock has said that he likes both Abby and Helm at center. He doesn't want to play Abby on Helm's wing and vice versa. Just keep that in mind when posting these line combos.

Mind you, things could change......
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#11 Konnan511

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 12:16 AM

We wouldn't be having this talk if Flip would turn it on the way he was supposed to. He showed very brief flashes last season, especially near the end when The Big 3 (Z-flip-Bert) really got rolling. Even then, he hasn't come on the way he was expected to. My eye is on him hard this season, and I'm not sure what I'll think of him if he just has another so-so season...

Guess which Red Wing gets paid the same as Flip, scored fewer points, and played more games last year... He was our problem not a player who had one of the higher PPG ratios on the team last year.
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#12 Crymson

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 12:38 AM

Guess which Red Wing gets paid the same as Flip, scored fewer points, and played more games last year... He was our problem not a player who had one of the higher PPG ratios on the team last year.


Are you referring to the guy who played the entire season with a doubly-torn meniscus?

#13 Z and D for the C

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 12:56 AM

He showed very brief flashes last season


I guess it depends on how you define brief. I GUESS you could call the 33 games where he accumulated 28 points brief. Me on the other hand...

And all I'm saying is...I don't think it's a coincidence they chose Flip to be placed under the "Pride. Passion. Commitment" header on the Wing's opening page... http://redwings.nhl.com/ :ph34r:

Edited by Z and D for the C, 15 June 2010 - 12:57 AM.

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#14 dragonballgtz

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 01:40 AM

Babs is to stubborn to mix and match players. He only does it after a few craptastic games in which he thinks we need more energy. This is the one big gripe I have with Babs coaching, too use to Bowman switching people on the fly.

I completely agree about the defense pairings needing to be mixed up. You can't ask for much more (maybe a full season) then what Flip brings to the 3rd line center role. My lines:

Franzen-Zetterberg-Cleary
Hudler-Datsyuk-Bertuzzi
Abby-Flip-Holmstrom
Draper-Helm-Eaves

Or you can stack more firepower with:
Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Franzen
Hudler-Flip-Bertuzzi
Holmstrom-Abby-Cleary
Draper-Helm-Eaves


No matter what happens I think Babs needs to take a page out of Bowmans book and switch people when necessary during the game.

EDIT: Its almost 3am so my thoughts might be all over the place sorry :P

Edited by dragonballgtz, 15 June 2010 - 01:41 AM.


#15 titanium2

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 03:08 AM

And all I'm saying is...I don't think it's a coincidence they chose Flip to be placed under the "Pride. Passion. Commitment" header on the Wing's opening page... http://redwings.nhl.com/ :ph34r:


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#16 Buppy

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 04:04 AM

In my opinion, this team had three main problems last season: #1) It didn't have a third line that could produce points. #2) It didn't have a 'real' grind line (e.g. physical). And #3) The defensive pairings.

...I think that the first problem boils down to the fact that we've had 4th line centers on the third line. i love helm, i love abby, and i love miller, but none of those guys have the hands to center a scoring line. either bring in a scoring third line center, or bring in a scoring wing and move flip to the third line (probably easier). free agency, trade, or whatever, i don't know, but it doesn't seem like it'd be impossible. any ideas? maybe ritola's ready? if we don't resign eaves and miller, then we might have enough cap-space to work something out...or we could involve them in a deal?

...I like Helm centering the grind line. he's not big, but he definitely brings a physical presence to the table. and his superb defense will allow us to get away with a bigger stronger wing on the right side. I really like having Abby flank the grind line. that's really where he belongs anyways. think maltby-draper here. then all we've got to do is bring in a nice big strong cheap hard-hitting wing that fights. think may, but bringing a little more skill to the table. i love eaves and i love miller, but these guys don't really bring that much to the table. we need someone more physical here.

Franzen-Datsyuk-Holmstrom
Hudler-Zetterberg-Bertuzzi
???-Filppula-Cleary
Abdelkader-Helm-???
Draper
(Ritola)
...


Assuming a cap of $58.8M, once we sign Helm, Abdelkader and Bert, we'd have probably $2.5-3M left for your two wishlist forwards. It's possible, but unlikely, that we could get what you're looking for at that price. Even if we could, we'd still have a suspect 2nd line, 3rd pair on D, and no cap space to address either at the deadline. (And that's assuming no major injury issues, and no problems in goal.)

A lot of people keep talking about having a 3rd scoring line, but it just isn't feasible in the cap era. More to the point, no one else has that either, so we don't need it. People say things like 'depth is what wins in the playoffs'. But that's only true if the rest of the team does it's job. A good 3rd line might put you over the edge, but it's not going to make up for a crappy 2nd line.

We just need occasional scoring from the bottom 6. More importantly, we need timely scoring. Guys who will work their asses off and get that big goal in a tight game. We can get that easy, and still have cap space left for other improvements. Draper-Helm-Eaves put up 30 goals last year. Miller added another 10. Abby has some decent upside. At least one of Flip, Happy, or Cleary will play on the third line (at least with a healthy roster). Ritola may even be able to contribute.

IMO, Cleary and Eaves are perfect 3rd line wingers, and Abby has the tools to become a perfect 3rd line center (but he'll probably need a couple years). All have some decent offensive upside, good speed, good defense, physical play, and for Eaves and Abby (at the moment at least) they're cheap. Helm doesn't have hands, but his speed makes up for it to some degree. He's good enough for the moment, and maybe he'll even surprise us.

Adding someone like Nystrom would be ideal for the 4th line, even as a replacement for Miller. Adding two like him would be better if they came cheap enough. And that would leave a good amount of space for other uses.

FORWARDS
Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Tomas Holmstrom ($1.875m)
Jiri Hudler ($2.875m) / Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m) / Johan Franzen ($3.955m)
Daniel Cleary ($2.800m) / * Darren Helm ($0.900m) / * Patrick Eaves ($0.750m)
* Eric Nystrom ($0.800m) / * Justin Abdelkader ($0.900m) / Kris Draper ($1.583m)
Mattias Ritola ($0.517m)
DEFENSEMEN
Nicklas Lidstrom ($6.200m) / Brian Rafalski ($6.000m)
Brad Stuart ($3.750m) / Niklas Kronwall ($3.000m)
Jonathan Ericsson ($0.900m) / Jakub Kindl ($0.883m)
GOALTENDERS
Chris Osgood ($1.417m) / Jimmy Howard ($0.717m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS
(these totals are compiled using the bonus cushion)
ROSTER: 21; CAP:$58.8m; PAYROLL: $55.605m; CAP ROOM: $3.195m BONUSES: $0.000m

With that cap money we could add a decent defenseman, maybe Shaone Morrison for instance, or even someone like Lilja and another 4th line bruiser. Or save a decent chunk to pick up a $4M player at the deadline. Or trade someone like Flip or Happy and bring in an elite player.

That to me is a much better plan than bringing back Bert and another third-rate scorer a la Willy, which is all we can afford.

#17 blueadams

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 11:19 AM

If Babcock doesn't like playing Abby at the wing, then we need to trade one of those guys. Neither should be centering our third line. It kills production.

Franzen-Zetterberg-Bertuzzi
Hudler-Datsyuk-Holmstrom
???-Filppula-Cleary
Abdelkader-Helm-???

#18 Bring Back The Bruise Bros

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 11:29 AM

Franzen-Datsyuk-Holmstrom
Filppula-Zetterberg-Hudler
Cleary-Helm-?
?-Abdelkader-Eaves
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#19 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 12:13 PM

In my opinion, this team had three main problems last season: #1) It didn't have a third line that could produce points. #2) It didn't have a 'real' grind line (e.g. physical). And #3) The defensive pairings.

...I think that the first problem boils down to the fact that we've had 4th line centers on the third line. i love helm, i love abby, and i love miller, but none of those guys have the hands to center a scoring line. either bring in a scoring third line center, or bring in a scoring wing and move flip to the third line (probably easier). free agency, trade, or whatever, i don't know, but it doesn't seem like it'd be impossible. any ideas? maybe ritola's ready? if we don't resign eaves and miller, then we might have enough cap-space to work something out...or we could involve them in a deal?

...I like Helm centering the grind line. he's not big, but he definitely brings a physical presence to the table. and his superb defense will allow us to get away with a bigger stronger wing on the right side. I really like having Abby flank the grind line. that's really where he belongs anyways. think maltby-draper here. then all we've got to do is bring in a nice big strong cheap hard-hitting wing that fights. think may, but bringing a little more skill to the table. i love eaves and i love miller, but these guys don't really bring that much to the table. we need someone more physical here.

Franzen-Zetterberg-Bertuzzi
Hudler-Datsyuk-Holmstrom
???-Filppula-Cleary
Abdelkader-Helm-???
Draper
(Ritola)

Lidstrom-Kronwall
Stuart-Rafalski
Kindl-Ericsson
Lilja/???
(Janik)

...i think that we need to seperate lidstrom and raffy. #1) neither of these guys like going into the boards anymore. teams dump against our first line without hesitation. its embarrasing. split them up with the more physical kronner and stuie. #2) both of these guys are tremendous shooters...and raffy defers to nick too much. he needs to be taking more shots. kindl-ericsson might work, might not. we'll have lilja or someone similar in case it doesn't.

Howard
Osgood


i like your idea, as pretty much ALL wings teams that won the cup had 3 and 1. i personally think ritola should be given a shot on your 3rd scoring line. he's a smart player with great hands. eaves can be re-signed and put on the 3rd line or i would go out on a limb and say andersson or callahan can show us what they got. but i see those 2 kickin ass in GR this season. i cant wait to see someone like landon ferraro on a line with helm and abby.

Edited by deeznutz, 15 June 2010 - 12:18 PM.

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#20 HankthaTank

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 12:26 PM

Well, to sum it up, this is the year that Flips has to do something. Babs said that he is obviously in a position to have to really step up. We have been waiting for it for a while now though. So we shall see what happens.
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